stretched or 'gathered up'

[santander]

My relatively youthful young man needs to gather strength and topline. I've been watching a lot of the critique vids from 'art2ride.com' and really like the philiosophy of will faber who emphasises the importance of following the horses head movement with the hand, neither pulling nor looping the reins, just allowing the horse to develop his topline slowly over time into eventual self carriage.

Now this is all great, but.... my dressage scores since doing this have deteriorated and seem to be getting worse! I came home today with a prelim score of just 59%. I dug out a couple of training session videos on my horse that I'd had with a (very accomplished and famous) rider trainer, and the difference in my horses way of going in these videos is remarkable. In the sessions he is stomping along in a relatively collected fashion, full of impulsion and energy. However I recall these training sessions that I was ABSOLUTELY HAULING on the outside rein until he was 'through' as trainer identified it.

This seems totally at odds with the 'stretch it out' technique that Feber uses.

So my question is: what do you guys think? I can't afford lessons at the moment (hence the you tube study) and as a result I'm very confused. I can't believe that my trainer guy is getting it wrong, but Feber talks about never pulling on the horses mouth.

Arghhhhh !!!!

Please, discuss!

 

[Walrus]

Not heard of the Feber guy but one thing to look at might be what do his horses look like when being ridden? And what sorts of scores are they getting? It would be useful to even just get one lesson with someone who subscribes to these techniques if this is what you want to follow as what it looks like someone good is doing and how you interpret what he is describing could be quite different to what he's actually doing if that makes sense!

 

[JFTDWS]

There's a difference between "pulling" and having contact. Without seeing, it's hard to judge whether you've gone too far in the extreme of throwing away any contact (and therefore a lot of marks in a test), or what's going on. I wouldn't want to be hauling on the outside rein either though tbh.

 

[santander]

Yes it does make sense, thank you. Feber has got me a bit worried about the 'gather them up and kick them on' kind of way I have always been taught. I was always under the impression that you can't have too strong a contact if you have a flexible elbow and wrist - now I'm insecure in this philosophy. I don't think Feber competes from what I can gather (I think he has taken a diversion with rehabing etc). His horses look incredibly strong, relaxed and correct. I was always told that you should commit to one system of doing anything, and this is ringing true for me now, as I am flailing in my own methods now. Uncertain as to wether I'm doing harm by 'containing the energy from the hindlegs' in a, er..... strong contact.

 

[santander]

Thanks JFTD - I hear you. I haven't thrown the contact away at all, in fact in my tests I'm asking for a higher poll than I would ask for at home, and to accomplish this I'm 'holding' him in a frame. feber says this holding in a frame is very bad, but my trainer says that this is ok, as long as you work the hind legs through and then he will come lighter. As in in that very session, not eventually or some time in the future. Hope that makes sense.

 

[be positive]

As JFTD says you may well have gone too far the other way, letting the horse dictate their carriage is great in theory but takes real feel to do effectively, they really need to be pushing from behind, the softness can be false if they are not powering the engine and this will get picked up by the judges as lacking impulsion and possibly end up with a horse being behind the leg.
I would miss a competition or two and have a lesson instead, it is easy to get stuck in a rut when you are trying to develop a new way, or improved way, of working a session or two with a trainer would be worthwhile to get you back on track.

 

[santander]

Thanks positive. You're right, back on track is what I need.

 

[countercanterr]

Just came across this and thought I would reply to hopefully give you a bit of encouragement to continue the good work I came across Will's videos a couple of years ago when I was rehabbing a couple of rescue ponies. I didn't follow his method fully back then because I hadn't watched enough to fully understand it but I did quite a lot of stretching on the lunge and it really helped them muscle up and gain condition quickly.
I then got my current mare in October 2014. She was a 4yo who hadn't done much work but she was quite overbent and shortened. When riding she felt soft in the hand but this was because she was ducking behind the vertical too much and not coming through behind at all. I started out doing lunging with her, using side reins/chambon. I did mostly lunging and groundwork until about May this year (main reason for no riding was because I couldn't find a saddle to fit her, ended up buying a schleese and had to wait for a fitter to come to the UK to alter it for me). She now lunges without any sort of training aids and stretches completely on her own consistently. Her stride has gotten 10x longer, she is truly coming through from behind and using her back end, and she looks like she has gained so much length in her neck too. Plus she's now sane and relaxed in work. She is almost completely consistent in the contact whilst ridden too, in both a stretch and when I bring her poll up. I had to be careful with this in the beginning because of her breaking behind the vertical, but that has improved so much to the point where she hardly does it anymore.
Her physiotherapist has said the change in her muscling is quite remarkable for the time frame in which she saw her, and my saddle fitter said her back curve has changed as she has a much more developed topline. She also said she can see from the readings that she has started to pull up through the withers

As far as I'm aware Will doesn't compete himself at the moment but he used to be a successful eventer and his wife has competed quite far up the levels with a rehab horse. His students do compete successfully . He trained with Nuno Oliveira.

When training at home did you bring the poll up during sessions or just at shows? and did your horse get truly consistent in the stretch (whilst maintaining a contact) before you began bringing up the poll? I wouldn't worry about the tests. If you were fighting with your horse to get him working 'properly' beforehand then in my opinion, that trainer was wrong. If the contact was heavy then the horse was on the forehand, not working properly through the back- and when he eventually softened it is possible he just gave in with his head and continued with a hollow back? Also the previous poster is right about making sure the horse is actually coming through properly. Just because the horse is stretched doesn't mean they're working properly. Stretching the neck down is what frees up the back in young/undeveloped horses and makes it easy for them to lift it but it doesn't mean they will completely lift and come through from behind by themselves, you will still have to make sure they are stepping through and tracking up. It may take a while for you be able to feel this but videoing yourself can be very helpful, as well as lunging so you can see it from the ground and compare.

Anyway I hope this helped a little. Will is fantastic and his horses go beautifully so I don't see any reason why he would be wrong. He is really helpful and responsive to messages too so I'm sure he'd be happy to help if you contacted him He is coming here for a clinic this year, I can't wait!

Here's some pictures of my mare- I have submitted to Will so you may have seen her before.

 

[Goldenstar]

The horse develops by stretching and contracting it's muscles so you need to do both to develop the horse strength and it's balance .
To train a horse you have learn how to influence it without hauling the head into position.
I think it's one of those holy grail moment when you begin to understand how to influence the horse within the contact and the horse begins to understand how to give it's self up willingly to the training .
Of course I have never seen your horse so can't comment on how it goes perhaps try a couple of lessons with a good trainer .
Stretching and taking the rein down only helps if it does not put the horse on it's forehand which can easily happen .
It's a very good thing to have a enquiring mind and search out lots of different stuff and I think it you feel you were hauling on the outside rein during that lesson you mentioned you were and it's was less than ideal .
Good luck with your journey with your horse .

 

[Cortez]

The reply to OP's original heading is.........both "stretched" and "gathered"; it is not an either or question. In fact one of the very best tests of your training is to ask the horse to stretch into your hand by offering the rein, if he takes it out and down in a relaxed way then you have done a good job. But it's not a position to ask for very long periods, perhaps a couple of steps and then ask for the contact again with the horse meeting your hand and stepping up and forwards with the engine (hind leg).

I have not heard of the gentleman you refer to, where is he based? I would be a little suspicious of trainers who eschew competition, walking the walk is if nothing else a good promotional activity.

 

[countercanterr]

I agree with you and I imagine Will would too. He doesn't say a horse must only be stretched, he is always saying that once the horse is taught how to stretch into and seek the contact, then you should start bringing the poll up. He is based in San Diego.

 

[Pigeon]

I agree I'm also wary of teachers who don't compete, but I had a little watch of his videos and didn't see anything not to like! I do think some schools of classical take things a little TOO slowly, but his videos seem to have good progression and when the horses are picked up, all of the basics are there. He seems to do mainly rehab, with longevity in mind, which I think is nice to see. I know stretching is good for spinal issues.

Admittedly we're pretty new to dressage (you've had some more experienced people reply already) and still finding our way, but you really need to get an instructor who has a similar outlook to you. It took me quite a long time to find someone who suited us. It may help you to have a schoolmaster lesson? Doesn't have to be a high level horse, just something that is very established at working properly, then you can get the feel and transfer it to your own horse. I think following Will's method won't do any harm, but it probably would help to have some eyes on the ground. Don't worry too much about your scores - If we're competing in a new place and my horse is very tense, we work in a slightly longer, lower outline to keep things relaxed. Judges hate it, but I'm aware of what I'm doing, and we're making a short term sacrifice for long term goals.

The things to remember - everything has to come from the hind end! If your horse isn't bending his hocks and taking weight behind, no amount of stretching will build his topline. We also struggle with my horse taking to contact forward (he can be too light in the hand, and it's so easy to let that slide!) and someone said the horse should be like a strung bow, even in a stretch, which I think is quite a good analogy. You don't need a heavy contact, but you need something there!!

 

[Cortez]

He is based in San Diego.

Ah, Americans.......