Strange symptoms, ideas welcome as we're at a bit of a loss! *longish*

leflynn

leflynn

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Hi, Any advice/suggestions welcome on this as our vet seems a little flummoxed to say the least and so are we at the yard. My 9yo TB has been doing some awfully strange/worrying things lately....

Moved to a new yard on Saturday (a total of 23 horses moved as old yard is closed and we all went together), he is usually fab to hack and doesn't normally spook at anything, but ended up chucking a dancing attack in the middle of the road when we were almost at the new yard (hacked there) after spooking at a reflection in a bus shelter (odd). Settled into new stable and was right as rain and normal the next day although he munched a lot of his straw bed and not his hay (usually on shaving, straw was temp measure).

Monday eve, got put out in the small paddock for a bit of grazing with his pal my other horse, the pair of them larked about happy as larry, chomped a bit of grass and came back in after a few hours.

Tuesday, gets turned out with the herd in a big field, just mooches about and rolls in the field a lot, YO checks him incase he's colicing, thinks it might be minor and keeps watching him, he's just mooching and doing the odd roll. 20 mins later he rolls, as he gets up he bucks and then rears. his legs lock and he goes vertical, pivots and falls on the floor. YO gets him out of the field where he's broncing and kicking out and doing mini rears and looks like he's been on something! Doesn't settle in stable where he's kicking out and freaking out that he's kicked out, puts him in field with a lunge line on so he doesn't harm himself while waiting for the vet to arrive... He also seems to be swaying and not able to stand up or lie down properly (as if he's caught between).

Vet arrives and checks him over, slightly sore back, almost falls over onto left side when left side legs are picked up and held, not so bad on right side. Gums and inner eyes have a yellowy tinge and he doesn't respond to being almost hit in the eye or having his ears pulled about. Vet initially thinks liver probs, takes bloods and runs tests that eve.

Nothing has so far shown on the bloods, but he has taken a second batch for more in depth testing and sent them away (expected back tomorrow). Meanwhile the horse seems to improve a bit then deteriorate again, but hasn't had another episode as in the field and is more settled then the first evening, he's still not really 'with it' and is lethargic, his belly also seems swollen, but his back end is really tucked up. He is pooing okay, but not weeing much now. He is also still kicking out. Vet has a long list of possibles but can't pin it down at present. He's on bute for his sore back (from falling over) but only hay and water otherwise.

Any ideas welcome and sorry this is so long :( I am a bit worried about the boy!
 
Poor boy!

I'm not a vet, nor do I have experience of this, but somehow it sounds like a neurological problem. Although the jaundice does point to liver so the blood tests seem sensible.

Hope you get to the bottom of it!
 
Maybe your horse has potentially been poisoned by something? Head injury? Brain tumour? It sounds awful and I hope he makes a full recovery but I fear whatever it is it sounds rather serious. Please keep us posted.
 
Vet did think Liver or brain related in some way intially, ruled out poision due to timescales... I wondered if it was some kind of fit or stroke as the rear and left side problems kinda equate to a human version? A friend also said that in some cases colic can show with a jaundice of the gums but seems very unlikely as he isn't really displaying many colic signs?
Our vet has had the first case in the UK of a flu vaccine causing another horse to do something similar without the rear which manifested as liver probs.... (it's made a full recovery thankfully)

It is so unlike him to rear too, he's such a sweetie and suits his name (Dream) usually, it's got the whole yard worried too :( Will keep you posted and thank you
 
Nope, got wormed on the day they arrived as it was a bit last minute due to the circumstances surrounding the sale of the old yard.

Did ponder if it was worm related too....
 
Update* Bloods are back and nothing showing at all in the slightest :o Apparently he's a bit perkier today, will see him after work again
 
Booboos said:
Poor boy!

I'm not a vet, nor do I have experience of this, but somehow it sounds like a neurological problem. Although the jaundice does point to liver so the blood tests seem sensible.

Hope you get to the bottom of it!
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I agree Booboos, sounds neuro to me too, this is what happened to my horse when he reared and fell over backwards landing on his neck, and he went on to develop ataxia in the space of a few minutes, which sadly escalated to wobblers. The vets misdiagnosed and thought he had EHV which causes ataxia and this route was followed extensively. Although I can never prove it, the anti inflammatories which I think he should have been on to prevent further damage were not given and the damage that resulted caused him to be pts.

I'm not saying this is what the OP's horse has but in my opinion (only being a lay person with experience of this) I would say that the horse is taken asap to a equine hospital where an xray of his neck and spine can be done so the damage can be limited in the event that this is what it is. (portable xray did not deliver a good enough image in my horses case as the portable unit was not strong enough to penetrate the neck muscles).

i would agree that the jaundice may point to liver but this could also be a misnomer.
 
What a horrible thing to happen for you and your horse. The most common cause of neurological problems in horses is actually the liver. The swelling of the belly sounds like fluid retention and I'm sure something in the back of my memory tells me that in humans, liver problems can cause abdominal swelling like that. Just as a thought, you say he was eating his straw bed. Could the straw have been sprayed with something? I only quite recently found out that modern straw is much shorter than it used to be, not because it is bred to be shorter, but because farmers spray it with growth retardant.

Hope things get better soon and you get an answer.
 
Thanks for the ideas above, woudl they still apply even if he is eating as normal and no longer wobbly as such, just lethargic? The vet did test on mon eve such as large circles and being led over a pole (again fine).

His temp & heart rate have always been stable and normal too, sorry for the questions its not something I'm familar with....

I am leaning towards a neuro problem too, part loaner is convinced its colic related for some reason?

Fatpiggy, liver has been ruled out at present as nothing has showed on any blood tests (had three lots done now), that was the vets initial diagnosis before the bloods
 
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It wouldn't do any harm for your vet to do a full neurological workup. The odd circle and stepping over a low obstacle doesn't cut the mustard! Just how yellowish are his membranes? My mare has slightly high bilirubin levels in her blood and her gums aren't exactly the salmon pink the textbooks describe, but she is perfectly healthy.
 
Spoken to vet again, who is off to see him again in the next hour or so, he did mention that his bilarubin is up a little, but may attribute that to the fact he's been eating a straw bed for a few days instead of eating his hay.

Vets current theory is that he has had some sort of epileptic fit or seizure, but isn't entirely sure thats what it is, I'll try and speak to him again about running more neuro tests.
Thanks again!
 
Unless you can link straw eating to everything, I'd be going down the seizure line of thinking, too. It's the oddness, escalating to downright scary change, in his behaviour which I'd find most frightening.

Unless he is the only one who, prior to or shortly after the move, has ingested some sort of poison.

How awful for you - I am doing a scientifically unproven procedure (known as crossing one's fingers) for his complete recovery.
 
One of my horses just before christmas came down with what we believed to be neurological symptoms, i simply did him that night he was fine, the next morning he was on deaths door.
He couldnt co-ordinate his legs, didnt seem to know who i was & was lethargic & very Ataxic.
He collapsed in the stable many times & then wouldnt be able to get back up. We where terrified & i even had THAT conversation with the vet.

We had 3 vets here at one point all discussing what to do, he was failing some of the Neurological tests but then passing others. He was by this point to un-well to travel so it was try something or PTS.

My vet came to the conclusion that the symptoms where pain related, so we hit him hard with Finadyne intravenously the first day & then after that with sachets. By the 3rd day my horse started returning to his normal self, by the 5th day he felt that well that he clobbered me one when i was handwalking him ( im still suffering with the Bone Bruise he gave me ).

All my boy's bloods where normal, we have no idea what happend to cause this sudden change overnight as he did nothing out of the ordinary that night on the camera's. But the day before he had got away from me whilst on in hand walking for his other lameness injury & bucked it was the first time he had managed to canter away & buck for 6 months so it's pretty obvious he tweaked something as it became apparent he had pain over the wither area.

He been fine since but we still are doing Physio sessions monthly as a precaution as he was left with residual muscular soreness after.

I really hope your horse is suffering something sporadic as mine did, it was horrendous to go through but mine pulled through.
 
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Vet thinks the straw eating might be to do with the yellowing of the gums but not convinced about anything else really.... YO and OH have messaged me to say that he looks perkier again and him and my other horse are in a little paddock together mooching and looking chilled out (Red does this all the time lol). He's on Bute for his back pain and got a good injection of that and some multi-vits on mon eve.

I do wonder if he rolled in nettles or something sharp that made him rear and freaked him out on monday afternoon or whether it is something more, I hate not knowing and seeing horses not themselves! The vet did mention on Tue am that he wasn't sure he'd pull through mon eve but didn't want to tell me that!!! (he knows I'm rubbish and that I stayed with him till gone half 10 anyway).

Thanks again for the advice/ideas all and Brighteyes I'm mostly trying your scientificly unproven method too ;)
 
Did your vet test for kidney function? Failed kidneys cause build-up of urea in the bloodstream and you can get some symptoms like poisoning. Mine was tested for colic and then cancer with a peritoneal tap before a kidney function test showed his kidneys had pretty much failed. It causes back pain, extreme hunger together with loss of weight, and mine reared when ridden and in hand too.

Kidney failure in a horse is rare and your vet may not have thought to test for it.

Fingers crossed for you.
 
He did test for Kidney function, and that came back fine too, not even a tiny bit of something showing there either....

Should speak to him later this evening so we'll see I guess, more than happy to keep updating in case it happens to anyone else (would rather it didn't)
 
Another thought for the cooking pot - could the leaping and bucking in the field be because he was stung? It has been so warm lately that the insects are out early, and a bee-keeping colleague of mine was only telling me today about how many swarms he has seen. Years ago I watched a ditsy arab riding school pony have a dose of the vapours after she was stung by something. There were two of us literally holding her up. The vet called his senior partner as he said it was one for the textbooks.

Feel free to PM me if you want as I have rather too much experience of equine epileptic seizures!
 
Possibly thoughts would be eyes? Has he ever been near ragwort?
Any chance of a head trauma?
they can get something called hepatic encephalopathy where the liver toxins essentially affect the brain and this does sound not dissimiliar from the symptoms you suggest. Any head pressing?
 
I’m sorry for the problems you are having. I can’t comment on your boy but can only give you my experiences of a couple of horses that I have know over the years.

The first was epileptic she would be standing in her stable and then literally just fall sideways, whilst vet was running test she also just keeled over whilst being led, lay there for a few seconds and then got up as if nothing had happened. No warning of the fits coming just keeled over, lay there for a while and then got up again, no other changes to her general temperament.

The second was a horse that I had know for over 15 years, he was the most lovely boy you could want to meet, calm, well mannered etc etc . He was about 20 years old when his owner noticed long skid marks in his paddock as if he had been flying around having a kick about. A few weeks later he had to be rescued after what appeared he had tried to jump the fence into the next paddock and got tangled up and was found lying on the other side of the fence with his rug still attached to the top of the fence (very unusual as he had never tried to jump out in all of the 15 years that she had had him – it was far to energetic a thing for him to do!!) Over the next few weeks he was noted to have more episodes of just suddenly taking off in the field and running into the fence. Vet ran tests but could not find anything obvious at this time. He then progressed to being aggressive whilst being handled, needing two people to change his rugs, suddenly bolting off when being led in / out, finally progressing to what can only be described as going mad in his stable at times crashing and kicking about…..he was a fantastic lovely boy and was unfortunately diagnosed with a brain tumour and put down instantly. Progression from initial skid marks in the field to when he was put down was only about 6 weeks. During this time in between the “manic” episodes he was his normal self, eating and drinking fine.

Sorry for the essay, just wanted to share my experiences with you. Good luck with your boy I hope it turns out to be something easily treated.
 
My sister's old pony suffered a severe allergic reaction in the field one day after being stung or bitten by something. He was galloping madly and when brought in was nearly collapsing. That could explain the behavioural symptoms, however, my first thought when reading your post was kidneys. However, your vet has ruled that out. When you say he has a fluid filled belly, is it oedema under his belly, as in you press with a finger and it leaves an indentation? This could indicate an allergic reaction, and excess fluid would pool there.
 
fatpiggy said:
What a horrible thing to happen for you and your horse. The most common cause of neurological problems in horses is actually the liver. The swelling of the belly sounds like fluid retention and I'm sure something in the back of my memory tells me that in humans, liver problems can cause abdominal swelling like that. Just as a thought, you say he was eating his straw bed. Could the straw have been sprayed with something? I only quite recently found out that modern straw is much shorter than it used to be, not because it is bred to be shorter, but because farmers spray it with growth retardant.

Hope things get better soon and you get an answer.
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Yes severe liver you get ascities (abdo fluid) and yellow tinge jaundice, bloods would be far from normal tho? Sounds like he was fitting in the field and woozy afterwards would also fit, and if the horse was toxic from liver etc would fit................ but normal bloods????
 
fatpiggy said:
It wouldn't do any harm for your vet to do a full neurological workup. The odd circle and stepping over a low obstacle doesn't cut the mustard! .
Click to expand...

Agree with Fat Piggy - how would that decide if a horse has neuro problems? Never heard of anything so ridiculous as stepping over a pole!!

My 10 yr old Wobbler WB gelding was jumping BSJA consistently at BN and discovery level when he had wobblers although we did not know it was that at the time although he was displaying very subtle signs, like hopping in canter and rubbing his back fetlocks together. The one day he failed to take off with this hind legs over a jump and ended up going through it and this was the turning point when we realised he had a problem. But it was only following the fall onto his neck that he developed ataxia and the full extent (after useless faffing by equally useless vets) was revealed. It still makes me very cross now. The last time he competed show jumping was a month before he was PTS with grade 3/4 wobblers (before we knew it was wobblers, it must be added). So my point being, walking a horse over a pole is of little benefit in assessing as my boy was jumping well at the time.

The tests below would give more of an accurate diagnosis. Suggest you get a friend to try the sway test (both wear riding hats and do this on a soft surface). If the horse has neuro problems this is one of the most reliable tests to peform. If you are in any doubt try it with a horse you know had no neuro problems so you will know the difference, although I am 100% sure you will know immediately if your horse isn't quite right.
http://equinewobblers.com/Diagnostics/Neurological_Examination.htm
 
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Hi just been reading you post & don't know if this will help you at all. We had a mare a couple of years ago who it turns out is basically epileptic. She was an allrounder; hunts, events pn, does low level dressage. We'd never noticed a problem until we had a desperate phone call from one of liveries saying the horse looked like it was fitting orhaving a heart attack. Vet was called & insisted horses can't get epilepsy. Bloods were normal. Horse went back to normal. 3 weeks later we had the horse at a competition & it happenned again. She presented as being bitten on the mouth, curling her top lip, then spinning or trying to rear up always to the left. She would then either land on her side or regain composure. Vet saw her straight away, bloods were take & again were normal.

We had cctv on her for a few months & it was the same symptoms every time & it would always be to the left. It happenned regularly every 3 weeks & we all got to recognise when it was about to happen as the mare would begin to act odd, be more 'touchy' to deal with & generally wasn't herself. Apart from looking slightly shocked after it happenned she always returned to normal.

She was investigated by a neurologist at Edinburgh who diagnosed her. All the spinning tests & over poles etc were like a normal horse except for the odd behaviour every 3 weeks.

Other thought is we had a horse of her own with liver problems. He was always a bit sill but he was a tb. He began acting really odd. When we put him out he wanted to be in & got odd to handle. We only got the result of liver damage from a biopsy. Sadly he got odder & became unrideable & just about ferrel.

Other though i would have is a tumour of the pituitary gland which we though was what was wrong with the epileptic horse first of all.

Don't know if any of this helps but worth a suggest!
 
Thank you all for the help and good wishes, we have pinned it down to a reaction to not eating properly (eating straw not hay) then rolling in nettles and reacting to it thus causing the rear/fit or having minor colic and reacting to that. Vet is convinced it is nothing more distressing than this. Thankfully vet did 8 out of the 10 tests mentioned in the above on request (he knows I like to be through) and again all fine. If it wasn't for here I probs wouldn't have known to ask, so thanks again. He also took further bloods as a precaution in case anything changed again, so far results have been the same.

He is currently out grazing with his pals as if nothing had happened and looking and behaving like his normal cheeky cute self, YO found him sparked out and paniced but he was fine!

Thanks again, all help appreciated as it has given me huge peace of mind!
 
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