Swinging back

[3bh]

This is not a comment I've ever seen on my test sheets before, "back needs to swing, needs swinging back, needs more swing etc", have asked a few people and googled, and still none the wiser!

Could anyone tell me what a judge looks for from the floor to find this "swinging back".

I've asked some people face to face and explanations ranged from a horse can't work on a contact without swinging a back, to looking for a lateral rolly movement to the trot work, to the horse should be moving its head from side to side to show acceptance of the contact (the latter I raised eyebrows at as goes against everything i understand!)

Ideally, if anyone could pinpoint some videos that show a horse "not swinging" and then "swinging" this might make things clearer.

Or explain to me in laymans terms?

FWIW, from on top the horse felt very relaxed, forward, reaching through from behind, all pictures show this. Poll not highest point but this is prelim test, poll is never the highest I don't know if it is how he is built (very downhill) but I just don't think he can do it. Looking at every single photo I have, from hacking to cavorting in the field to dressage to jumping the 2/3rd vertebra is always the highest. He is a very tall lanky stick like creature who doesn't carry huge amounts of weight or muscle.


Thanks anyone that might be able to help me understand this, like I say I've never come across this phrase before on my sheets, have heard the words thrown around but how do you look for this, how do you define that it is lacking in what you see in front of you?

Many thanks!

 

[Polotash]

I see this comment a lot.

My understanding is that the judges wants to see the horse engaged in the contact (DEF no head swinging!!!) so that you can keep hands still and the horse is steady in the mouth and head. This then allows him to step forward actively, with a nice over track and therefore active behind.

My guess would be if you got this comment at prelim that the judge wants to see him less "held" in front, a bit softer and a bit more forward. If he drops his head down a little (i.e. rounder) then this will allow him to bascule his back more and therefore engage the back end. This will give you swing.

You DEF should not be poll highest at prelim... i still get told "get him rounder" all the time at Medium!

 

[Nicnac]

I always think it's judges looking for 'schwung' from the German scales of training which actually means 'impulsion'. See http://verenalawrence.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/schwung-impulsion.html

There is a good exercise to get the horse swinging through here http://www.nancylaterdressagehorses.com/Strengthen.php and here's a video as per your request http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZXHOE3lB4A

I can't recommend enough going and writing for a judge and questioning what they mean by their comments. Enlightening experience

 

[kerilli]

Just behind the saddle the back should be soft, lifted, allowing all the power to push through from the hindlegs. the tail carried softly (slightly lifted, not clamped down) and swinging well is always good indicator I think.
the head absolutely should not be moving from side to side, ugh! (according to my trainer last time he was here, the horse nodding the head slightly as it begins to relax and give at the poll is fine though.)
must admit i do see horses with a hollow back but a curved neck and vertical head getting very good marks sometimes, which makes me boggle a bit.
there are pics in this week's h&h dr section which show a correct raised back (which would be swinging!) and also the dipped, hollow version, i think. maybe just a moment in time though.

 

[dianchi]

I would say that the judge was trying to say you are lacking impulsion, you can still be soft but not be "swinging through the back". Best indication is does your horses tail softly swing in rhythm with trot strides (easiest seen in trot) thats what judges look for. the shows that the back is relaxed and working through.

 

[3bh]

Very interesting and thoughtful replies, thank you all.

I don't feel that I ride with any sort of "hold" in front, if anything my instructor (list 1 judge) comments that I am often too light in the hand/rein. Horse carries himself, I could have been seen before this test warming up in textbook "outline" in canter one handed whilst texting away on my phone ;-) We also show him and he is expected to be - and is! - light in front and immediately offers a correct way of going to anyone who sits on him, however they ride.

Test was prelim, sadly our worst ever score by a good few % (59, normally score high 60's at P&N) and the comments not only repeat "need more swing over back" but also that poll needs to be higher (hence my comment), and needs to be more elastic in hind legs, and is leaning on forehand. I was really quite surprised in general as these are not comments I have ever had attributed to this horse!

Here is a picture (no button pushing, i requested right to post on forums!) and although it is only a moment in time, you get the gist!

 

[kerilli]

looks very nice and does not look downhill at all in that pic, back, tail, step all look good.
it is definitely btv in the pic though (i totally accept that it's a moment in time, however!) and maybe the judge meant that they wanted you to let the nose forward out/downwards a little more, let more swing through and forward. hard to explain.
you can text in canter? cripes.

 

[3bh]

looks very nice and does not look downhill at all in that pic, back, tail, step all look good.
it is definitely btv in the pic though (i totally accept that it's a moment in time, however!) and maybe the judge meant that they wanted you to let the nose forward out/downwards a little more, let more swing through and forward. hard to explain.
you can text in canter? cripes.

That makes tonnes of sense as one thing I have to keep myself focussed on in schooling is pushing the ears forwards and away from me, as this chap has a tendancy to drop a little behind the contact and its a very fine a balancing act as pushing too much rushes him and he likes to pretend he is a hackney,then we really are tense and not swinging!
To criticise myself what I needed to do in that particular "moment in time" pictured was to breathe in, sit up, lift hand, drop the leg and push him forward, not to collapse in a curled up ball on top of him, being a baby he is just reflecting what i am doing!
I can now understand it if the judge was seeing those moments and suggesting that the 'swing' needed carrying through more. Thanks for your explanation!

 

[kerilli]

no probs, i know, it is such a fine balancing act. i have one at the same sort of point... i want her to telescope her neck outwards downwards and show good swing, BUT she needs to take the slower step to have time to take a good step (not rush forwards onto the forehand and take quicker flatter steps), but sometimes the slower steps, although in good balance, aren't quite forward enough... it is really difficult to get it just right and then maintain it.

 

[TarrSteps]

You cannot tell anything relevant from a single photo but just for the point of discussion, one thing that is obvious in that instant is that the hind foot will not "track up" by the completion of the stride. While this is not a be all and end all, any more than poll position etc, it is a sign that the horse is not as free in the back and pushing as it might be. Also (since you've put it up for discussion ) your own position gives the impression you're "sitting on egg shells" a bit - this may not be the case at all but judges can only judge the moment and will look at all the available clues.

Just as a point of argument, the poll SHOULD be the highest point, it's actually in the rules, is it not? However, it is one thing on a checklist and so horses that are not poll high but doing many other things well will beat one that is more open in the throat but committing other sins. Ideally the horse is strong enough to carry itself in the longer frame, even at the lowest levels. Many horses are not, which is fine and understandable, but that doesn't make it technically correct.

Anyway, if one judge did not like your horse/way of going but all the others have then perhaps it was just a glitch? Time will tell but I wouldn't panic yet.

 

[TarrSteps]

Hmm, pretty much cross posted . . .

 

[3bh]

Thanks Tarrsteps, your 'dont panic' comment made me laugh as I am definitely one to panic and make end of world conclusions about the tiniest things!!

I am sadly too aware of my own positional faults, and this horse is very good at magnifying them in his response!! I do a lot of breaking/ride away/problem solving on a day to day basis and have to admit to being natually defensive on anything, even this chap who is green but saintly! That "moment in time" is very reflective of how i sit all of the time, sitting up/back and with an open frame doesnt come naturally! Whoever posted on here about closing back of armpits has helped me hugely, but in test situation i often worry (panic!) so much about how the horse looks and feels without remembering that i have to help out up there!

 

[kerilli]

Yes TS, I think we were getting at the same thing. The pic does show a good step (upwards/outwards, not scuttly) but it isn't big enough to track up, I agree. But sometimes when you ask for that bigger step you end up with the shorter scuttly one at first, argh...
3bh, have you tried going in and channelling your inner Carl/Charlotte, whoever you imagine when you think 'dressage rider', think of riding like a GP rider: hands up and forward, proudly showing off your amazing horse to the judge? I use the mantra "Head up, Display" to try to get myself into the 'sit up and show off my horse' thing for a test... not that I'm necessarily disciplined enough to manage it every time, mind you!

 

[TarrSteps]

My cranky old German trainer was always convinced everyone was against him (there was some validity to this view . . .) and used to say "Make them take it away!" just before I went into the ring. Bless the old b****r, I still try to say it as I think it's a good self-image enhancer - sit up, look proud, don't give them any reason to mark you down!

Then again, I probably ride the same way because I do the same sort of work!

 

[B-B]

Its not so much about where the head is but whats going on behind.

Suppleness is the main issue of the horse that needs more swing in its back.

Without suppleness it will not push more, track up/over, and carry (head position ).

So to help this you need to work on the suppleness - leg yeild and counter canter are good ones for this.

The head can go lower, even behind, while the horse develops the suppleness, balance and strength to carry itself in the correct way.

So maybe today a bit behind and marks lost but its all part of the bigger picture.

It takes time.

 

[TarrSteps]

The pics on Spiderman's thread, especially the one from behind, show an idea of the sort of "soft strength" we're getting at. You get the feeling if you saw the horse in motion, he's flow forward smoothly. Like all things, the illusion of ease takes a lot of hard work!!