Stud fees and AI and natural

[ladyaga]

Hello, I am resorting to you all, poss much more experienced then me.
I took three mares to a stud, and it was chosen as they did natural service. They also had an AI area too, with the pen for insemanating also. When I got there I was charged £150 per horse towards the stud fee of Of each. They were out at grass a further£5 per day, being fed silage, un be known to me at the time, loosing weight, all the time. I opted to have them scanned at 14 days, one was in foal by natural service, the other two, empty, we visited and took one mare home, the proven breeder and a maiden remained, to be mated again, I was told that they were better being ai'd but was also told seaman was needed to be posted off to else where so the collection was devided. One mare is older in her teens, and I was told she would not of been happy with natural, and for my eyes, the stud owner was often on her own, and it really needs two min handlers. So I bought them both home, and they are empty. All livery fees are paid, but they are chasing me for the balance of the one in foals fee. Now I have asked them to use the fees lodged against the two empty mares. £300 they are telling me no foal free return, I would not be wishing to send the girls back there. I have looked at the terms etc, and it is not anymore clear then I have written above. I will have to forfeit the service cert, but so what. It seems to me you can put any old name on a passport anyway. Help

 

[ihatework]

Your post is not massively clear but can I summize you wish to not pay your full bill because you had unsuccessful pregnancy?

This generally is not how it works. You pay the livery whether you get a foal or not
You then pay the stud fee on top, under the terms specified which in this case is a free return.

In short you accepted the T&Cs when sending your mares to stud. So pay up what you owe.

 

[MissTyc]

^ as above

If you don't want to send your mare back but they do AI, why not have the vet do AI with the free return semen either at yours or at the vet clinic (usually easier at the clinic)?

 

[PorkChop]

To me it sounds as though there has been problems with communication on both sides.

Was it the same stallion for all three mares? I presume it was no foal free return for all three and you knew this before sending them?

Bottom line is yes, you owe them the money imo.

From what you have described the stud haven't done anything wrong, it sounds to me like you maybe had not asked enough questions before you sent you mare's there, sorry.

 

[honetpot]

If you are unhappy with their care I would have them AI'd at home, what ever you do its not cheap and you will have to pay the stud fee.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Having worked at a public stud using stallions, all I can say is that there is a great deal more involved than one might imagine., other than just the cost of grass keep.
A specialist vet is needed etc etc but all these incidental cost should be detailed and charged separately. Its an expensive exercise and you may not have realised just what you were getting in to when you sent the mares there.
If they don't have great facilities or the best of vets and staff, then sorry, but you should have been more enquiring before sending them there. There is always a chance no one could get the two barren mares in foal, we cannot be sure.

 

[cundlegreen]

I'm a one woman operation here, and to save wasting anybody's time, I always tell mare owners to get the mare scanned by a proper equine vet before coming to my stallion. Some older mares are simply not up to covering naturally due to build up of fluid in the uterus. No stallion in the world will get such a mare in foal without drug intervention, and then sometimes not then anyway, and they then lose their 100% fertility record. ( I know this as it happened here). I won't do NFFR now, because of this. I do payment in full before collection, hold the cheque until 42 day scan. If the mare is in foal, and they usually are, then fine, if not, the money for stud fee is returned. There is a lot of work in getting a mare in foal. Teasing takes a lot of time if done properly, and as I'm on my own, I want to know that a mare is really ready for the stallion. Works for me.....

 

[popsdosh]

I'm a one woman operation here, and to save wasting anybody's time, I always tell mare owners to get the mare scanned by a proper equine vet before coming to my stallion. Some older mares are simply not up to covering naturally due to build up of fluid in the uterus. No stallion in the world will get such a mare in foal without drug intervention, and then sometimes not then anyway, and they then lose their 100% fertility record. ( I know this as it happened here). I won't do NFFR now, because of this. I do payment in full before collection, hold the cheque until 42 day scan. If the mare is in foal, and they usually are, then fine, if not, the money for stud fee is returned. There is a lot of work in getting a mare in foal. Teasing takes a lot of time if done properly, and as I'm on my own, I want to know that a mare is really ready for the stallion. Works for me.....

To get the stallion name on any meaningful PIO you will need a covering certificate.So good luck sticking any old name on the passport as it will be meaningless and any serious buyer will see well past it.

To be honest it is people like you who cause small studs to stop doing it ,if you dont like the Ts&Cs dont go there but dont try to change the goalpost when it doesnt suit you.

 

[ester]

It's your choice not to send them back there, but the terms with NFFR not no foal no fee it would seem? So you should pay up.

 

[Equi]

When my mare was covered I paid the stud fee on a no foal free return basis. I adopted that with my own stallion, how wet have not needed a return! The stallion/stud are sill doing their job/service and deserve the fee.

 

[ladyaga]

I am not sure you have got the point I am making, I expected the vet to be more involved so as AI was not done willy billy, I should of been told I feel that it was AI and not natural, I feel it would of been the correct thing to ask me first. I could of used my home vets who have the mare in for the heat, scan most days to cover when they are really ready, and not willy Milly. Also with the stud they were away a lot comparing, so poss missing heats, as on one weekend the stallion was away competing, and it was all a rush on a Monday. Not happy, and to think they had three mares from me.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Yes, I see why you are unhappy, but I think you still have to pay, and if you feel you have a case you could go to court, but it is their word against yours and for that reason alone, I think it would be unlikely to succeed. The law however does take in to consideration their professional status v your less knowledgeable status. I really think it is natural for you feel aggrieved but also frustrated by the whole thing.
The BHS Gold member legal helpline might give you advice.

 

[SusieT]

I think if you paid for natural and Ai was used its out your consent run I would not expect to pay for those two mares unless you knew in advance about Ai?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I think if you paid for natural and Ai was used its out your consent run I would not expect to pay for those two mares unless you knew in advance about Ai?

Yes, if you wanted to you could probably hold back on that AI payment and let them take you to court for those fees, but again you would need legal advice, as it puts you in the wrong.
UNLESS the invoice is for services you did not want, ie if the main reason for sending mares was for natural covering and they were covered by AI. without your permission, then arguably you are entitled to have all the costs back, but you should have protested at the time.
You seem to be aware of what was happening at the time, or were you told after?
If you can find a sensible compromise then this would be viewed favourably by the courts, just randomly refusing to pay an outstanding amount does not look good.
A small claims is max £3000, but is there one contract for each mare, or one covering all three? You will have to get legal advice, and the BHS helpline will advise, but in any case you need to decide what outcome is going to be realistic. Essentially you have lost twelve months, and your costs in those particular twelve months may be recoverable, but that would be the best case scenario. Even if you were awarded those costs, you still have to get them back.
With such a complicated case you would really need legal advice, court representation, and an expert witness to guide the Magistrate through the legalities, if there are two contracts you might end up with two days in court with all the associated costs being doubled.
If the mares were not receptive to the stallion, it is unlikely they were ready for insemination, but that is not something you can readily prove.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

If you have paid the covering fee, you should be entitled to the certificate, I should make it clear that you have paid for the mare which is in foal, did you not ask for the paperwork when you removed her, and pay for all her costs on that day?

 

[ester]

I was told that they were better being ai'd but was also told seaman was needed to be posted off to else where so the collection was devided.

I am still finding your posts a bit confusing OP, you say the above which implies you were told about the AI beforehand, then you say you weren't told?

Also the other mare you took home? So only one was AId anyway?

 

[JanetGeorge]

It sounds like a breakdown in communication. AI is almost always as good as natural - if done properly. And no all mares get in foal, first ime or second. I have always had good results with both, for MOST mares, including a 17yo who hadn't foaled in 10 years (though she took a lot of work and 3 attempts.)

But I always scan mares on arrival (unless they arrive in season when the stallion does his job.) But scanning first means you know were they are in the cycle and if there are any problems that might require further work - cysts, fluid retention, etc. etc etc. TALK to the stud owner - try to get an understanding. I doubt it would help going to court! Just cost more.

 

[cundlegreen]

To get the stallion name on any meaningful PIO you will need a covering certificate.So good luck sticking any old name on the passport as it will be meaningless and any serious buyer will see well past it.

To be honest it is people like you who cause small studs to stop doing it ,if you dont like the Ts&Cs dont go there but dont try to change the goalpost when it doesnt suit you.

Sorry, are you referring to me or the OP? Obviously, my stallion is licensed with the WPCS and a covering certificate is supplied. I'm not sure what you are getting at.....

 

[ester]

That was in response to the OP saying she wouldn't get a covering certificate but you can put any old name down as sire in a passport anwyay....

 

[ladyaga]

I am not sure you have got the point I am making, I expected the vet to be more involved so as AI was not done willy billy, I should of been told I feel that it was AI and not natural, I feel it would of been the correct thing to ask me first. I could of used my home vets who have the mare in for the heat, scan most days to cover when they are really ready, and not willy Milly. Also with the stud they were away a lot comparing, so poss missing heats, as on one weekend the stallion was away competing, and it was all a rush on a Monday. Not happy, and to think they had three mares from me.

I am not making myself clear. I chose the stud and stallion as they did natural. I was not told till after they had done AI, and then it was because they needed semen to send away, so my mare was AI'd on this day [the one that got in foal]
Mare 2 who was a proven breeder, was always AI'd which I was told after the event.
Mare 3 first time breeder, AI'd on all occasions, but none of this was discussed with me, I was just sent a text to say they had been covered, which days, and was I going to leave them for a 14 day scan or collect. I chose to leave to be scanned, as it was far away, and I had paid a deposit part fee on each one. Yes all livery fees were paid on collection, cash along with the vets bill. Two mares remained to be covered again, and I then was told one was too nervous to natural cover, the other I was not given a reason for. but as the owner mainly worked single handed, it was probably easier. When she had the collection, off to the kitchen to pack a semen sample for sending off, then go and ai mare waiting, phone rings, some one calls, who know all sorts of delays, may be my mare was out still. I don't know how quick you have to be for fresh.
Don't blame me stud owner, I took my beautiful mares in good faith, who came home looking like hat racks, been fed silage in a field. I have paid well over one thousand pounds, and am very sad and upset at the way I was treated, on hind site it was less money to send them to the vets yard, £250 for the heat days and have them inseminated, with proper scans daily. you live and learn.

 

[PorkChop]

Whilst I completely understand that you are upset that you were not made aware of the situation, I do still feel there were certain details that you should have asked before taking your mares to the stud.

If they really have come home looking like hat racks then I would certainly be taking pictures as proof.

I also think one thousand pounds is very little to have paid for the above - this has been the amount I have paid - at least - to send only one mare to stud.

 

[ladyaga]

One mare got in foal, but even she was AI'd on the third service, I was only told after the event

 

[ladyaga]

The grand + was livery fees, and it was over £400 each mare, then the stud fee's vets etc, and thin mares on return

 

[popsdosh]

One mare got in foal, but even she was AI'd on the third service, I was only told after the event

To be honest it it is not unusual for mares to be AId at stud,even when you think it is a natural covering a lot depends on the stallions work requirements . I am assuming that you were not charged for this as your total bill is not exactly large this has happened many times for me and at the end of the day you send your mare to get her in foal and for whatever reason you appear to have pulled the plug on that yourself through maybe impatience. . I think most breeders would be happy if their total bill ends up at 1k a mare generally thats the way it goes. Maybe your choice of stud has been misled however as long as they have fullfills their T&Cs its up to you to cough up but I guess they were only chosen as they seemed bargain basement.
Just a tip for future reference most studs are very flexible in their terms especially if you have multiple mares but its up to you to negotiate before you start, I havent paid full advertised price for any in the last five years.

 

[honetpot]

I can understand your frustration, but covering takes time and if there was one person doing it there would be a temptation to cut corners. I would like to know who did the AI, as they were doing natural for a reason. The budget for getting a mare in foal is about £1000, so if your bill is a £1000 for three someone has got to have cut some corners.
I sent my mare for natural covering one year when it was really dry and the stud were quite open they were short of grass and they were feeding extra hay. I think went to drop them off, you have to have a walk round and make sure everything looks OK.
This year I had my mare covered by AI, the vet checked the semen inseminated and there was a report from the stud on it before it was dispatched.

 

[ladyaga]

The £1000 was for grass livery for the three, though only two were there for a further 3 weeks. Then there was the stud fees, these are three retired due to injury event mares, my first time at this. We chose a top class stallion, with a foal just sold for 6k not weaned yet. Where do you send this kind of mare to stud please.

 

[Maesfen]

Where do you send this kind of mare to stud please.

A decent stud, not a one man band that you know might well be away competing too. Do your homework.

 

[honetpot]

The £1000 was for grass livery for the three, though only two were there for a further 3 weeks. Then there was the stud fees, these are three retired due to injury event mares, my first time at this. We chose a top class stallion, with a foal just sold for 6k not weaned yet. Where do you send this kind of mare to stud please.

I live near Newmarket and some of the studs have their charges on their website, so I would have a look at a few,
http://www.nationalstud.co.uk/stud/boardingprices.aspx. Its like everything you buy some will want more and its up to you to decide if its worth it, but you should have known what you were getting for your money.
By the sounds of it you would perhaps been better off having them scanned at home, and then have them inseminated at a specialist centre, there are quite a few now, and see if you could negotiate the fees for three. http://www.newmarketequinehospital.com/neh/breeding-services/artificial-insemination.aspxThe stallion I choose this year is competing, we just communicated really well.

 

[ladyaga]

No I totally agree, so AI'd a total waste of time. And no I was told by messenger she had AI them after the event, and I still have the messages

 

[sywell]

I am not making myself clear. I chose the stud and stallion as they did natural. I was not told till after they had done AI, and then it was because they needed semen to send away, so my mare was AI'd on this day [the one that got in foal]
Mare 2 who was a proven breeder, was always AI'd which I was told after the event.
Mare 3 first time breeder, AI'd on all occasions, but none of this was discussed with me, I was just sent a text to say they had been covered, which days, and was I going to leave them for a 14 day scan or collect. I chose to leave to be scanned, as it was far away, and I had paid a deposit part fee on each one. Yes all livery fees were paid on collection, cash along with the vets bill. Two mares remained to be covered again, and I then was told one was too nervous to natural cover, the other I was not given a reason for. but as the owner mainly worked single handed, it was probably easier. When she had the collection, off to the kitchen to pack a semen sample for sending off, then go and ai mare waiting, phone rings, some one calls, who know all sorts of delays, may be my mare was out still. I don't know how quick you have to be for fresh.
Don't blame me stud owner, I took my beautiful mares in good faith, who came home looking like hat racks, been fed silage in a field. I have paid well over one thousand pounds, and am very sad and upset at the way I was treated, on hind site it was less money to send them to the vets yard, £250 for the heat days and have them inseminated, with proper scans daily. you live and learn.

I have always used AI and had a good working relationship with my vet he would scan as she was coming into heat, he would pop in on his way to work so i could order the semen before nine in the morning from the stud in Germany and collect the next morning from the the carriers depot at 7.30 and he would come in on his way to work and pop the semen in. I chose AI because of the stress to the mare by travelling away from the herd,less chance of sexually transmitted disease and if the AI failed, as we knew the motility of the semen we knew it was most likely a mare problem not a stallion problem.