Strange behaviour - sleep related?

[starfish8]

My horse, a 10yo ID gelding, is displaying some strange behaviour/symptoms and I wondered if anyone else has experienced the same/similar? Horse is currently under the vet but as it's playing on my mind I thought I would ask on here too in case it throws up some more avenues to explore. Apologies for the long post.

Behaviours/symptoms:
- Refusal to walk out of stable, and generally planty when being led once he has been shooed out of his stable (for turnout). No other obvious signs of agitation - no snorting, spooking etc.
- Does not like picking up front feet particularly, will stamp them back down again (better with hinds)
- Stands oddly - kind of bunched up
- Odd way of moving when turned on a circle
- Ridden - very reluctant to go forward

I have had him since last summer but unfortunately haven't been able to do much with him due to injury (mine), lack of facilities, atrocious weather. Recently moved yards, although this behaviour was observed at first yard - just put down to him being a stubborn so and so. Not having been able to do much with him, I went with previous yard's advice it was just behaviour. New yard owner (a friend who's opinion I trust) is convinced that there is an underlying cause, hence vet involvement.

Vet has taken a blood test for muscle enzyme levels, which was negative. Bute trial to start tomorrow. Vet also thinks there is something 'not right'.

Other observations - seems to stand in one spot in his stable, no evidence of lying down. Doesn't move around much in the field. Currently fed on hi-fi and fibre pencils. Supplements - biotin, magnesium oxide (as often seemed very 'on edge' on previous yard, not so much now), and brewer's yeast.

The lack of lying down makes me wonder if he is sleep deprived, but it could also just be that no one has caught him having a snooze. Considering getting a stable-cam so I can monitor what he gets up to - not that I think the yard girls aren't, but they aren't there 24/7.

Any thoughts, experiences, further questions etc welcome!

 

[SEL]

I was thinking tied up but your vet has tested...

Have you done a bute trial? Sometimes they won't lie down if they are worried they can't get up. Is stable nice and big?

 

[starfish8]

Bute trial starts tomorrow, was waiting for vet to send out. Vet also thought something of the tying up family - but not according to blood test.

Stable is nice and big, certainly no smaller than the one at our last yard or where I bought him from.

Thanks for your reply

 

[Shay]

Tied up is too transient for what appears to be a long term condition - and pretty unmistakable so the vet would have spotted it. A bute trial will work for pain - and very useful. And cheaper of course so rule that out first. Sleep deprivation might be the first line cause - but why can't he sleep / rest correctly? To be honest I would be looking at a neurological problem. But that is expensive so bute trial first is prudent.

 

[starfish8]

Agreed - not a tying up episode, but something affecting muscles in a similar way, PSSM etc, over a prolonged period. But now ruled out wit blood test anyway.

Also agree that the sleep deprivation would be a large symptom that explains the little symptoms rather than a diagnosis in itself. Not sure if I want the bute trial to work or not - hate the thought he'd have been in pain for ages, but I do want an answer so we can resolve asap for him.

 

[WandaMare]

My pony had v similar symptoms and it turned out to be an abscess in his abdomen. Went through all sorts of different diagnoses with the vets from a hairline fracture of the pelvis or one of the vertebra, tying up, neurological issues but pelvic fracture was the main consensus. We eventually shaved his backend and did an ultrasound and vet spotted the fluid in the abscess. This was very unusual so unlikely to be the same issue as your horse but it shows that these symptoms cover quite a few different possibilities. Mine was put on a long term course of antibiotics which relieved the pressure eventually and he was able to move freely. It must have been building up for a long time before it started causing mobility issues, and he showed no previous signs of pain or discomfort.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Horses need 45 minutes of REM sleep within a 24 hour period and they can only achieve REM sleep lying down. They can't achieve it standing up. They can have their REM sleep split up, it doesn't have to be all in one go. Horses are persuaded to lie down if their surroundings are comfortable or if they are in a herd of other horses who are asleep on their sides or if they reside in a stable block with others that frequently lie down. If a horse is uncomfortable in its surroundings it may be sleep deprived. After a few days it will partially collapse and then get suddenly aroused. horses will avoid lying down due to discomfort i.e. arthritis for example. They will also avoid lying down if they are very dominant and then removed from a herd situation. Finally if they are uncomfortable in their surroundings they will avoid lying down. This can be remedied by moving them to a more populated area of the field, removing a horse from loud noises, i.e. motorway or train tracks, or removing a dominant horse from the field.

Video showing REM sleep https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYA-g8yfd-4

 

[starfish8]

Thanks WandaMare - that's interesting, glad you found the cause in the end. Did a bute trial make any difference (if you did one)?

hopscotch bandit - thanks for the additional information. considering a stable camera so i can see what he gets up to overnight - specifically if there is any lying down sleep. if he's not getting any REM sleep then we can look at why, if he is then we can rule out sleep deprivation.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Thanks WandaMare - that's interesting, glad you found the cause in the end. Did a bute trial make any difference (if you did one)?

hopscotch bandit - thanks for the additional information. considering a stable camera so i can see what he gets up to overnight - specifically if there is any lying down sleep. if he's not getting any REM sleep then we can look at why, if he is then we can rule out sleep deprivation.

No problem. Can you not see if he is lying down by the state of his rugs, i.e shavings/straw on them or on his tail or presumably you have already ruled this out. May be putting a fleece rug on might highlight it easier if the kind of stable rug you use is of the material that doesn't attract annoying bits of shavings/straw lol.

 

[starfish8]

He had a brand new stable rug on last night so any debris will definitely be from lying down from this point on - was hard to tell in his turnout as he does love the mud.

According to our block's groom (who has the patience of a saint for all my questions) he is getting worse for not wanting to come out of his box in the mornings, behaviour doesn't seem affected by whether he's first/last out/being turned out with my other one at the same time, is weeing a lot (regardless of thickness of bed, it's running out of the door overnight).

Went over him myself last night to hunt for any sore spots and found a couple - one a few inches up and back from his elbow, another strange but old (I think) line of scar tissue on his quarters. Will report all of this to the vet next time we speak, plus any changes arising as a result of the bute trial.

 

[starfish8]

In case anyone who was kind enough to reply was wondering... I thought I'd provide a quick update. We went to the vets today, findings were that the boy is lame on 3 legs (both hinds, one fore) and vet also suspects an issue with his back. No definitive diagnosis yet, and vet thinks bone scan prior to any kind of treatment is best given that we don't know what else there is. So I am none the wiser, but more worried - seems a lot more complicated and baffling than either vet or I anticipated. At least I know that I'm not losing my marbles - there is something wrong, not just pig headedness on his part that I should have been pushing him through.

 

[asmp]

Before I read your latest reply, I was going to suggest possibly Lyme Disease?

 

[ester]

aww bless him it was interesting to read the update even though I missed the original post. I'd think going straight for a bone scan is sensible.

 

[starfish8]

Before I read your latest reply, I was going to suggest possibly Lyme Disease?

Belated thanks for this asmp - he actually came to me from the New Forest and after some online research I think I'm going to ask my vet if he thinks it would be worth testing for

 

[Shay]

The other thing that might be a possibility - although I accept it is not classic - is cushings. The only thing that makes me thing that is the amount of wee. You are going to be going for a diagnosis of exclusion anyway so might be worth throwing into the mix on a flood blood work up.

Keep us updated - hugs to you both.

 

[starfish8]

thanks, hugs much appreciated - racking my brains for anything that ties it all together without being a complete disaster. and the waiting/not knowing is killing me.

vet said this morning he agrees the symptoms fit but doesn't think it is lyme. I don't know whether to push for a blood test before he goes in for the bone scan to rule it out, or to trust the vet's judgement and many years of experience and ignore my straw clutching.

 

[be positive]

thanks, hugs much appreciated - racking my brains for anything that ties it all together without being a complete disaster. and the waiting/not knowing is killing me.

vet said this morning he agrees the symptoms fit but doesn't think it is lyme. I don't know whether to push for a blood test before he goes in for the bone scan to rule it out, or to trust the vet's judgement and many years of experience and ignore my straw clutching.

My friends mare had Lymes and the vet said it was extremely unlikely, bloods proved it but he was convinced they would be negative, if the symptoms fit it makes sense to test.

 

[starfish8]

My friends mare had Lymes and the vet said it was extremely unlikely, bloods proved it but he was convinced they would be negative, if the symptoms fit it makes sense to test.

That was my first thought... but then I'm second guessing everything I think at the moment. Lethargic, planty, stiff, lame on multiple limbs, randomly gets narky when grooming different bits of him... not off his food and the yard haven't mentioned fever but I don't know if that's a symptom that persists.

Do you happen to know how long your friend's blood tests took? I assume it's not a standard test for most vets so might have to be sent away? Wondering if it could be squeezed in before the weekend

 

[be positive]

Not sure but think it was within days as that was all they tested for, she had several odd symptoms that were not really obvious unless you knew her, retired at the time so living out 24/7 but was not herself.

 

[starfish8]

So the saga continues. Nerve blocks to the front limb produced no results whatsoever. Blocking the right hock seemed to trigger right fore lameness. Vet suggested chiro/physio/tildren/turn away - in that order.

Chiro came, found a few sore spots - manipulated & within a couple of days looked sound to lunge. Vet and chiro agreed from videos, said lunge a bit longer then get on. Brilliant, I thought - he looks great, he's not planting, he seems to be moving really well. Chiro has worked her magic.

So, this weekend was time to get on... backside touched saddle, horse reared vertically (twice) then bucked me off. Safe to say that horse is still not right, now back to hunting for a diagnosis. My gut says its his back, but who knows at this point.

 

[ester]

did he have the bone scan?

 

[starfish8]

Yep - bone scan showed up a couple of hot spots - suspensory area, left shoulder and top of tibia. Vet suspects shoulder area is a bone cyst. Suspensories blocked twice with no effect. Left fore blocked top to bottom with no effect. Vet advised parking the left fore for the time being & blocked right hock - then lameness on right fore popped up.

No correlation between bone scan anything on the x-rays it seems, which is strange to say the least. Numerous x-rays done - areas that scan showed up of course, plus various others including neck - and we're still none the wiser.

Have asked for copies of notes, scans etc for a second opinion in case a fresh pair of veterinary eyes can spot anything - but otherwise I'm at a loss.

Upset that I unwittingly inflicted so much pain on my gorgeous boy that he had to react like that - with hindsight he was a little reluctant to walk up to the mounting block and I wish I'd interpreted that as him trying to tell me something, rather than pressing on and getting on. I don't think its the saddle, as the reaction was so extreme - but I will get it checked anyway.

 

[ester]

How frustrating, it sounds so much like he is sore (including the not lying down). Don't be upset, you have to try these things to ascertain how they are and I hope you are not too battered.

I'm presuming your insured hence the tildren suggestion pre turning away as otherwise you will run out of time to do so. Do you think he is comfy enough in the field? I think if I were you I would certainly be investigating decent turning away options (ie bunch of horses/varied terrain if possible etc).

 

[starfish8]

He rolls in the field, and started lying down in his stable while on the bute a few months back - that and the weekend's events tell me he is hurting, but we haven't found where yet.

He is insured, although we're not a million miles from our claim limit now so trying to be a little bit sensible in our approach - he'll get the treatment he needs, just don't want to go nuts with more and more diagnostics & so thinking a second opinion is worth a shot.

He seems happy enough in himself - he still eats, he wanders over in the field to say hello, the planting has stopped (other than at things that are scary, but its clear with him what is 'i'm scared' planting and what isn't), he interacts with the other horses in his field etc. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think we've reached the point where I think he has little or no quality of life because of whatever is troubling him.

Turning away options I will need to look into. He's just switched on to night turnout for the summer, so he's getting a lot more hours in than out at the moment but my current yard doesn't do 24/7 turn out so will need to look at moving him I think - another stress in itself!

 

[ester]

The premise for my question was more around whether it would fair to turn him away as is unmedicated or whether he would hurt too much rather than a quality of life thing . Certainly better to get a second opinion now rather than later at least so I think that is sensible.

 

[starfish8]

If he isn't going to be comfortable turned away, whether that's with or without medication, I won't put him through that. He doesn't appear to be uncomfortable or in pain pottering around the field at this time, but I am accepting of the fact he may never be ridden again and so his being happy and comfortable are all that matters.