Stopping in the ring but fine at home and in warmup?

[holly.91]

Bit of a long one ..

Bought an experienced grade A schoolmaster earlier this year, imported from Europe, he’s 16 and I am not naive to think that there wasn’t a reason he was sold when he was at the top of his game but got him for a very good price and when tried and vetted all came up fine for the lower level stuff I want to do (up to 1.10 / 1.20 he was jumping 1.45)

He is a lovely horse, totally sane and sensible albeit a bit of a cheeky character. He hacks, hunts and schools beautiful if a bit lazy.

So my issue is, I took him to our first show yesterday, we did a ‘clear round’ very chilled type show (he is used to internationals so this should be nothing to him) he will jump at home off any stride, literally walk himself on to the lorry, totally cool and calm in the show environment and warm up

The issue: he napped when going in to the ring, when I got him in he was tanking a bit, got over the first then he started stopping, but not dirty stopping, I mean like 10 strides out drifting away from the jump. It’s really odd. They let me take him round as it was a local show but he kept doing the same thing unless I rode him really forward and horribly (smacking, loads of leg) which I am not prepared to do if the horse doesent want to go round the course. perhaps this is why he was sold in the first place? Is he sour? Why just specifically in the ring? Anyone had anything similar?

He seems to me like he likes jumping so I am baffled and quite devastated.

To add: I bought him from a well known pro who had sold him to a girl previously and she had same issue with him round a 90cm course I found out later down the line! Just kept getting eliminated.

 

[Red-1]

What was his record like? Did he suddenly get lots of stops with the last pro rider? I would presume that would be checkable whichever country he came from.

 

[mustardsmum]

I think you saying he’s a bit lazy and behaviour in the ring would make me wonder about the start of hocks/joints issues, especially given his age. One thing I have learned over the years is horses generally display these sort of behaviours when there is pain. Current pony was foot perfect when I bought him. Nine months later, out of the blue he started napping. Turns out the saddle no longer fitted due to weight loss and change in shape. Saddle corrected, behaviour improved back to happy boy. Our mare started stopping in the middle of lessons, just refused to move. She’s jumped her whole life, and been very successful. Vet called to check her and she need her hocks medicating. She was fine for two years, then the stopping reappeared. We retired her from jumping at 18 and she is now a very happy hack. I would add if he’s napping going into the ring, tanking and but then stops miles out from jumps can be signs of stress and pain. Our mare used to lock onto jumps and be very fast, think pocket rocket type. Only I wonder if she just wanted to get it over and done with, so we mistook keenness for stress because if pain. You are right not to hit him - he is maybe trying to tell you something.

 

[holly.91]

What was his record like? Did he suddenly get lots of stops with the last pro rider? I would presume that would be checkable whichever country he came from.

His FEI record is decent. When he came to the UK he went to a pro and his BS record around 1.20 is good with a few stops but that happens. He then went to a younger girl where he was eliminated most rounds around 80/90cm. Went back to the pro and was going clear around 1.20’s again but I suspect this was because he is a big strong rider and therefore horse feels like he is made to do it. I am petite 5,3 and horse is 16.3 warmblood for reference. I am less of an aggressive rider.

 

[holly.91]

I think you saying he’s a bit lazy and behaviour in the ring would make me wonder about the start of hocks/joints issues, especially given his age. One thing I have learned over the years is horses generally display these sort of behaviours when there is pain. Current pony was foot perfect when I bought him. Nine months later, out of the blue he started napping. Turns out the saddle no longer fitted due to weight loss and change in shape. Saddle corrected, behaviour improved back to happy boy. Our mare started stopping in the middle of lessons, just refused to move. She’s jumped her whole life, and been very successful. Vet called to check her and she need her hocks medicating. She was fine for two years, then the stopping reappeared. We retired her from jumping at 18 and she is now a very happy hack. I would add if he’s napping going into the ring, tanking and but then stops miles out from jumps can be signs of stress and pain. Our mare used to lock onto jumps and be very fast, think pocket rocket type. Only I wonder if she just wanted to get it over and done with, so we mistook keenness for stress because if pain. You are right not to hit him - he is maybe trying to tell you something.

Yes this is first thing I had thought of, I have had his hocks injected, had him scoped and a set of full leg & back X-rays no issues with him. I know hock pain doesent always show on X-rays though so can’t rule it out. When you look at his body language when jumping he does not look to be in pain. He is also very elevated and uses his body extremely well, he is incredibly flexible and fluid. It’s very confusing.

 

[clairebearfur1]

My friends horse done the same. As calm as he looked he was over whelmed. We gave him ponease ulcer fix and he got it before each class, seemed to stop his butterflys and he started winning everything again

 

[Red-1]

His FEI record is decent. When he came to the UK he went to a pro and his BS record around 1.20 is good with a few stops but that happens. He then went to a younger girl where he was eliminated most rounds around 80/90cm. Went back to the pro and was going clear around 1.20’s again but I suspect this was because he is a big strong rider and therefore horse feels like he is made to do it. I am petite 5,3 and horse is 16.3 warmblood for reference. I am less of an aggressive rider.

I worked for a pro SJ who had an amazing, consistent horse. Finances made it be for sale, was sold to a less experienced rider but you'd have thought that would be OK as he was consistent and the easiest hack you ever did ride, including bombing around in company. He was easy going and mannerly.

He was sold for the price of a small house. Would not jump for the new rider. Was tried by other riders and he simply said no. Was sold back to the pro (for the price of a small car) and went straight back to work, jumping fantastically. After a long time performing back at the top (up to grand prix) he was again sold for a lot of money. Blow me down, he said no again. He was again bought back and the rider kept him. They said he'd made enough money for them by being sold top dollar twice and coming back much cheaper. He was much loved and again jumped back at his previous level. There was nothing wrong with him. He liked the rider who'd trained him, trusted them and was prepared to work for them.

If yours was jumping up to 1.45 with 'his' rider yet straight away refused to go round a 90 with a less experienced rider, I think horse preference is as likely as lameness, especially as he then went up to 1.20 in a reasonable fashion with an unfamiliar but better rider. Some horses won't take a miss and quickly lose confidence (this was the case with the horse I knew - although I hacked him and schooled sometimes, I never ever jumped as he needed better). The careful ones are the worst as they hate to touch a pole and may do silly athletics when 'off' the correct stride and scare themselves even if they don't hit a fence.

I am rubbish at seeing strides and therefore deliberately buy a horse who isn't averse to a knock down.

That said, I would of course now pay for a full vet workup for yours. It is as likely that he has some pain, but I would bear in mind that, for a horse used to being ridden by a pro at that level, it may simply be horse preference.

 

[holly.91]

I worked for a pro SJ who had an amazing, consistent horse. Finances made it be for sale, was sold to a less experienced rider but you'd have thought that would be OK as he was consistent and the easiest hack you ever did ride, including bombing around in company. He was easy going and mannerly.

He was sold for the price of a small house. Would not jump for the new rider. Was tried by other riders and he simply said no. Was sold back to the pro (for the price of a small car) and went straight back to work, jumping fantastically. After a long time performing back at the top (up to grand prix) he was again sold for a lot of money. Blow me down, he said no again. He was again bought back and the rider kept him. They said he'd made enough money for them by being sold top dollar twice and coming back much cheaper. He was much loved and again jumped back at his previous level. There was nothing wrong with him. He liked the rider who'd trained him, trusted them and was prepared to work for them.

If yours was jumping up to 1.45 with 'his' rider yet straight away refused to go round a 90, I think horse preference is as likely as lameness, especially as he then went up to 1.20 in a reasonable fashion. Some horses won't take a miss and quickly lose confidence (this was the case with the horse I knew. Although I hacked him and schooled sometimes, I never ever jumped as he needed better). The careful ones are the worst as they hate to touch a pole and may do silly athletics when 'off' the correct stride and scare themselves even if they don't hit a fence.

I am rubbish at seeing strides and therefore deliberately buy a horse who isn't averse to a knock down.

That said, I would of course now pay for a full vet workup. It is as likely that he has some pain, but I would bear in mind that, for a horse used to being ridden by a pro at that level, it may simply be horse preference.

Completely agree. This is very probable. Thanks for your reply.

 

[spacefaer]

I bought an eventer who had been produced by a male rider. He'd jumped dc round 2 intermediates just before I bought him, so obviously more than capable.
I took him home, went to pop him over a cross pole a couple of days after I got him. He pulled up before the corner and wouldn't go near the fence.
The only way I could get him to jump (fast and flat) was by over riding him massively.
The male pro rider came out, told me I was incompetent and a useless rider and the horse jumped for him. (Despite me having ridden at 2* at that point)
I guess male riders don't realise how strong they are, despite thinking they're riding lightly.
Turns out my horse had damage in his neck C6/C7 and was in a lot of pain and discomfort but he'd been performing very successfully when he had no choice

Hope you manage to sort your boy out!

 

[holly.91]

I bought an eventer who had been produced by a male rider. He'd jumped dc round 2 intermediates just before I bought him, so obviously more than capable.
I took him home, went to pop him over a cross pole a couple of days after I got him. He pulled up before the corner and wouldn't go near the fence.
The only way I could get him to jump (fast and flat) was by over riding him massively.
The male pro rider came out, told me I was incompetent and a useless rider and the horse jumped for him. (Despite me having ridden at 2* at that point)
I guess male riders don't realise how strong they are, despite thinking they're riding lightly.
Turns out my horse had damage in his neck C6/C7 and was in a lot of pain and discomfort but he'd been performing very successfully when he had no choice

Hope you manage to sort your boy out!

Thanks for your reply. I agree. I have had him checked by a vet twice so I am now thinking this might be a confidence thing which I understand is common in these types of horses.

 

[mustardsmum]

Yes this is first thing I had thought of, I have had his hocks injected, had him scoped and a set of full leg & back X-rays no issues with him. I know hock pain doesent always show on X-rays though so can’t rule it out. When you look at his body language when jumping he does not look to be in pain. He is also very elevated and uses his body extremely well, he is incredibly flexible and fluid. It’s very confusing.

I can completely understand how you feel! Our mare looked amazing jumping, she flew and when we first bought her she was super. She had a good BS record, she'd done PC championships (not with us, we bought her as a schoolmistress to teach my daughter to jump). Everyone used to comment on how athletic she was, ears were always pricked and she was fast and knew her job. We'd had a good few years jumping so the pony was not new to us. Your does sounds like this history of stopping which could be related to rider strength/confidence. But then who wants to be pushing their horses to jump? You want them to go happily and enjoy it, not to be driven over the jumps like a machine. I still think there is the possibility of pain issue here as you say you have had hocks done already it would seem likely there could be other joints that are causing problems. I would still chat to the vet. It could be you need a whole system approach like Arthramid that targets all joints, rather than just the treating the hocks. Why not have vet check and then just hack him for a bit, build up your confidence in each other and come back to the competitive jumping after a few months, see if that helps. Good luck, sounds like he has landed on his hooves with you and he will have a lovely home and be loved.

 

[irishdraft]

How disappointing for you, it's sounds like it's either the strong male pro riding the horse thru any physical or mental issue he may have or the horse simply goes well for a strong male pro. So the difficulty is working out which one it is, it sounds like you've done quite a few vet checks, it's not you as horse has history doing this with another rider and also jumps well at home & warmup, could you ask a female pro to try him at a show & see how she gets on.

 

[paddi22]

i have a similar one that arrived last year. we literally had to go back to doing a load of relaxed long and low trot work, over random scattered poles, then trotting tiny crosspoles. the horse has come on leaps and bounds, but we really did a lot of work going back to basics. the root issue was the horse was a pro horse who had been overfaced, but pushed by very strong male riders. so the only way it knew to jump was flat out in a panic. it had gone to a young girl then and had bad falls with her and just downed tools. a big issue was trust in the rider as well. what I think happened was that the horse finally had space to express it's displeasure in its career and how it felt about jumping/pressure/shows etc. i took it out of the ring and did tons of endurance rides/fun hacking and just let it wind down and relax in its brain.

and physio was a huge part, even though the horse had been signed off by their physio after the girl had a bad fall fall. when it was given to us, our physio said the horse was muscled upside down, hollow and had no core strength and a lot of pain in neck, back and poll from being ridden incorrectly. it was a long process of giving the horse time off, and then tons of physio and correct rehab to rebuild the body again so it was strong and muscled correctly. no one in the showjumping yards the horse had been in had spotted the physical issues as they are so used to horses looking that way. the horse is unrecognisable now and much happier in its work.

but what worked for us was taking the focus off shows and jumping, and getting the horse mentally and physically happy. now she's gone from having a tantrum at the site of wings, to hapilliy and calmly popping over jumps again and finally enjoying it.

 

[Abacus]

The thing that isn't addressed here is that he is jumping well at home and not in the ring, which points more to fear or a bad experience than to pain, as presumably all tack etc is the same in both environments. Have you tried an arena hire where you are away from home and in what looks like a showjump ring but without the competition element? Is it possible that you are nervous out and this is transmitting to him?

 

[maya2008]

Was he sold because he was becoming ring sour? Had he been overfaced by a noisy, busy environment or stressed by the pressure in the ring at 1m45? You need to find more history and the reason WHY he was less money. Then I would find a local pro who knows how to fix whatever it is, and enlist their help.

 

[Annagain]

This sounds like Archie (at a much much lower level!) was for me. He'd be (mostly) fine at home, in lessons or in the warm up but would nap so badly in the ring that his focus would be everywhere but on the jump. By the time I'd get him near a jump and he actually looked at it, he either had to stop as he was too close or cat leap it. We thought it was confidence, he had mostly hunted before me and wasn't used to being ridden alone, although he'd hack alone quite happily, we put that down to doing a lot of hacking for fitness. A lot of perseverance saw us improve (but only indoors) but then, a day or two after our best round ever - clear (only at 85!) with no napping, he went lame. Long story short, he had irreparable foot issues, he must have been in pain for a while but still tried for me bless him. We never jumped more than popping the odd small log out hacking again (which he never said no to). We think in a lesson or a warm up where there were far fewer jumps he could cope, but when there were loads of fences he knew he'd have to do them all and it would be too much for him.

 

[holly.91]

The thing that isn't addressed here is that he is jumping well at home and not in the ring, which points more to fear or a bad experience than to pain, as presumably all tack etc is the same in both environments. Have you tried an arena hire where you are away from home and in what looks like a showjump ring but without the competition element? Is it possible that you are nervous out and this is transmitting to him?

We have a good arena at home so haven’t done arena hires with him, im
Booking an arena hire for next week to see how he is and hopefully this will give me some more insight.

 

[holly.91]

Was he sold because he was becoming ring sour? Had he been overfaced by a noisy, busy environment or stressed by the pressure in the ring at 1m45? You need to find more history and the reason WHY he was less money. Then I would find a local pro who knows how to fix whatever it is, and enlist their help.

He was obviously sold for some reason as he was performing well then was imported, I am thinking that the pro he was with in the UK worked through whatever issues he had and they are starting to show again with an amateur rider (me)

 

[holly.91]

This sounds like Archie (at a much much lower level!) was for me. He'd be (mostly) fine at home, in lessons or in the warm up but would nap so badly in the ring that his focus would be everywhere but on the jump. By the time I'd get him near a jump and he actually looked at it, he either had to stop as he was too close or cat leap it. We thought it was confidence, he had mostly hunted before me and wasn't used to being ridden alone, although he'd hack alone quite happily, we put that down to doing a lot of hacking for fitness. A lot of perseverance saw us improve (but only indoors) but then, a day or two after our best round ever - clear (only at 85!) with no napping, he went lame. Long story short, he had irreparable foot issues, he must have been in pain for a while but still tried for me bless him. We never jumped more than popping the odd small log out hacking again (which he never said no to). We think in a lesson or a warm up where there were far fewer jumps he could cope, but when there were loads of fences he knew he'd have to do them all and it would be too much for him.

To be fair I would never set up 12-13 jumps at home, probably 4 mostly so the ‘course’ element could be something!

 

[paddi22]

is there a chance also you could be getting nervous in ring? and either your breathing is changing, or you are subconsciously gripping and telling him to stop and go at the same time.

as a test study i'd get a female pro to try him, and also go to the smallest cross pole show you can find (where they are literally just poles on the ground) and just trot over them. and see where the issues come up. it's either the ring environment, or something you are doing.

 

[Annagain]

To be fair I would never set up 12-13 jumps at home, probably 4 mostly so the ‘course’ element could be something!

Possibly - when I said "mostly" above, that applied to lessons, where we would occasionally have a full course. He was always fine at home where 3 or 4 fences was all we'd have room for. I couldn't tell you if the times he stopped in lessons were when there were a lot of fences up, I never thought about it that much at the time. The other factor was he only ever napped on the right rein and when he stopped, he always spun left.

 

[holly.91]

is there a chance also you could be getting nervous in ring? and either your breathing is changing, or you are subconsciously gripping and telling him to stop and go at the same time.

as a test study i'd get a female pro to try him, and also go to the smallest cross pole show you can find (where they are literally just poles on the ground) and just trot over them. and see where the issues come up. it's either the ring environment, or something you are doing.

Possibly. Looking back at the videos I thought I rode quite well and didn’t really feel nervous at that height as we do 1.10 at home quite easily. I could be a lot more hard with him but I choose not to be, perhaps this is the issue.

We don’t have great choice of instructors in my area, therefore admittedly I have not had many lessons on him for someone to assess this properly, I am going to box up and go out to a good instructors yard for a lesson as a next step.

 

[conniegirl]

Id say he was sold because he is ring sour.

I had the most amazing pony who was very very ring sour.
He was amazing at home but absolutely ground to a halt in the show ring. Had been overshown and gone stale. Never had a day lame in his life and was sound right up to his death at 28 years old.

 

[sbloom]

I don't think you can eliminate pain - horses are so easily able to mask in "safer" situations and less able when less "safe". Now less safe is often the arena, simply because they are moving on a surface, corners, accurate transitions etc plus they don't have the adrenaline/happy hormones that they'd have out hacking. This would be more unusual but there is still a chance it's pain. How functional does his body look? The clues to soundness/compensatory movement patterns are always there in the muscles but we have got so used to seeing them.

Also think beyond aiding - how well does the saddle support you? Do you feel you facilitate him to move correctly? It's not about "riding", much of which is just "aiding", it's about how easy you are to carry. I think this is less likely (though if you bought the saddle with him and it doesn't suit you this may make it more likely) but how the rider sits and facilitates the horse makes a massive difference in many cases.

Ring sourness most likely, but you can't eliminate other possible causes yet.

 

[Birker2020]

Bit of a long one ..

Bought an experienced grade A schoolmaster earlier this year, imported from Europe, he’s 16 and I am not naive to think that there wasn’t a reason he was sold when he was at the top of his game but got him for a very good price and when tried and vetted all came up fine for the lower level stuff I want to do (up to 1.10 / 1.20 he was jumping 1.45)

I wouldn't take the fact that your horse was sold cheaply even if had been top of his game at one point.

I bought a Grade B years ago for a very cheap price. He was 12 or something but he never stopped or ran out all the time I had him. The type worth its weight in gold. I was told by the dealer (who I totally trusted and went on to buy another one or two off) that the reason he was being sold cheaply was because he was top of his game but could no longer jump consistently at the height he'd been jumping over in the continent. Therefore he wasn't of much value at all, although he was great for my purposes.

So Biggles went from jumping 1.40 speed derby's abroad to jumping 2ft 6 tracks with me, and destroying everything as he had no respect at that height and I hadn't much of a clue as to what I was doing either!

This photo was of us jumping at home. Such a confidence giver horse.

 

[Time for Tea]

I had a lovely horse, he was an ex show jumper. He would jump in training but you had to do it more or less properly , or the way he wanted it done. He wouldn’t jump in competition though, and I think he had been pressurised too much, being drilled in training and spurred. He seemed to be unable to jump unless the right buttons were pressed in the right way, he had no confidence of his own. He could more or less cope training, because there was no pressure.
Our pony club pony was the exact opposite. “You sit there mum, I’ll take care of that”. I remember loose jumping them both once, and pc pony happily popping over 1.20m. Poor old ex sj couldn’t loose jump 80cm, he probably hadn’t done it before and was horrified I think,
poor chap. I never did that again with him.
Our mutual understanding took a long time to develop, and by the time it had, I felt he was too old to jump. If we had more time, I think it would have come.

 

[J&S]

I had the most amazing pony who was very very ring sour.

Me too. Bought from Ralph Coakes who told me I would not be able to affiliate her for SJ. Of course I was curious, found she had been re registered JA twice and both times sold as she really could not cope. If we took her out on the forest she would pop a log or a gorse bush but in the arena she was petrified, beautifully schooled so we turned to dressage. Maybe your horse would prefer another discipline?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

My friends horse went a bit like this with jumping away from home she was going to sell him but realised he had a bit of a talent for dressage, she is going to the area festivals with him next week his doing so well and she is really enjoying it although she has only ever really jumped competitively.

She has took him to a few jump comps recently and he jumped really well winning his class, but she thinks giving it a break and concentrating on something else has done him good and I think she is just hoping he can do a bit of both well eventually.