Sunken Flanks Help! at a loss now

[jcbjack]

Hi All, I am a Newbie in need of some advice re my boy.

My Gelding Jack is a 16.3hh, 9 year old... Breeding made up of Irish Cob Cross shire with a bit of TB thrown in too. I bought him as an under nourished 4 year old and have spent the last five years, building him up to be a lovely strapping lad who enjoys everything we dabble in from XC, SJ, Fun Rides and Endurance Pleasure rides. Well, that was until last year. I moved him in the August from a DIY Rough and ready farm to my friends posh livery, which had less grazing but more facility. He was still in regular med - to heavy workload, then in the September he suddenly became sunken in at his flanks, more on the right side, where you could put your fist behind his rib cage. From that point he then started to loose weight quite rabidly. Vet was called and she did a worm count and put us on a building diet to help,..... his weight then maintained, but he still had the sunken flanks. We were told to continue in low work which we did... during all this, he looked very well in himself and was always willing to work. But by the January, I couldn't bare to look at his flank especially on the right side..... so I asked my vet to do bloods which came back clear apart from an ever so slight rise in the white blood cell count, which she said was looking likely to be the tail end of a viral infection, give him 2 weeks rest and slowly bring him back into work. I accepted this and did so.... again he looked well weight wise, but the flank didnt really improve.

Shortly after this at the end of February, I moved Jack back to the Rough old DIY Farm that we started at... the grazing is amazing here and instantly, his weight increased and the flanks were not an issue any more!! I was in seventh heaven, having fun doing all we wanted through the summer again.... I guess, i thought that either it was the virus, or just coming back to the good grass is what did the trick.

Back in fairly heavy work, we head off to a 16k ride 4 weeks ago, which turned out to be quite challenging... though Jack enjoyed and was vet checked before leaving the start and at the finish. He drank loads when we got back too.... the next day he lost two shoes so had 3 days off waiting for my farrier.... during this time - - - Sunken Flanks and weight loss!!!

I couldn't believe it!! so I added some rolled barley to his feed for 2 weeks to help the weight and watched to see what happened.... He was still extremely happy in himself, in work and eating etc... and the weight seems to be increasing with the barely... but flanks remain, with the right being more prominent.... so last wed, we boxed to my vet, who did a full MOT, Worm count and bloods, she mentioned she was concerned this was a mild form of tying up, but that the bloods would confirm this. So, we waited for the results which were back the next day and geuss what??? very slight increase in white blood cell, virus, 2 weeks off then bring back into work... I again accepted this while she was telling me... but now, a week on im not so sure!! Am I being fobbed off??? He is awesome in himself, his weight is fab, he just looks awful on the flanks.....

Does anyone have suggestions at all on what this could be???

could it be a feeding issue... throughout the summer he is out 24/7 and has a daily feed
1 large scoop of D&H build up cubes and the same of Alpha original chaff, with Soya Oil and herbs - I decrease it slightly when he is out of work.... and have now added the rolled barley and pro biotic to help.

In winter, I make a larger of the above and split it to morning and evening feeds and add sugar beet..... he also has on tap access to hay at night. (hayliage goes through him)
Their winter turn out is pretty good too.

Im at a loss, pleas help

Please help.

thanks

Rhi (JCBJACK) ​

 

[jcbjack]

mid summer

last week

I could cry :-(

 

[jcbjack]

Any ideas please?

 

[be positive]

A few ideas has he been seen by a physio, they are often better at looking at the whole horse regarding any muscular changes, he could be sore somewhere and it shows by him tucking up.
Does he always drink well, do you give him salt or electrolytes when in hard work.
The raised white blood cells mean he is dealing with something, not always a virus as such but something is going on.
I would put him on a good quality supplement to aid his recovery from the virus or whatever it is, I have just put my pony onto NAF Energy and have seen great improvement in 2 weeks.
If he was mine I would also try and bring him in for a while every day to give him some hay, the grass is very rich and wet this year he may not be drinking enough and possibly not getting enough fibre from grass alone. Dividing his feed into 2 smaller ones would also help.
Otherwise I would look to getting a second opinion and further tests run.

 

[Shay]

I'd be wondering about a second opinion. Viruses do sometimes take a long time to throw off - but this is quite a marked change.

The other thing - if you haven't already - is to have him checked for Cushings or EMS. I only suggest this as my Chushingoid lad looses weight in this pattern too.

Linseed jelly is good for weight gain - but I think you need to know why it has happened rather than just feed to disguise it.

 

[jcbjack]

Wow, thank u both! A physio is a good idea.... I have to do The recommened two weeks now, but I will look into this..... a friend at my yard did point out yesterday, that even tho we been doing lots and jack is fit, we not been doing a lot of school, bum building work (no school) so she did suggest that it could just be the need to build from behind. re supplement.... would u do this even if he is full of energy? I will be looking for a second opinion, either with the senior vets there or look to another..... I am insured so I want to get to bottom of it. shay, would cushions have shown in blood in anyway, and r there any other symptoms? I had an old mare with it years ago and she had a big wooly coat and lami....

thanks guys

 

[paulineh]

Even though you are doing the two weeks there is no reason why you should not get a physio.

The darker marks on the second pictures are these sweat marks ??. These could mean some pain in that area.

You mentioned ? Tying up. Was this ever confirmed. What work were you doing just before the change in his flanks.

 

[meandmyself]

Is he drinking enough? How does his skin test? (pinch a bit- it should spring back flat. If it stays up, he's dehydrated.)

 

[Maesfen]

While you can't discount the bloods results I'd be inclined (as an ex hunter/pointer groom) to think you're not putting enough in the tank to replace what he loses from work. In simple words, you're not feeding enough of the right stuff for the amount of work he's doing which is easily remedied. He's not getting a lot for a horse of his size and build in the work he's doing.

Something that might help to add to what you feed is soaked grass nuts, they seem to help put 'a back' on most animals. You could also add micronised linseed at a cup a day and brewers yeast which is a great pick me up that aids digestion (base of things like Pink Powder without the price tag!) has B12 and is a great booster for skin and hoof condition too.

 

[jcbjack]

Hey thank you for your responses this is brilliant

Tying up wasnt confirmed as this blood result came back clear re the muscles breaking down also it was confirmed that he isnt dehydrated and i do do the skin test on a daily basis.... He has access to a salt lick and i add salt to his food when in hard work.

In those pics, that is actually poo stains lol! not sweat, excuse my dirty horsey..... My first thought was pain, but my vet lunged him, hard and soft ground, did a rectal examination to check the gut movement and gasses etc.... she also went over his back while he was in the stocks... she even tested his feet, in all fairness, that I cant fault her for.

the feeding is something that is on the forefront of my mind actually, and I think I need to do some research on feeding him and ensuring he has the right amount and of the right food. I have bought some ready Grass and I did read somewhere that Alpha is not always good for horses.... what do you think about changing his Alpha Chaff for the ready grass on a daily basis?

A friend of mine has just sent me the link for a linseed feed/supplement to gonna buy that.

thanks for this, its a real help

 

[jcbjack]

Sorry

In answer to your question, the work prior to the change in his flanks.... we were hacking daily 1-2 hours, then the last ride we did was a 16k endurance pleasure ride over a mountainous track.... it was particularly challenging, but he drank on his return and was vet examined once cooled, at the event.

the change in his flanks came about 4-5 days after this.... also bare in mind, this happened at the exact same time of year, last year.

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

i would add some fast fibre am and pm. sounds like he needs bulk/fibre/roughage to bulk him out

 

[jcbjack]

in what form would you feed more roughage? just Hay? .... I have just ordered micronized linseed

 

[Maesfen]

I have to admit, I am not an alfa fan so probably the worst person to ask but if you want a chaff that is 100% dried grass, nothing added to it I don't think you can beat Northern Crop Driers Graze On; it's so clean and smells so nice you almost want to try it yourself! The same firm do soaked grass pellets too, again called Graze On which I and my horses far prefer to the alfa pellets.

Just check the prices of that supplement as against getting a bag from Charnwood (they also do brewers yeast too) http://www.charnwoodmilling.co.uk/mail-order/Horse_Food.html

Sorry

In answer to your question, the work prior to the change in his flanks.... we were hacking daily 1-2 hours, then the last ride we did was a 16k endurance pleasure ride over a mountainous track.... it was particularly challenging, but he drank on his return and was vet examined once cooled, at the event.

the change in his flanks came about 4-5 days after this.... also bare in mind, this happened at the exact same time of year, last year.

You will very often find that horses a few days after strenuous exercise will 'tuck themselves up' but will recover if given a few easy days with the right type and amount of grub and being able to relax out grazing.
With a horse the size of yours I would almost be inclined to give ad lib hay/haylage especially if stabled and even put some out with his grazing to see if he takes it; he might say he prefers just grazing but the hay might just be the boost his system needs.
Ideally, no matter what job they have, their stomachs should always be lined, they should never be really hungry as that is when they don't digest properly, it just goes straight through them.

 

[jcbjack]

Its charwoodsmill that my friend sent me the link too.

Right I am putting together a plan of attack over the next week or so.....

I am going to replace the Alpha Chaff with the Ready Grass that I have already bought.....

I have ordered from Charwoods the Linseed. the vet gave me a pro biotic so I wont order the brewers yeast just yet.

I will bring Jack in, in the mornings and leave him with a morning feed and a haynet and turn him back out at night after an evening feed.

should I continue with the rolled barley?


Thanks

 

[Maesfen]

I would just to kick start the improvement; see how you get on until you've nearly finished the bag and take it from there.

 

[CBFan]

I think you'll find fibre is your friend....

My horse struggles to look good on grass alone - he is 17.2 and growing, so I now keep him in 12 hours a day, whatever the time of year to give him access to hay and he maintains a good shape. He too will go tucked up at the flanks otherwise... only trouble is, he is also prone to lami so free access to grass is a no-no!

Big horses have big bellies to keep full and sometimes there just isn't enough grass or it isn't fibrous enough to fill them.

I wouldn't bother with cereals and fancy feeds. as you have been advised before, it is fibre he needs. That said, the linseed will do a lot of good - for his digestive tract, his joints, coat and hooves. Best thing since sliced bread

 

[Zuzzie]

Sounds to me like a feed issue. I have a 17hh warmblood gelding who will literally drop weight overnight and have flanks just as you describe, especially if he gets cold when the temperature drops at night. He is a real fusspot so if he doesn't like the hay he would rather starve so keeping weight on him is a real problem. Currently we are feeding hay which he loves - he can't get enough of it - and he looks really well. But I know that if he does any extra work then I would need to increase his hay to compensate. He is a Cushings horse but you would never know it as he is on Prascend. He looks great.
If its Cushings then you would have to get the vet to take blood for specific testing which costs quite a bit. If Cushings is confirmed, then you need to be sure not to give him anything in his feed which could trigger laminitis as it is well known that Cushings horses are predisposed to Lami. Things that are sugary (carrots, sugarbeet, molassed short feed/chaff) need to be eliminated from his diet. Chat to your vet - if you're insured you have nothing to lose.