stroppy almost unrideable mare

pinkyp1968

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I have had my 15 yr old Cleveland X mare for 6 months now. She appeared bolshy and lacking in manners at first. She cannot be bridled easily and I have worked so hard with that. I have had a behaviouralist come and assess her twice, had her teeth checked and have tried different bits. She came in a hanging cheek mullen which she seemed to have serious aversion to. I have tried her in a thicker snaffle and loose ring rubber mullen. I have decided to get rid of the bit completely and go bitless. She extends her neck and crosses her jaw when worried, confused or stressed.
Now I cant even get her away from the other mare (elderly ex racehorse) who this mare absolutely dominates. She plunges, tries to gallop off and has started coming across as mean. She cant be led quietly even in the field as she tries to trot off in front of you and circle. I feel there is some separartion anxiety here as well as wilfullness.
When riding her out she constantly tries to go back to the field but can be kept going. When turned for home she tries to take off and if I try and keep a hold of her she plunges, bucks and rears. This happened the last time I rode her as the worst she has ever been and I admit it has un-nerved me now and am losing confidence.
I am far from a novice rider as my ex racehorse mare can be quite psychotic at times but I know she would not be malicious. Wheras this mare, I feel could attack. I dont want to sound dramatic but even the behaviouralist later said she felt uneasy around her but couldnt put her finger on it. She feels she is really an Alpha female and has some issues which we have been working on.
She hasnt had an easy life although I am sketchy on details. She was beaten about the head for stealing other horses food a few years ago. Her previous owner stated she had had owners who had basically turned her away so I am starting to suspect this problem has always been here.
She doesnt have any respect and will do things but only on her terms and when she wants. How can I build up the respect. She really needs exercising as she is very fat now from not been ridden as much as she needs. I have the time but I have started to feel unsafe on her.
Apologies for the long post, please feel free to ask questions as I am sure I havent covered it all. I am considering selling her back to the previous owner but dont want to give up on her. I actually bought her as a safe horse for my partner to ride who is not as experiencedas I am. There is no way I would put him aboard
 
I read the first half of your thread and assumed you were a novice, being taken advantage of.

Clearly you're not, and it sounds like your mare is agressive and dangerous. I know it's not what you want to hear, but particularly at the moment, there are so many lovely kind horses in need of good homes. I wouldn't think twice about getting rid. You should be spending your time and money on an affectionate horse who likes being with you, loves work and brings you joy. Oh, and won't kill you or anyone else!
 
Mares who have been abused earlier in life can USUALLY be persuaded that they don't HAVE to keep behaving like that. But of course she IS part Cleveland - and they can be stroppy sods if it suits them. However, the type of behaviour you describe would suggest a hormonal problem - does she come into season regularly??
 
Thanks for you replies. I bought her (well actually my boyfriend did) so he can ride her too. As I said this is not safe. I have ridden some ******s in my time and my old mare can be positively psychotic at times !! This is on big girl to be out of control I can tell you. I needed a weight carrier as my BF is 15 stone. I have to say after months of searching, we were giving up hope of finding something suitable. I dont want to give up but like the poster said, I should be enjoying riding and not dreading it.
She came into season shortly after arriving and has been regularly in and out which is not surprising having two mares together. My previous experience with herbal supplements for this has been that it really didnt have a massive impact.
 
I guess that you could get the vet to give her a check over, maybe she has something going on that could be fixed or managed
 
If she were mine, firstly I would get a thermal imaging scan done of her.

Secondly, I would then get the vet out to check out any hotspot areas that may show up on the scan, and try getting her ovaries scanned.
 
Ooops sorry missed that bit out!!! The vet has seen her and done a thorough going over. Her bloods were fine and he personally thought this was behavioural. She started getting stroppy about something whilst he was there so he could see how she is. His words were, bolshy, stroppy and no manners. Possibly some issues from either abuse or been indulged and not treated like a horse (babied).
Have been working her from the floor asking for movement and reward using the advance/retreat method. Plenty of backing up and transitions whilst been led. All well until she doesnt want to!!!
I am just stumped as to how I can gain her trust and respect.
 
I assume you have re-evaluated her feed, so no mollasses and maybe worth checking for deficiencies such as mag ox. 6 months isn't that long so I wouldn't write her off just yet. If shes been abused of course its going to take a lot longer for her to gain trust in you. A lot of posters on here recommend regumate to see if that helps if it is to do with seasons. An RA may be able to teach you some trust/respect exercises. I guess it all boils down to if you have the time, patience and money to work with the girl or not.
 
She isnt fed at all. She is out 24/7 and thinking about it on fresh grass which has not been grazed since last Sept flush. Her behaviour with regards to bronking,refusing to walk away from the other mare and ridden issues perhaps could have co-incided with this move. I jut assumed the move had upset her but maybe she is getting too much from the grass. She is such a good doer, I have to watch her weight. I stopped using food as a reward due to her bullying. She loves grooming and scratches so am using those instead.
We are moving back to our original paddock soon and am dreading riding her across. Its only a mile but I cant ride my old gal out with another horse even if I could find someone to help. We always strip graze but maybe I should really reallt restrict her and see if it makes a difference. What do you think? Its great to tell your story as sometimes the obvious could be staring you in the face.
I have time to work with her and currently do about 15 mins in morning and anything up to an hour in afternoon depending on her reactions.I leave her a day or so and she clearly demonstrated latent learning. I really dont want to give up on her and I think youre right 6 months isnt long. Maybe I am just disillusioned.
 
Sounds like a toxic combination of a horse that has been babied, treated unfairly and is a hormonal alpha mare. But you sound like you already know what is wrong with her. At 15 I really don't know how much you can achieve with her, maybe a lot maybe very little. For the behavioural side of things you could try a super strict routine in which you can consistently make your expectations of her quite clear. :(
 
Sorry Wench.... no havent had that done. Will need to get back in touch with the vet I think? I presume he didnt suggest it as her blood hormonal levels were fine. Must admit I am not very knowledgeable on that sort of thing
 
Sounds like a toxic combination of a horse that has been babied, treated unfairly and is a hormonal alpha mare. But you sound like you already know what is wrong with her. At 15 I really don't know how much you can achieve with her, maybe a lot maybe very little. For the behavioural side of things you could try a super strict routine in which you can consistently make your expectations of her quite clear. :(

Have to say I totally agree 100% with this advice. I think routine is key in unpredictable horses, or any animal infact.
 
I know you're experienced, but would it help you to have an instructor come and work with you both on the ground every week or so for a little while? I think sometimes having someone on the ground is great for spotting little changes that could help, and it will also give you some much needed moral support :)
 
Mine was like this & turned out to have an ovarian tumour. When they took it out, it was the size of a football & weighed 15 lbs. It was making her think that she was a stallion.

After around 6 weeks, her hormone levels sorted themselves out & she turned from a kicking, biting, stroppy madam into a docile horse. In fact, TOO docile, cos I got bored of her & sold her!

That's really interesting - were her bloods normal?
 
I agree Ghostie. I have had the behviouralist who watched me work her and could point out some minor tweaks as I may have not been clear in what I was asking her to do. I thinks its good for an objective eye.
 
I had a Cleveland bay x Anglo Arab mare about 9 years ago who was a lot like yours when I first got her as a 25 year old (the horse being 25) she would bolt, drag me around, was bolshie and was generally very difficult to handle due to her being a thoroughly spoilt little brat who always got her own way! (luckily I didn't pay a lot for her) anyway I persevered with her, being firm and doing lots of long lining out on hacks so it didn't matter how much of a paddy she threw I was never in danger and she was never allowed to get her own way (she would get a crack on the backside with the long line when she kicked off to send her forward again) she got a lot of lessons in manners and ended up being a very nice relaxed horse that respected me and my space, I regularly put my disabled mother on her to come hacking with me.
I had her for 4 years until I lost her to a twisted gut.
I would give her some serious lessons in the manners department with long lining and ground work then see how she is when she is given some boundaries x
 
I would do what some have suggested - never mind a behaviourist as such, get some groundwork lessons with a decent instructor, a NH type who can explain the behaviour and show you that you need to be clear in what you are asking the mare to do.

I have to say I have done this with my 4 yo and it has helped me a lot. I need to be firm with him and very clear in my instructions. He's a big lad and too big to be pushing me about (he's not nasty/aggressive in any way though). It really sounds like your mare is seriously lacking in confidence to be honest and this is something she will need to get from her rider/handler. She has probably never had clear boundaries set for her ever and you have only had her 6mths. These issues are probably very deeply ingrained. She may well need to have some type of supplement if she's quite an aggressive, dominant mare with others - have a chat to your vet if there is maybe something that will help her (ie regumate or something similar)
 
We had a mare at our yard just like this she was a big girl over 17 hands. The lady that got her did an amazing job of turning her around, She did everything you said.

The owner was very strict, led her in a bridle only with a crop in hand. Did loads of ridden work just pushing her every all the time until she just gave in. She was a smasher when she sold her on.

The new owners are now have problems with her but she sold her with 3 A4 crib sheets stating what she can be like and what to do.

I second the restricted grazing, use a bridle or dually, get those ground manners in place and go from there. Also suggest a stresses mare supplement of mag one.
 
Really get her ovaries scanned... It's quick, simple and relatively cheap. You will then know if there is anything wrong inside.

When I asked on here about getting blood test taking for hormonal problems I was told that its virtually impossible as you would need to take many different samples at different times to work out what's "normal" for that horse. Or something along those lines anyway.

The thermal scan should also help, as for about £85 you can get the whole horse done, it would show up any possible pain areas.

Have you also considered ulcers?
 
TBH the separation anxiety is quite common for lots of horses kept in pairs isn't it?

And she obviously hasn't had a great start.

Loads of good advice on here... would just add keep positive :-)
 
My mare can be horrible,But ive had her from 3 months old so know her quite well,she is now 6 years. Some days If its windy,rainy, something going on in the yard so its busy I dont bother to ride her as I know it will be disasterous,I now have a sharer who she frightened last summer and gave up riding her even though she was telling me she was.
We are having lessons with a brilliant instructor and who got on her one day to try and show me what she was trying to explain to me,Well she napped and tried to rear,ears back and neck stuck out, sideways across the school,she was trying it on!
During the winter she was impossible to bring in and out safely and would stand by the gate waiting to come in so she ended up staying in for days on end where she was happy and out of the bad weather! I give her magnitude but not sure if it has much effect if the weather is very bad,eg windy! I think if my mare went to a new home she would be just as you describe until she settled.Good luck with your mare I would be interested to know if she improves as you get to know each other.
 
Sorry I have responded to your comments on my phone but they aren't coming up!!!
Thanks for all your replies and suggestions, they have made me more determined if anything to get to the bottom of this. My old girl had a bitting problem with no know cause after many diferent professionals looking at her. To cut a long story short on one occasion it was discovered one of her teeth was dislodged. It was suspected to be broken following a kick in the face in the field. She was seen at Newmarket and xrayed which showed a condition of diasthema where she had big gaps inbetween her teeth which kept getting food packed in resulting in constant low grade infection. The vet asked what she was like to ride...a dream sometimes and a psycho the others!!! He said I am not surprised, this is whats wrong and no-one can see it without an Xray. 2 teeth were removed and a bitless bridle used and hey presto a relatively calmer horse. I am like a terrier when it comes to getting to the bottom of things.
My partner technically owns and funds her needs but if I need to get someone else out I will pay if I have to. I have assumed her head issues are psychological but maybe there is a physical cause. I am in Sth Lincs, any recommendation for a cranio person round here? I will mention the scanning and ask for it when I speak to the vet, thanks for the explanation.
Now off to find a good instructor hehe!!
 
I have no experience with mares, and I will admit I am a novice albeit an experienced one. When I first started to share Boyo he could be a bit of a handful, not on your scale, but planting when ridden, boxing at me when taken out in hand and so on.

A good few months down the line and he is almost a star in hand. No more bolshing, and will stand back up and walk on to voice commands. We are getting there with the 'head up' but the lush grass we have to lead over is driving him nuts as he is a fattie ex lammie! As I said I am no expert, and he is a gelding, but I feel we have made real headway by using groundwork, especially on the way from field to stable and vice versa. Whether there is a bucket or haynet or lush grass waiting for him at the other end, I always do lots of in hand transitions and yielding to pressure of his back end whilst I bring in/turn out and I honestly believe it has made him a better pony to handle in all ways, and to ride. He never plants now, but does spook at imaginary dragons... hes a welshie though so part and parcel of the package :D

Prob not much help sorry... just wanted to share :)
 
OP My mare sounds so similar.

I have been down the same routes, behavourists, absolutely everything checked. I was at my wits end. It was agreed she was a dominant, alpha mare (also 17hh) and dangerous. I was advised to get rid, but I feared for her future tbh.

She was like this since the day I got her home at 2 years old. She has however been totally turned around since breaking in, changing yard and having very regular work, she has also been put on Oestress and Regumate. Honestly she is a changed mare. Couldn't be happier.

I would strongly suggest you check out the hormonal route as well as giving her a strict home and work routine.

Hope it works out for you.
 
She doesnt have any respect and will do things but only on her terms and when she wants. How can I build up the respect. She really needs exercising as she is very fat now from not been ridden as much as she needs. I have the time but I have started to feel unsafe on her.

Have you done a lot of work on manners on the ground? I'd work on as much stuff as possible on the ground at the moment, for example you say she's bad to lead - get that sorted first. I also had a horse who was very bargy and would tank off on the lead to begin with, get a thin string halter which tightens when they pull as mine really respected that and eventually I could revert back to a normal headcollar. Work on leading in and out of a stable, loading/unloading into a trailer/box etc. - even if you dont plan to go anywhere, its just another ground exercise to do which teaches her to listen to you. Make sure she's polite about every single thing, down to picking up her feet to be picked out etc. just spend lots of time on these tiny things and dont give an inch or it sounds like she takes a mile.

There's no excuse IMO for her to be too fat. Exercise isn't the only way to keep weight off, reduce her grazing would be the first thing I'd do! Then I'd work on lungeing, get that perfected before you think about riding again.
 
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