Supplements musing - do you / dont you?

Carojo2010 said:
I IMHO think too many supplements on the horse market - all designed to guilt buy them and make us think if I dont buy this Im failing my horse - herbs been about since time began and responsible horse ownership, a good diet and proper feeding not only proves these do all in a scoop supplements as a fake but also pressure buy the products - our grandfathers didnt have all these and had great looking horses - healthy and in great condition..
Maybe we rely too much on products now and forget true horse care? xxx
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Its probably why our grandfathers horses didn't live as long...
 
Good reading thanks for posting your replies; interesting [for me] that herbs are featuring quite a bit.

I think choosing/finding the right a supplement is a bit of a minefield; so many companies with endorsements. Would the 'endorsed' actively go and purchase said product? I wonder what % of supplements contain bulking agents and how that relates ratio wise to the active ingrediant/herb?

I know the linseed is good stuff as I put some in my breakfast shake. Might add some of the others too lol!

I guess it comes down to 'horses for courses' in the end!

Hbii
 
I agree with Carojo2010 - the supplement market has gone mad and many of them are a total waste of money.

Tallyho! - I think the reason horses are now living longer is more down to the advances in vetinary science than to the supplements we feed, though agree some do have a place in certain cases.
 
Sidney said:
I agree with Carojo2010 - the supplement market has gone mad and many of them are a total waste of money.

Tallyho! - I think the reason horses are now living longer is more down to the advances in vetinary science than to the supplements we feed, though agree some do have a place in certain cases.
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Some of those advances include nutrition too - it is after all a legitimate science. Don't forget that.

Yes there are a myriad of things out there to be wary of. Which is why we have brains to help us find only what we need.

Just because someone's selling it, doesn't mean you have to buy it ;)
 
I think it is easy to rely on the products around us and to forget about good, solid, sensible horse care, such as working out what is lacking from forage and hard feed and like someone said, using the horse itself as a health barometer. I had a really good look in the feed merchants the other day at all the supplements and found it quite astonishing at the range of stuff available and the lack of info on a lot of it. It's quite scary that we can just go and buy whatever. Do we need more regulation in the sale of supplements, perhaps?
 
Stripy said:
I think it is easy to rely on the products around us and to forget about good, solid, sensible horse care, such as working out what is lacking from forage and hard feed and like someone said, using the horse itself as a health barometer. I had a really good look in the feed merchants the other day at all the supplements and found it quite astonishing at the range of stuff available and the lack of info on a lot of it. It's quite scary that we can just go and buy whatever. Do we need more regulation in the sale of supplements, perhaps?
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Regulation? I don't know really, how do you propose to regulate something that you don't know is needed?

How do you know what one horse needs over another?

It's already self-regulating. People buy something they need based on research hopefully and stop using it if they dont see results. It's not scary at all, you just need to self-educate and not worry about what other people are doing :).
 
tallyho! said:
Regulation? I don't know really, how do you propose to regulate something that you don't know is needed?

How do you know what one horse needs over another?

It's already self-regulating. People buy something they need based on research hopefully and stop using it if they dont see results. It's not scary at all, you just need to self-educate and not worry about what other people are doing :).
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Mm, fair point, tallyho. Perhaps just more info to be required on the packaging, such as how much would be needed to make a difference for each 100 kg of weight, for example, and any possible contraindications, like are required for medicines. I know you can contact the manufacturers for info, though.
 
I do.

Magnsium oxide & Equimins Diamond Omega as a general purpose supplement - I've fed a few different general purpose supplements, but he looks the best he ever has on this so I'm sticking with it :)
 
Fintan said:
@ 2 Stroke

I agree. This was meant in such a way that somethings are given unproofen to horses because there is a nice story around.

Earlier it was with humans: Eat your spinach there is plenty of iron in and you will get strong as popey.

So everybody had to eat spinach untill to the time they did analyse it again and did figure out it was a mistake.

By the way, you will have more chromium from mollasses than from the yeast.

The self synthesis of vitamin B in a horse is true, but there is a little trap in performance horses.
The synthesis is dependend on a sufficient supply of fiber and a healthy intestinal flora.

With some performance horses you will have the problem of hindgut acidosis caused by overfeeding concentrates and with this a very reduced synthesis.
But at the same time you will have a far bigger demand of B vitamins than in a "healthy" and less performing horse.

The same rule is value for horses with other gut problems.

But for to top up B vitamins we should also know how much a horse will need.
As well what is the supply from yeast.

So a 650 KG Horse in light work will need about 32 mg Vitamin B 1, 52 mg B2 and 16 mg B6.

The yeast will supply in the average with one gram 0.13 mg Vitamin B1, 0,04 mg Vitamin B2, 0.4 mg Vitamin B 6.

So if we put this in relation to the requirement we can make up our mind how valuable the Idea is to top up with yeast.

It is a nice idea, but the reality is cruel.
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At last someone with some common sense.

I only supply a mineral block in the paddock that my horse has 24hr access - there is also one in the stable. When she is fed her feed is around 75% meadow chaff - her concentrates are oats.

In as short a time as 27years or so very few horses got any more supplementation than some limestone flour and some salt yet they all bloomed with health.

People have become paranoid about supplementing their horses with this and that as they are brainwashed by the advertising hype in horsey magazines.

If you want to keep your horse healthy - stop feeding processed feeds - increase fibre, work your horse more and feed it less. A horse in light work which the majority of horses are does NOT need supplementary feeding - grass and hay will give it far safer energy than all the processed feeds.

If you want to thank your horse for his co-operation in the days adventures then give him/her an apple/carrot or some mints and a big hug. My mare loves nothing more than resting her muzzle on my shoulder and a big cuddle from me. A mint as I turn her out makes her feel appreciated.
 
Considering brewers yeast is a highly variable product and is not traditionally fed for it's B-vitamin content (don't know anyone who feeds it as a vitamin supplement tbh, even in the barefoot community) apart from the OP.

Having just googled it, gosh there is a huge misconception about it's nutrient content. However, it's pretty potent in iron, protein and l-Lysine. Didn't know that.

It's nice to think that ALL horses can survive on just grass and a mineral lick. There is an epidemic occuring - metabolic problems. So, management has to be adjusted thus. I honestly don't think brewers yeast, magnesium, and all these other popular supplements are the cause though.

The sad fact is, as Tnavas points out, is that just like humans, there is a serious lack of understanding somewhere between calories in vs calories out which is playing havoc with the effects of INSULIN in both horses and humans.

Supplementation of minerals and/or vitamins, doesn't really have much of an effect on insulin apart from maybe Mg in human clinical trials, however it is starch and sugars which affect health the most... and what do most BIG BAG horse feeds contain???
 
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tallyho! said:
It's nice to think that ALL horses can survive on just grass and a mineral lick. There is an epidemic occuring - metabolic problems. So, management has to be adjusted thus.
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STOP FEEDING PROCESSED FEEDS AND MAYBE WE CAN HALT THESE PROBLEMS - they did not exist prior to all the processed foods - SOY is the worst of the lot yet people still seem hell bent on feeding it for its protein.

Listen to the old timers! They fed their horses very successfully on basic grains, hay and sugarbeet. The horses all grazed out - and contrary to what people think the majority of horse grazing is not madly fertilised or old dairy pasture - look at the history of the property where you graze.

Start working horses more, feeding less or not at all. Stop being brainwashed into buying processed feeds.
 
I feed a few:
Seaweed
Garlic
Top Spec calmer (just trying this to see if it works better than Magnitude - the Magnitude definitely helps but I'd like all the help I can get :p)
Linseed (just changing from oil to micronised)
Plus a himalayan salt lick.

He's on Dengie Healthy Hooves which contains biotin, so that needs to go on the list as well, although he's not getting fed that at the required rate for his weight.
 
Tnavas said:
STOP FEEDING PROCESSED FEEDS AND MAYBE WE CAN HALT THESE PROBLEMS - they did not exist prior to all the processed foods - SOY is the worst of the lot yet people still seem hell bent on feeding it for its protein.

Listen to the old timers! They fed their horses very successfully on basic grains, hay and sugarbeet. The horses all grazed out - and contrary to what people think the majority of horse grazing is not madly fertilised or old dairy pasture - look at the history of the property where you graze.

Start working horses more, feeding less or not at all. Stop being brainwashed into buying processed feeds.
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Grazing - Maybe not where you live Tnavas, but here in England, it's very different. Even if it's not fertilised, it's unsuitable leys.

You cannot generalise.

Agree on the processed bags of feed though.
 
I completely agree re processed feeds but not about minerals or that grass is sufficient. Grass is lethal (laminitic) to one of my horses and another does very badly on it (pancake, splatty hooves). My lot get very limited grazing due to problems observed with it reflected in their hooves mainly. Since I have been feeding a decent forage balancer thrush is less of a problem, coats have changed colour, hoof quality improved and they all look so well and content.

Not all grass is created equal, where I lived in UK it was much better than where I am now. Not all horses responses are equal either. The best way is to have your forage analysed and feed minerals accordingly but it isn't possible for many of us with small variable hay supplies.
I don't class mineral supplementation as supplementing... to me it is part of trying to provide a balanced diet. Feeding more energy if and when required is supplementing to me. :o

ps. The balancer I feed is iron free.
 
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tallyho! said:
Grazing - Maybe not where you live Tnavas, but here in England, it's very different. Even if it's not fertilised, it's unsuitable leys.

You cannot generalise.

Agree on the processed bags of feed though.
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Please remember that I am from the UK and have kept horses in the UK for longer than I have in NZ.

How many farmers will have ploughed up permanent pasture to replace with unsuitable horse grasses - very few! They may have added to the sward but you still have much the same pasture as you had fifty years ago.

What has changed is peoples attitude towards feeding and exercise - just about everyone hard feeds their horse these days and fails to exercise their horses sufficiently and THAT is where the problems lie - it's not the grasses fault. More people have horses than they used to and many of these people have work hours that don't give them enough time to adequately work their horses or they have too busy a lifestyle to give the horse the time in needs in work.

If you want a semi pasture ornament that pootles around the countryside a couple of times a week then just let it eat grass or hay.

As I said you need to research the history of the property you keep your horse on. We never fertilised the paddocks but they were limed every few years.
 
How am I supposed to remember you lived here? I know nothing about you apart from you live in NZ :D

Actually, ploughing up fields to reseed is a very common occurence in Lincolnshire where I grew up and down here in the south west. In fact, two fields got reseeded only last year. With ryegrass.

Obviously I don't speak for everyone, but for our horses, yes they do graze on richer pasture than they should. You can pick and choose your yard obviously, you don't HAVE to keep your horse on a farm, but for many, this is the only option for reasons such as cost, distance, availability etc.

I find it slightly patronising that you consider all problematic horses as "pasture ornaments" though. Mine was a very fit horse in fact but had EMS so still got laminitis. He hardly had any feed, he was muzzled, and carefully monitored. Because he had raised baseline insulin, he would get attacks if he was mismanaged in any way. He needed a source of high Mg, Cu and Chromium to help stabilise his blood sugar levels.

No, there is little clinical foundation for what I supplemented for him, but it worked and I did my own research. He was lami-free for two years once I changed his minerals.

So, in some cases, just grass and a general mineral lick isn't "all you need"... it's all you don't need :)
 
tallyho! said:
How am I supposed to remember you lived here? I know nothing about you apart from you live in NZ :D

Actually, ploughing up fields to reseed is a very common occurence in Lincolnshire where I grew up and down here in the south west. In fact, two fields got reseeded only last year. With ryegrass.

Obviously I don't speak for everyone, but for our horses, yes they do graze on richer pasture than they should. You can pick and choose your yard obviously, you don't HAVE to keep your horse on a farm, but for many, this is the only option for reasons such as cost, distance, availability etc.

I find it slightly patronising that you consider all problematic horses as "pasture ornaments" though. Mine was a very fit horse in fact but had EMS so still got laminitis. He hardly had any feed, he was muzzled, and carefully monitored. Because he had raised baseline insulin, he would get attacks if he was mismanaged in any way. He needed a source of high Mg, Cu and Chromium to help stabilise his blood sugar levels.

No, there is little clinical foundation for what I supplemented for him, but it worked and I did my own research. He was lami-free for two years once I changed his minerals.

So, in some cases, just grass and a general mineral lick isn't "all you need"... it's all you don't need :)
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Sorry - I wasn't personally attacking you.

Reseeding with Rye grass - that is what was most likely there in the first place as it is a prolific producer, tough and withstands most extremes of weather - even drought

I wasn't reffering to problem horses as pasture ornaments - I was making a general statement about the lives that many equines live now that their owners work during the week and give them exercise only at the weekends with a possible ride in the week and that the amount of time the horse actually spends working is far less than the quantity of hard feed that goes into them.

Out of interest. How old is your horse? How old was he when you got him? Do you know what he was fed before you got him? Did you ever consider that the processed feed he was probably given is the cause of his EMS? Its great that you are able to manage your horses condition successfully.

In general horses need to be allowed to eat a more natural diet that is one high in fibre and low in concentrates. Check the ingredients before buying processed feeds - if it has SOY in any form, Wheat bi products, Lupins or Peanut hulls in it - don't buy it.
 
Tnavas said:
Sorry - I wasn't personally attacking you.

Reseeding with Rye grass - that is what was most likely there in the first place as it is a prolific producer, tough and withstands most extremes of weather - even drought

I wasn't reffering to problem horses as pasture ornaments - I was making a general statement about the lives that many equines live now that their owners work during the week and give them exercise only at the weekends with a possible ride in the week and that the amount of time the horse actually spends working is far less than the quantity of hard feed that goes into them.

Out of interest. How old is your horse? How old was he when you got him? Do you know what he was fed before you got him? Did you ever consider that the processed feed he was probably given is the cause of his EMS? Its great that you are able to manage your horses condition successfully.

In general horses need to be allowed to eat a more natural diet that is one high in fibre and low in concentrates. Check the ingredients before buying processed feeds - if it has SOY in any form, Wheat bi products, Lupins or Peanut hulls in it - don't buy it.
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It's not just the ryegrass, it's the clover which is a nightmare. I'm liveried on an ex-dairy farm which still farms sheep and the grazing is way too rich; also the hay and haylage is really high in sugar and iron. I have abandoned most bagged feed and try to get minerals in balance as much as possible; my horse is also exercised (at least on walker) every day and ridden minimum 6 days a week even though I work full time and still it's a struggle to keep them in balance and at an acceptable body score - it's a juggle of hay soaking/feed tweaking and lots and lots of work. So I'm sorry I totally agree with Tallyho. Going 'back to basics' of just 'Dr Green' and hay is simply not an option.
 
Tnavas said:
Out of interest. How old is your horse? How old was he when you got him? Do you know what he was fed before you got him? Did you ever consider that the processed feed he was probably given is the cause of his EMS? Its great that you are able to manage your horses condition successfully.
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He came from a hunting home to me at 8 having had a very bad lami attack at 6yo when he was rested at grass one summer. So I know he wasn't fed lots when he had lami, but I don't know what he was fed while he was working in the season. Probably the old fashioned coarse mix and chaff like any other horse.

I agree about soya, I avoid it like the plague and if I feed anything, I feed straights so I know exactly what goes in to my horses.

At 9, vet diagnosed navicular, so I know his problems were probably diet coupled with poor farriery. I'm glad I met my boy. He has taught me so much about feet and food. He is 13 now.

Many wouldn't have touched him with a bargepole but he is very special. To me anyway. It's because of his feet that much of my views on horse care did a 180, joined the BFT and haven't looked back yet :)
 
tallyho! said:
He came from a hunting home to me at 8 having had a very bad lami attack at 6yo when he was rested at grass one summer. So I know he wasn't fed lots when he had lami, but I don't know what he was fed while he was working in the season. Probably the old fashioned coarse mix and chaff like any other horse.

I agree about soya, I avoid it like the plague and if I feed anything, I feed straights so I know exactly what goes in to my horses.

At 9, vet diagnosed navicular, so I know his problems were probably diet coupled with poor farriery. I'm glad I met my boy. He has taught me so much about feet and food. He is 13 now.

Many wouldn't have touched him with a bargepole but he is very special. To me anyway. It's because of his feet that much of my views on horse care did a 180, joined the BFT and haven't looked back yet :)
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What a lucky boy he found you - a lovely history.
 
Tnavas, the problems did exist, probably worse then they do now (improved due to knowledge & understanding)
Its just that people ignored, treated the consequences (if possible) or put out down to naughtiness, as some still do :(
 
Carojo2010 said:
I IMHO think too many supplements on the horse market - all designed to guilt buy them and make us think if I dont buy this Im failing my horse - herbs been about since time began and responsible horse ownership, a good diet and proper feeding not only proves these do all in a scoop supplements as a fake but also pressure buy the products - our grandfathers didnt have all these and had great looking horses - healthy and in great condition..
Maybe we rely too much on products now and forget true horse care? xxx
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Well I never give my horses dried herbs bacause I cant be sure they have not been grown in china where there's a huge issues with such things being grown on badly contaminated land.
Our grandfathers did supplement as far as they could they put copper penny's in feed bowls ( I can remember seeing this ) they used limestone flour and fed seaweed and brewers yeast and a strange smelling malt extract and gave Guinness gave horses eggs .
If wealthy they bought hay from different parts of the country to try to give a bigger range of trace elements .
They supplemented loads and loads of things it's just things have moved on for horses and humans since then.
 
Milkmaid said:
Tnavas, the problems did exist, probably worse then they do now (improved due to knowledge & understanding)
Its just that people ignored, treated the consequences (if possible) or put out down to naughtiness, as some still do :(
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No they didn't - laminitis was a small fat native pony problem never horses. I worked in the equestrian industry since early 70's and in some of those places I was responsible for 100 or more horses and ponies and I can assure these problems did not exist.

In 45 years of working with horses the only one I've ever had a problem with have been those that were fed processed feeds. All my riding School ponies lived out on fertilised, irrigated ex dairy pasture 24/7 with a mineral block. They were only hard fed when they came into work and then were fed oats or barley and meadow chaff. I was there for 10 years and only had the vet once for a horse with Grass Tetany. When you have 32 horses and ponies that's pretty good going.
 
Just a question if I may...

I agree with the no soy, but find it really hard here in the UK to find a balancer that is not made of a soy base! Any suggestions? Thanks!
 
texas said:
Just a question if I may...

I agree with the no soy, but find it really hard here in the UK to find a balancer that is not made of a soy base! Any suggestions? Thanks!
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The forage plus balancers are now on a linseed base rather than soy. :)
 
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