Sullen 4 yr old, advice please!

kerilli

kerilli

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My homebred mare, the Fleetwater Opposition one, who I backed myself without a problem, keeps putting her back 'out' - probably because she bucks vertical in the field at times.
McTimoney Chiro did her last week, 3 weeks before that, and is due in 2 weeks. He's found quite a lot to put right every time - e.g. last time she couldn't/wouldn't canter on the right lead, even on the lunge, but when he'd treated her she was happy to do so again.
Saddler (v good one) checked her saddle a week ago - and it's a Barrie Swaine one (serge lined, wide flat panels, soft flocked white wool, should be v comfy!) i've used on lots of other horses without problems and really trust it. it's on top of a prolite numnah with a felt pad (dr trainer's fave.) wide comfy girth.
She's living out, and has been 'in work' for quite a while but tbh i only do 15-30 mins a day with her, mostly walking if we hack out (happily goes out alone), just a bit of trotting around and the odd canter (if she pops into it, i don't chase her at all) in the school.
All i'm asking for is a nice light contact and for her to go forward in balance (she's v well balanced anyway, looks v mature for her age, not at all gangly), not asking for an outline at all.
the problem is: when i take her tack into the stable, she snaps her ears back. sometimes she tries to kick when i do up the girth. i hate this, i want a happy relaxed horse...i know she's trying to tell me something.
under saddle, she's mostly fine, but the odd little bunny-hop buck (v small) of resentment when i put my leg on. brings head up and back and snaps ears back again at the same time.
looks like an unhappy horse to me...

suggestions please?! do i just chuck her away for a month and see if she improves after a little rest? (she's had 3 days off after Chiro was here and was no different), or get the McTimoney Chiro out again pronto? Teeth were done a few months ago, and wolf teeth were taken out. getting to wit's end here...

Choc chip cookies and Budweiser if you got this far!
 
Could she have ulcers? So many people who's horses have them say they exhibit similar behaviour - the snappy behaviour and general unhappiness.

Or could it be that regardless of the putting back out issues - she needs some time out??

Or could it be the dreaded kissing spine? Everyones favourite problem
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umm, she's never been on a cereal diet, she gets grass, a bit of hay, happyhoof and a bit of balancer and sugar beet.
can they get ulcers if they've never been on a cereal diet? and if they've never done any significant work (and had accompanying stress etc)?
i had 1 with kissing spines years ago and his buck was unbelievable, hers is when loose or on lunge but fortunately never under saddle (yet)...
she used to be perfectly happy to have saddle put on, this is a relatively new thing btw.
hmm, 2 more things to worry about now, thanks!
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will have a chat with vet...
 
I don't know enough about GU's so wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to whether she'd be a candidate.

It does sound like a bit of vet 'discussion' if nothing else.

Good luck, I hope you get to the bottom of it. It's awful seeing our horses unhappy....

Ooo, just had a thought. Have you changed the saddle to a different make?
 
you say that she is four years old, but what time of the year was she born. My friend has at grass livery at the moment, according to her owner a two year old, who the owner reckons she is going to break in January 2010, as she will be 3, in actual fact she will be only approx 2 and a bit, as your horse is home bred you obviously know exactly when she (he) was born......but it sounds to me, as if, you have a very immature person, who would like to be a baby again for a while.....at the stud that I work at, (as secretary) time and time again we see "baby people" expected to act like grown-ups.....thoroughbreds are born mostly in or around the 1st of January and then fed to grow speedily, this makes them able to race at two, (if flat bred) but does not alter the fact that they are still babies.PS....born on 1st of January can mean up to March, but if born before, say on 30th December, they are one on 1st Jan....see what I mean.
 
Would it be worth getting a Bowen therapist to see her? I'm very sceptical, but this is what woody's pro rider has asked me to have done for him- ( he used to be the main rider for both Pip Funnell and then WFP ) apparently he has had phenomanal results with his horses using Bowen, this Bowen lady has diagnosed and cured things in horses for vets, when body scans etc have thrown no light and the vets have been completly confused as to what is wrong with the horse. Will let you know if Woody improves at all, but this Bowen lady reckons that she can sort him out once and for all and make him a normal horse! She said that he was in a severe amount of pain everywhere ( and this is the horse that countless vets and physios /osteos etc have said is absolutely 100% fine)

May also be worth trying different saddles as well, just to see if there is any difference?
 
nope, same saddle as before. same everything as before, actually.
she was a June foal, so i know she's only just 4 and a bit... but this is why i have done so little with her. i backed her very lightly late last year, and that's all she did as a 3 yr old, and then i started again with her this spring, very slowly. she's never been to a competition, never been pushed at all. she feels very confident in herself, she's the first one in the field to come over every time (not just for food either), happily marches out on little hacks (v quiet roads around here).
when i compare this to what some 4 yr olds do...! also, she's only about 15.3 and very compact, quite solidly built really.
hmm, maybe time off is the answer.
thankyou for replies!
 
Yes, she could absolutely have gastric discomfort even though you have never had her on a cereal diet. I would deffo pop her on a supplement (there are many around, as you will be aware, and I won't suggest any as people will think I am advertising) and see if her demeanor when being saddled changes. Out of interest does she get grumpy being rugged?
 
Can she be a bit of a stroppy mare at other times?
Our Fleetwater descendant (also 4) is a stroppy moo with a few things but particularly when being tacked up. It's been passed down in the genes as her mother was just the same!
 
nope, not at all grumpy about being rugged, or about anything else at all. had Equilibrium pad on today and was happy as larry in it.
have tried different saddles already, had both checked on her by Master Saddler...

okay, Bowen therapy sounds like a great idea (Katy can have a session too!) and i'll track down a supplement.
if those don't make a difference, she can have a holiday.

Thanks, all.
 
JH, the saddler i use is Mark Fisher, who is really very very good, very patient, very exacting. the 2 saddles i'm using weren't made for her but he has said that both are a good fit, and until recently, she was very happy in them...
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i'm riding the other, much more difficult 4 yr old in 1 of them, and if it wasn't 100%, she wouldn't put up with it for a second...
 
you could try tacking her up tied on the yard. or somewhere other than her stable. you could try putting her on bute for a few days and see if any change? then you would see if it was a pain thing somewhere! if all those fail i would chuck her out and ignore her til she is desperate for some human company!
 
Try in another saddle - have you a treeless you could borrow?
Inspect the saddle closely underneath to see if there are any nails/sharp edges anywhere - this isn't the same as fit, which may be OK.

The fact that she puts her ears back when the tack appears is rather a bit hint.
 
[ QUOTE ]
umm, she's never been on a cereal diet, she gets grass, a bit of hay, happyhoof and a bit of balancer and sugar beet.
can they get ulcers if they've never been on a cereal diet? and if they've never done any significant work (and had accompanying stress etc)?
i had 1 with kissing spines years ago and his buck was unbelievable, hers is when loose or on lunge but fortunately never under saddle (yet)...
she used to be perfectly happy to have saddle put on, this is a relatively new thing btw.
hmm, 2 more things to worry about now, thanks!
wink.gif
wink.gif

will have a chat with vet...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they can............ lots of youngsters develop them at weaning time- I read a really informative article about it a while ago, but can't find it to post a link
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Also, even on a grass/ fibre diet with low stress, some horses ulcers won't heal without medical help.

Hope you get to the bottom of it; It's even more upsetting with a homebred.
 
My TB mare also puts ehr back out by bucking vertically in the field. However you have covered that base by having your back lady out....

Again this mare is a poppet in the stable, but the only time she is funny to saddle is when she is right in season and she had a bad one just a couple of weeks ago. Could this be the case with yours...

Also we have another mare who is a cowbag (cowkicks for Ireland as an Olympic sport) when brushed on tummy, saddled or rugged and has always been this way no matter how recently her back has been done or what saddle she is ridden in. We have decided she just wishes to be the 'alpha' in our relationship...

Hope you find out what is up with her, but if she is still hacking out happily and you can't detect anything niggly under saddle I would hope that you don't have anything to worry about.

Fiona
 
have just ordered some U-Gard, will re-check saddles.

i wonder whether the fact that she's been on a 'diet' for a few months (limited hay, restricted grazing) because she's such a good doer, could have given her ulcers?
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Fiona, she never shows in season at all much, and has been fine all summer when she did show, she's not mareish at all.

orangehorse, i totally agree that the tack = ears back thing is a very big hint. i know she's telling me something...
still trying to get a Bowen person on the 'phone...!
thanks, everyone. much appreciated.
 
The description you have posted above could be our Opp mare! She is like it grooming and with rugs too though.

Hers is as a result of a severe mistrust of humans. She is constantly waiting to be wallopped. I have had her 2 year and never raised a hand to her, a quick ah ah is enough to send her to the back of the stable.

perhaps she has been inadvertently pinched when girthing up, they do bear a grudge and have memories like elephants.
 
Only thing I would add, is that, sometimes, you can have a saddle that technically fits a horse very well, but for some reason the horse simply does not like it.

Maybe she has change subtley in shape so that she can 'feel' a difference but it is not obvious to anyone. I think of it rather like trying an item of clothing on yourself that is the right size but just isnt 'you'.
 
[ QUOTE ]

i had 1 with kissing spines years ago and his buck was unbelievable, hers is when loose or on lunge but fortunately never under saddle (yet)...
she used to be perfectly happy to have saddle put on, this is a relatively new thing btw.
hmm, 2 more things to worry about now, thanks!
wink.gif
wink.gif

will have a chat with vet...

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My KS mare never bucked under saddle.

Have you considered a bute trial? If a few days of bute stops the behaviour, then it's pain related, and it might help the vet decide what to look for?

Good luck!
 
fair enough, thanks everyone.
Thistle, this one is sweet as anything to groom, doesn't even have any ticklish bits. no response to stroking armpit/girth area, very odd.
hmm, i think it's the saddles then. one of them i've only just started to ride her in (dr saddle), she was scowling at tack before i tried this one, and still is.
drats drats drats (or something.)
 
maybe its an associated dislike of the tack? in that i mean she put her back 'out' and then was ridden with it like this so was uncomfortable and now associates the tack with the pain?
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and obviously being a horse is too silly to realise that it was HER fault for messing about in the field rather than the tack's fault? sorry not much help but if she was mine i'd try bute for a couple of days and see what the difference was...
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This might be a stupid question - but is she in season at the moment? Sometimes they get very tetchy about being girthed when in season.
 
It could just be a phase she is going through? With 4yr olds, they quite often have stages of feeling a bit sore and/or tired of work, even though they exhibit no other signs? I would try another saddle... but also the restricted diet may have just made her a bit grumpier to be girthed up etc? I would leave her out for a couple of weeks, on a "Normal" horse diet and go from there...
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My mare isn't mare-ish at all either (normally) and I wouldn't usually know is she was in season or not, but someone did tell me once upon a time that the 'last' season before the end of the year was a real humdinger (in terms of hormones/follicles etc - sorry not a breeding person so don't know the terminology). It wouldn't surprise me if she was just feeling a bit sore in her girlie bits and will be as right as rain next week.

Fiona
 
That would make sense actually Fiona, L has been a bit "quiet" under saddle and lazy this last week, which really isn't like her. She's just had an easy week, but she is very in season so would make alot of sense
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My husband has seen a Bowen therapy chap twice, and has gone from post op headaches for 2 years (and millions ibuprofen), very lame on a dodgy hip and a total insomniac, to sleeping like a baby, instant stopping of headaches and pills, and is 90% sound again. Steve was a bit sceptical but willing to give anything a go. We are both amazed by what this chap has done as it seems such a gentle therapy.
Hope it works with the horse!
 
Very interesting Fiona, my mare had an off day jumping on saturday that put me into despair as it felt that all my hard work and the progress we've made over the last three months had gone and we were back to square one which believe me was not a happy place to be. However jumped superbly the next day, so could it be it was her last season of the year.

K, I've got anything helpful to add to what the others have said really, I agree with those who say turn her away for a couple of weeks so she can just "be a horse" and see how things go from there.
 
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