Still hands or moving hands

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janinek1981

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HELP!!

I know this has been asked before but Im still so confused.

So... I have a 6 year old mare whos not quite a year under saddle. Shes improving all the time, especially since I had a bit of help with her schooling from a lovely 2* event rider, who rode her and trained me for two months, she now is my main trainer.
We've just started jumping which is great but I feel Im losing the flatwork!!
Ive always struggled to get her in an outline (although walk and canter is better), even riding her forwards, very straight it will take a good half hour of constant riding before she comes good and its always a bit inconsistent when it does happen, whereas the lovely lady who schooled her for me gets it straight away. My horse is always very tense at the beginning of every ride and so even with the event rider she will have a very short neck (not held in just tense of her own doing) but its not nose stuck out like me.
She tells me to have my hands very still but elastic and a little wide. To ride her forwards and straight and in a regular rhythm and its these three things that she concentrates on. She is the quietest most patient rider I have ever seen and I like this as my mare is very quirky, backs off the contact and also the leg given half a chance as she is very backward thinking.
Now, I also have a lesson once a month from a visiting respected international dressage rider, who is trained regularly by a VERY famous dressage rider. Maybe having two trainers is the problem as I know that different methods may work for different horses but surely im going to have to be consistent whatever I do? This dressage trainer has told me to keep the bit moving in her mouth, "to never be doing nothing" and if she cant see my hands moving then Im not doing enough. Now surely she would only teach what she has been taught by this highly respected current dressage rider? So which is right?
I know that the eventer's method works as she gets my horse into a lovely consistent outline and looks like shes doing nothing! I get on and it takes me an age! When my horse does drop her head she tells me to hold my hands steady and allow her to stretch into my hands, not to give and not to resist.
They both say I should have (in the end) quite a firm contact but that this will take time, and having been a low level show rider beforehand on a different horse I was shocked to feel the contact that firm (especially as firm as the dressage rider has demonstrated by pulling the reins against me), feels like they're leaning on you! I now understand show and dressage riding to be VERY different though.

So in my heart Im thinking I should be doing what Ive been taught by the eventer but (and I know this sounds silly) I cant help but think that surely the dressage rider knows what shes talking about when she competes around the world and is clearly taught this by her trainer who you ALL know. The eventer competes BE 2* so not as high up but the method looks a lot kinder but might take longer? Feel I should also add that at no point has "sawing" on the mouth been advocated, a movement in the mouth to encourage the horse to lower has been advised, the rider is LOVELY, well respected and really loves her horses do not take this as her being cruel! It obviously is what works for her and her results cannot be ignored!!

What do you guys think?
Should I be sticking to the same trainer or is it ok to have several?
Should I be rewarding the lowering of the head by giving with my hands? How on earth do you then get the firm contact if you keep softening? Gradually take up the contact?
I find it difficult to keep my hands still without locking my elbows.. any tips for keeping my elbows flexible without moving my hands back and forth with the movement of the horses head?

Sorry for the massive question.. I really want to do things correctly as my mare is a youngster with hopefully a successful future in whichever sphere we go in.
:)
 
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You want the movement in your elbows. So soft and elastic. The hands themselves shouldn't "move" but in making them not move they will be moving. The elbows/hand should put pressure on and when horse softens you relax the pressure, but not the contact.

A good way to get your head around this is to close your fist, clench your hand muscles, and then relax them - now put something in your hand (like your reins) and then the pressure would be the clench, and the reward would be the relax of the muscles, but you'll see that the contact remains. (This is an example to show how you can do pressure and release without losing contact). True contact and relaxation comes from pushing from behind, half halt - lots of riders at that level will be half halting in different ways without even realising which helps to set up the horse for success and softness, they may also be helping the horse balance with the leg.

I think that the dressage rider has simplified for you, but in a confusing and not hugely helpful way. You want to be playing with the aids on your horse until they relax and move forwards into the contact, whether that be with the half halts with the arms, seat, leg etc or with asking for flexion and bend (where you'll see hands move most) or give and retake to test the connection and self carriage. They have simplified it to "keep the hands busy". Also note that some riders are much more "handsy" than others, which works for certain horses, but not others, and for some riders, but not others. This method will get results quickly, but may not be the best for you or the horse. The eventer sounds to be a bit more slow progress which leads to better all round horse (my method) but you need to understand how and why the rider rides like they do and how they do it. Be aware also that as a pro/am they will be more capable of getting the horse in the frame they want and they'll be better at holding the horse there (great for them and the horse, but might not help the horse gain self carriage if constantly held up).

If I get on a client's horse I can get it in a frame almost immediately. Some need more "faffing" - so flexing, encouraging down, playing with mouths on heavy cobs etc, but as soon as they relax and soften all of that stops and I'm soft and still with the hand. As I said earlier in this massive reply! you want all of this to come from the elbow and only the finer bits from the hand. Ensure your fingertips are always touching your palm so your contact is consitent.

I'd also recommend watching the dressage rider rider one of their horses and see if you like how they ride and how the horse seems to work. Some very good riders require complete control and do everything for the horse, whilst others prefer to improve the horse so it has to hold itself together. It's all a matter of style (I put myself in the second camp, and also in the camp of back to basics and do everything correctly and slowly so that you end up with a horse that is much much better and continues to be, giving you a solid foundation for the more complicated stuff and requiring it to think for itself quite a bit too)
 
Kylara said:
You want the movement in your elbows. So soft and elastic. The hands themselves shouldn't "move" but in making them not move they will be moving. The elbows/hand should put pressure on and when horse softens you relax the pressure, but not the contact.

A good way to get your head around this is to close your fist, clench your hand muscles, and then relax them - now put something in your hand (like your reins) and then the pressure would be the clench, and the reward would be the relax of the muscles, but you'll see that the contact remains. (This is an example to show how you can do pressure and release without losing contact). True contact and relaxation comes from pushing from behind, half halt - lots of riders at that level will be half halting in different ways without even realising which helps to set up the horse for success and softness, they may also be helping the horse balance with the leg.

I think that the dressage rider has simplified for you, but in a confusing and not hugely helpful way. You want to be playing with the aids on your horse until they relax and move forwards into the contact, whether that be with the half halts with the arms, seat, leg etc or with asking for flexion and bend (where you'll see hands move most) or give and retake to test the connection and self carriage. They have simplified it to "keep the hands busy". Also note that some riders are much more "handsy" than others, which works for certain horses, but not others, and for some riders, but not others. This method will get results quickly, but may not be the best for you or the horse. The eventer sounds to be a bit more slow progress which leads to better all round horse (my method) but you need to understand how and why the rider rides like they do and how they do it. Be aware also that as a pro/am they will be more capable of getting the horse in the frame they want and they'll be better at holding the horse there (great for them and the horse, but might not help the horse gain self carriage if constantly held up).

If I get on a client's horse I can get it in a frame almost immediately. Some need more "faffing" - so flexing, encouraging down, playing with mouths on heavy cobs etc, but as soon as they relax and soften all of that stops and I'm soft and still with the hand. As I said earlier in this massive reply! you want all of this to come from the elbow and only the finer bits from the hand. Ensure your fingertips are always touching your palm so your contact is consitent.

I'd also recommend watching the dressage rider rider one of their horses and see if you like how they ride and how the horse seems to work. Some very good riders require complete control and do everything for the horse, whilst others prefer to improve the horse so it has to hold itself together. It's all a matter of style (I put myself in the second camp, and also in the camp of back to basics and do everything correctly and slowly so that you end up with a horse that is much much better and continues to be, giving you a solid foundation for the more complicated stuff and requiring it to think for itself quite a bit too)
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Thank you so much!
This is really helpful. You couldnt really help doing a massive reply as I asked so many questions!!
I respect both riders hugely and I suspect both would work but its so tricky to do something different in a lesson than what youve been doing to keep that trainer "happy". That said I think I gain from both trainers so unless it starts to affect things lots I would like to stay with both.
Im a naturally tense person so I need to perfect this hand thing(!) otherwise I will have my horse backing off my contact forever and your first sentence really helps with this, thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail :)
 
Soft, still hands- the event rider sounds spot on, it's worth the long haul to learn to do it like that
 
Agree with the above. If your position is correct, the elbows bent and steady, it means that your hands can be soft. Thumbs on top and forward! So you can squeeze and release the hand but you have a consistent, steady and soft contact.

If you watch the top riders you will see that their hands appear to be completely still, no up and down, forwards or backwards and their elbows are bent, no straight arms in sight!
 
Orangehorse said:
Agree with the above. If your position is correct, the elbows bent and steady, it means that your hands can be soft. Thumbs on top and forward! So you can squeeze and release the hand but you have a consistent, steady and soft contact.

If you watch the top riders you will see that their hands appear to be completely still, no up and down, forwards or backwards and their elbows are bent, no straight arms in sight!
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Thank you :) The problem I have is that I could easily watch a video or someone in person and say whats right/wrong about how theyre riding, but its when I get on that Im not sure of how the correct way is meant to FEEL. Which is why I get people to video me so I can see what Im doing. Ill get it one day :)
 
I'm primarily with the event rider - and Kylara. The only thing I would add is that a teensy tweak - on one rein - can help with getting a relaxed outline. Young horses can sit on the bit - a little more leg is usually the best way to lighten them - but if the flexion is suffering - just a teensy tweak can help get the message through. Similarly, a teensy bit more 'give' on one rein (which rein depends on the flexion mainly - but sometimes the rein that should be the correct one doesn't get the result.) It should always be supported by the leg - so a teensy tweak on the right rein with a BIT more right leg if on the right rein - usually!)

It's about developing feel! Can you get LDO easily - that's the first step. You don't THROW the reins at her - just offer a little while pushing on. I usually start by offering the outside rein while giving a little extra inside leg. Obviously you need to move your hand forward to do that - as long as you know that you're doing it - and why you're doing it - that's fine. But remember the straight line from elbow - through hand - to bit.

It all starts from behind - that's what too many riders forget. You ask 'forward' and then remind it's at your pace. Too many riders START with hands.
 
Following with interest as I am having similar issues.

I cannot seem to stop faffing with my hands, it's really getting on my nerves. I know better core strength will help which I'm working on, but any other tips would be greatly received.
 
I wonder if you answered it a bit yourself in that you don't need to focus on your hands you need to think what your elbows are doing :). If they are straight and fixed in an effort to keep the hands still you are on a hiding to nothing.
 
I've had a lesson with someone who was trained by a well known dressage rider (probably the same one) and her method when showing me what she meant by playing with the reins can only be described as a jerk. I didn't like it at all, though when my horse is being argumentative I will give her a reminder, which is probably half the weight of the instructor's jerk, to not pull on me.
 
JanetGeorge said:
I'm primarily with the event rider - and Kylara. The only thing I would add is that a teensy tweak - on one rein - can help with getting a relaxed outline. Young horses can sit on the bit - a little more leg is usually the best way to lighten them - but if the flexion is suffering - just a teensy tweak can help get the message through. Similarly, a teensy bit more 'give' on one rein (which rein depends on the flexion mainly - but sometimes the rein that should be the correct one doesn't get the result.) It should always be supported by the leg - so a teensy tweak on the right rein with a BIT more right leg if on the right rein - usually!)

It's about developing feel! Can you get LDO easily - that's the first step. You don't THROW the reins at her - just offer a little while pushing on. I usually start by offering the outside rein while giving a little extra inside leg. Obviously you need to move your hand forward to do that - as long as you know that you're doing it - and why you're doing it - that's fine. But remember the straight line from elbow - through hand - to bit.

It all starts from behind - that's what too many riders forget. You ask 'forward' and then remind it's at your pace. Too many riders START with hands.
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Thank you this is really helpful.

I understand the tweak as I have kind of fell in between the two teaching methods and keep as still as possible but just very lightly squeeze one rein every now and then. The only difference to what you have said is that I tend to squeeze with both legs but a little more the inside and "catch" with the outside rein by clenching my outside hand. Ill try what you have said above and see what happens.
 
Sprat said:
Following with interest as I am having similar issues.

I cannot seem to stop faffing with my hands, it's really getting on my nerves. I know better core strength will help which I'm working on, but any other tips would be greatly received.
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How annoying is it!! My worst habit that I forgot to mention is letting the reins slip through my hands. Ive even got those horrid webbing reins so i can hold the notches and that way i know ive got them even and if they slip... they still do! I think when Im told to "soften" i end up letting go a bit and softening the grip??
 
janinek1981 said:
How annoying is it!! My worst habit that I forgot to mention is letting the reins slip through my hands. Ive even got those horrid webbing reins so i can hold the notches and that way i know ive got them even and if they slip... they still do! I think when Im told to "soften" i end up letting go a bit and softening the grip??
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Thank god it's not just me!! I had the webbed reins and I managed ok with them, but ended up accidentally breaking them, and now I feel that I constantly let the reins slip with normal rubber reins.

I'm almost tempted to mark in tip ex on the reins where I should be holding to keep a consistent contact :lol:

It is my biggest challenge at the moment. I have gone from having a horse who was SO heavy in the contact, to a lovely light mouthed mare, and I am always worrying that I am having too much contact with her, so I end up riding on a too long rein.
 
ester said:
I wonder if you answered it a bit yourself in that you don't need to focus on your hands you need to think what your elbows are doing :). If they are straight and fixed in an effort to keep the hands still you are on a hiding to nothing.
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Maybe! Thanks for answering.

I seem to be able to lock my arms even when theyre bent! Im fairly sure its because im only a skinny one and I feel like to have my hands still I need them strong and that results in them being rigid.
Ill think about my elbows!!
 
Sprat said:
Thank god it's not just me!! I had the webbed reins and I managed ok with them, but ended up accidentally breaking them, and now I feel that I constantly let the reins slip with normal rubber reins.

I'm almost tempted to mark in tip ex on the reins where I should be holding to keep a consistent contact :lol:

It is my biggest challenge at the moment. I have gone from having a horse who was SO heavy in the contact, to a lovely light mouthed mare, and I am always worrying that I am having too much contact with her, so I end up riding on a too long rein.
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Youre definitely not alone!! The marks on the reins cant be a bad idea! Im similar in that my old gelding was heavier too and im struggling to find a happy medium with this horse. We'll get there ;)
 
9tails said:
I've had a lesson with someone who was trained by a well known dressage rider (probably the same one) and her method when showing me what she meant by playing with the reins can only be described as a jerk. I didn't like it at all, though when my horse is being argumentative I will give her a reminder, which is probably half the weight of the instructor's jerk, to not pull on me.
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I wonder if it is!!

Yeah, Id spent a few months really trying to keep everything still and soft to be told that i needed to move the bit in her mouth to the point where she could see i was doing it a few metres away so I did struggle that lesson I must admit! Its a shame as I like other parts of her training and like I said she gets results so Im not sure I want to stop training with her altogether
 
janinek1981 said:
Youre definitely not alone!! The marks on the reins cant be a bad idea! Im similar in that my old gelding was heavier too and im struggling to find a happy medium with this horse. We'll get there ;)
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Yep, same with me, looking for a happy medium. I seemed to get it really well last week in my lesson, but when I'm left to my own devices it all goes to pot!
 
janinek1981 said:
Thank you this is really helpful.

I understand the tweak as I have kind of fell in between the two teaching methods and keep as still as possible but just very lightly squeeze one rein every now and then. The only difference to what you have said is that I tend to squeeze with both legs but a little more the inside and "catch" with the outside rein by clenching my outside hand. Ill try what you have said above and see what happens.
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TBH, it's a balancing game. Some horses need a bit more - some a bit less. Being 'fixed' is a recipe to disaster though. Have a gentle 'play' - and see what works best for her! It won't always be the same EVERY day. It will depend on all sorts of things, particularly with a mare whose ideas can be very influenced by hormones!
 
TheMule said:
Soft, still hands- the event rider sounds spot on, it's worth the long haul to learn to do it like that
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That's what I aim for, too.

Sprat said:
I'm almost tempted to mark in tip ex on the reins where I should be holding to keep a consistent contact :lol:.
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As an inveterate slipper of reins, I find plastic electric tape invaluable :D.

 
I much prefer the sound of the event riders method. The energy should start with the rider's leg, travel into the hindquarters, over the back to the horse's mouth and into a soft, relaxed hand with an elastic contact. The horse needs to soften, swing and round over it's back to relax into the contact. If the horse is pulled in by the hand, or the hands are constantly fiddling then I find it creates tension in the neck and back and a "false" outline and also blocks the shoulder. The hindquarters aren't able to come underneath the horse and the picture lacks harmony. I often find that if the horse feels heavy or tense in the hand it's because not enough energy is created by the leg, so the energy is not travelling through the hindquarters and over the back therefore lifting the shoulder. It's sooo hard to get out of the mindset of "arguing" back, but the results are well worth it! I always find this illustration helpful if I'm struggling!

circle%20of%20aids%202_0zkf_zpsaie2dn1h.jpg
 
Sack the dressage coach - your hands should never be fiddling the bit in the horses mouth.

However you need to keep a soft elastic contact - and that means wherever the head goes your hands move with it - but still maintaining the elastic contact.

Rein aids are for direction and transitions - not to keep moving the bit around, especially for a horse that tries to duck behind the contact.

I'd stay with your eventing coach - s/he sounds like an ideal coach for you.
 
JanetGeorge said:
TBH, it's a balancing game. Some horses need a bit more - some a bit less. Being 'fixed' is a recipe to disaster though. Have a gentle 'play' - and see what works best for her! It won't always be the same EVERY day. It will depend on all sorts of things, particularly with a mare whose ideas can be very influenced by hormones!
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Its like you know my horse Janet George!! haha hormones galore!!
 
Street_Skill said:
I much prefer the sound of the event riders method. The energy should start with the rider's leg, travel into the hindquarters, over the back to the horse's mouth and into a soft, relaxed hand with an elastic contact. The horse needs to soften, swing and round over it's back to relax into the contact. If the horse is pulled in by the hand, or the hands are constantly fiddling then I find it creates tension in the neck and back and a "false" outline and also blocks the shoulder. The hindquarters aren't able to come underneath the horse and the picture lacks harmony. I often find that if the horse feels heavy or tense in the hand it's because not enough energy is created by the leg, so the energy is not travelling through the hindquarters and over the back therefore lifting the shoulder. It's sooo hard to get out of the mindset of "arguing" back, but the results are well worth it! I always find this illustration helpful if I'm struggling!

circle%20of%20aids%202_0zkf_zpsaie2dn1h.jpg
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This makes a lot of sense! Love the diagram thank you. I think consistency will get us there. Maybe I was being a tad impatient. Have a good lesson yesterday and so my confidence is renewed :)
 
Tnavas said:
Sack the dressage coach - your hands should never be fiddling the bit in the horses mouth.

However you need to keep a soft elastic contact - and that means wherever the head goes your hands move with it - but still maintaining the elastic contact.

Rein aids are for direction and transitions - not to keep moving the bit around, especially for a horse that tries to duck behind the contact.

I'd stay with your eventing coach - s/he sounds like an ideal coach for you.
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She is great, and fab for my confidence too which I need. Thank you :)
 
Well im pleased to report, after concentrating like mad on getting this right I had a lesson last night with the eventer. We started on flat work, straight lines (diamond) and concentrated on rhythm and straightness as always. Then moved to pole work and a few jumps.
My horse WAS a bit more cooperative (well when I say cooperative.. she was a bit lazy and so was pulling some lovely faces at me but it made a refreshing change from hurtling around all tense with her head in the air) but also I thought about all the tips you guys gave me about elastic hands, moving the hands with the mouth to ultimately be "still" and having flexible elbows. I didn't mention anything to her about analysing the crap out of everything or what Id posted on here and to my delight she commented on how much more still and soft my hands were. Yay!!
Thanks guys!!

Im fairly sure she makes it easier for me to be soft when she is cooperative but when each time she tensed up and hollowed against me we made the decision to circle her and regain the outline before going large. I must admit I fell into inside leg to outside hand (small squeeze with outside hand) trick again but did work great and no wiggling involved so Ill stick to it for a minute.

Ive got a lesson this weekend with the dressage coach. Eek. Hopefully my mare will be cooperative again and I wont get to the point where im told to wiggle. I might just risk disobeying her ;)

We managed a course of jumps (albeit small ones) dare I say it, with a bit of style(!) and had a nice outline in between :)
 
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