Swinging

arwenplusone

arwenplusone

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No, sorry guys, not a post on extramarital interests but something entirely different....

Just wanted to know thoughts on having foals 'swung'?
This seems to me quite an archaic process and I wondered if it was still commonplace?

The stud I sent my mare to did it with my foalie (I wasn't sure but I do trust them and their experience) and I have to say she is excellent at being tied up/leading.
 
Never heard of it either... Was going to google it then realised what would come up!!!!!
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Im not sure if its commonplace now but I have done it, albeit gently and under supervision, with problem adult horses in the past. They have never been totally restricted though....I prefer to use a long line through a ring, and a hefty bloke with gloves on.
 
Never done it - don't see the need.

All the youngsters once they reach a certain age start to be tied up - none complain, and acccept it happily.

Can't imagine why anyone would want to do it.
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Guessing it's not commonplace since no-one has heard of it!
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it is basically a quite primitive (and a bit brutal
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) way of teaching a young horse/foal to tie up.

As I understand it (and I have never seen it happen) it involves tying them up to something very solid and letting them turn themselves inside out running about until they realise they can't get away. ie they give in.
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I was initially really against the stud doing it. Their argument was that it was for foalie's safety as she needed to be out of reach when the mare was re-covered. I had a long chat with them and they insisted they would do it gently and I do know they have years of experience. Was my decision to let them do it (I am mean, yes) and whilst I do not necessarily agree with the process it has done her no harm at all.

I'm not surprised it has died out and that is a good thing as there are better methods these days - I did wonder if the stud was a bit 'traditional' .
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I worked on a yard that did this to all foals.
They had 3 headcollars that were joined together and a lunge line, the foal had the headcollars on and the line was wrapped round a telegraph pole with the stud owner at the other end. He would pull the foal forwards the pole then let is struggle back to the end of the line. Not nice to witness and I wouldn't dream of doing it to any of mine. When you think what damage you could do to the spine etc.
That was 15 years ago tho.
 
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Im not sure if its commonplace now but I have done it, albeit gently and under supervision, with problem adult horses in the past. They have never been totally restricted though....I prefer to use a long line through a ring, and a hefty bloke with gloves on.

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We have a problem horse at work (rising three) and the owners have been talking about swinging him like this. He is a rearer and is getting dangerous. He came down on my head a couple of months ago-not nice. Still, Im not sure whether it will work or not I think he needed more handling when he was a baby and his time has possibly passed to come right
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As I understand it (and I have never seen it happen) it involves tying them up to something very solid and letting them turn themselves inside out running about until they realise they can't get away. ie they give in.
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I was initially really against the stud doing it. Their argument was that it was for foalie's safety as she needed to be out of reach when the mare was re-covered. I had a long chat with them and they insisted they would do it gently and I do know they have years of experience. Was my decision to let them do it (I am mean, yes) and whilst I do not necessarily agree with the process it has done her no harm at all.


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I'm appalled - that anyone would DO this to a young foal - and at the excuse they offer! The risk of doing serious damage to the soft bones of the skull in a young foal is very high indeed; the risk of it turning itself over backwards and doing serious damage to back, neck or legs is very high; and the stress it would cause to a young foal to be 'torn' from Mother and treated in this way is very likely to be sufficient to predispose to ulcers!!

It is very easy to handle a foal safely while covering. EITHER you have a small, safe yard attached to your covering yard where foal can stay and be close to Mum - while out of harm's way, OR you have someone to hold foal. I prefer the latter, but we also have the yard set-up for when we're short-handed.

If a stud couldn't offer a better solution for ensuring the safety of the foal during covering then I would be taking mare and foal home promptly and finding a stud that did things properly and safely!
 
As JanetGeorge points out it is quite possible to do SERIOUS damage to a foal (or adult horse) this way, even if one is "careful". I'd be especially worried about neck injuries, which might not even be noticeable immediately but cause long term damage. Think of all the growth plates that could be affected by this sort of stress!!

I'd lump it right up there with "flipping" - purposely setting a foal up to fall over backwards if it resists being led. If anything I suspect this might be even more common as I've met people who seem to consider it a "normal" part of teaching a foal to lead! Yikes.

But to the OP, what's done is done and obviously it worked out okay in this case, as it probably does many times. Doesn't make it a necessary risk, though, and I'm surprised the stud was so keen to take such a risk with someone else's horse.
 
GigglePig if the horse is that young I personally wouldnt do it. Id be much more inclined to go down the chiropracter and chifney route first. Rearing is a completely different kettle of fish to something that refuses to tie up and stand nicely and you could do a lot of damage at the back of the skull trying to stop him going up this way.

Wedging a rearer hard into the corner of a stable can help stop them going up as they cannot sit down on their bottoms to get that lift.

It may be better for you just to keep well out of this horses way given its already landed on you!
 

JanetGeorge: I agree that it is a barbaric thing to do if it is done in such severe way. (and I explained it in my post in a severe way as that is the old traditional method) but that was my decision after having spoken to the stud in question who talked to me about what they would do - my foalie is perfectly ok and is a well mannered little beastie who was not in the least traumatised.

I know the people well and I trusted them with my foalie - yes they are somewhat archaic but I have never heard of them damaging a foal, ever. and tbh would they take the risk?

That said, it is NOT something I would ever think of recommending because as you rightly say, there are many many better ways to keep foalie safe at covering and it is not difficult to teach foals to tie up.

I am interested in opinions though about swinging in general as I had never really heard about it and can find no real info on it. It seems to me that it is something that died out when people saw sense and is certainly (thank goodness) not one that is carried out at most studs!
 
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As I understand it (and I have never seen it happen) it involves tying them up to something very solid and letting them turn themselves inside out running about until they realise they can't get away. ie they give in.
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I was initially really against the stud doing it. Their argument was that it was for foalie's safety as she needed to be out of reach when the mare was re-covered. I had a long chat with them and they insisted they would do it gently and I do know they have years of experience. Was my decision to let them do it (I am mean, yes) and whilst I do not necessarily agree with the process it has done her no harm at all.


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I'm appalled - that anyone would DO this to a young foal - and at the excuse they offer! The risk of doing serious damage to the soft bones of the skull in a young foal is very high indeed; the risk of it turning itself over backwards and doing serious damage to back, neck or legs is very high; and the stress it would cause to a young foal to be 'torn' from Mother and treated in this way is very likely to be sufficient to predispose to ulcers!!

It is very easy to handle a foal safely while covering. EITHER you have a small, safe yard attached to your covering yard where foal can stay and be close to Mum - while out of harm's way, OR you have someone to hold foal. I prefer the latter, but we also have the yard set-up for when we're short-handed.

If a stud couldn't offer a better solution for ensuring the safety of the foal during covering then I would be taking mare and foal home promptly and finding a stud that did things properly and safely!

[/ QUOTE ] Totally agree with you - absolutely disgusted that a stud would do this to a foal whilst the mare is being covered. Would love to know what stud it was to stay well away from it. We have a stud here and all the foals at foot are held in a corner whilst mum is covered. That way the mare isn't stressed as she can see her foal, the foal happily sees mum, and even our stallion seems more relaxed when he sees a baby in the corner. There must be someone about they could get hold of to hold either mum or the baby whilst they are covering. I know when we've got a foal at foot, we always make sure we've got extra hands around the place when we're covering.
 
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As I understand it (and I have never seen it happen) it involves tying them up to something very solid and letting them turn themselves inside out running about until they realise they can't get away. ie they give in.
frown.gif


I was initially really against the stud doing it. Their argument was that it was for foalie's safety as she needed to be out of reach when the mare was re-covered. I had a long chat with them and they insisted they would do it gently and I do know they have years of experience. Was my decision to let them do it (I am mean, yes) and whilst I do not necessarily agree with the process it has done her no harm at all.


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I'm appalled - that anyone would DO this to a young foal - and at the excuse they offer! The risk of doing serious damage to the soft bones of the skull in a young foal is very high indeed; the risk of it turning itself over backwards and doing serious damage to back, neck or legs is very high; and the stress it would cause to a young foal to be 'torn' from Mother and treated in this way is very likely to be sufficient to predispose to ulcers!!

It is very easy to handle a foal safely while covering. EITHER you have a small, safe yard attached to your covering yard where foal can stay and be close to Mum - while out of harm's way, OR you have someone to hold foal. I prefer the latter, but we also have the yard set-up for when we're short-handed.

If a stud couldn't offer a better solution for ensuring the safety of the foal during covering then I would be taking mare and foal home promptly and finding a stud that did things properly and safely!

[/ QUOTE ] Totally agree with you - absolutely disgusted that a stud would do this to a foal whilst the mare is being covered. Would love to know what stud it was to stay well away from it. We have a stud here and all the foals at foot are held in a corner whilst mum is covered. That way the mare isn't stressed as she can see her foal, the foal happily sees mum, and even our stallion seems more relaxed when he sees a baby in the corner. There must be someone about they could get hold of to hold either mum or the baby whilst they are covering. I know when we've got a foal at foot, we always make sure we've got extra hands around the place when we're covering.

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OK - I did NOT want to start a persecution on the stud that I used and I will NOT be naming them as they have done nothing wrong. My foal is fine. I simply used my example as an example, nothing more, nothing less.

I wanted opinions on the general process of swinging and if anyone had any experience of it, plus whether it was still done so I am not really looking for people to tell me I shouldn't have used that stud. I did and my foal is fine. I also would use them again.

Still, I've definitely got some good replies/ opinions - at least that it is a barbaric principle and most people HATE the idea!
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(not sure what's given me that impression....)
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Just wondering though if any of you have actually seen it done?
 
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We have a problem horse at work (rising three) and the owners have been talking about swinging him like this. He is a rearer and is getting dangerous. He came down on my head a couple of months ago-not nice. Still, Im not sure whether it will work or not I think he needed more handling when he was a baby and his time has possibly passed to come right
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You've got an immediate problem doing it to a 3 year old - chances are he'll break anything you use to tie him up - and it won't do ANYTHING to help with rearing anyway! And of COURSE it's not too late to sort his problem - it will just require a certain amount of skill and experience to cure the horse without killing it!!
 
Thats appalling, and the thing is you may not know if any damage has been done until you come to break it in. I hope no permanant damage has been done
 
My friend did work experience at a showing yard and they did this to their foals. One was done 3 days before a show and was fab to lead and won the class.
It's not something I would do though.
 
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I know the people well and I trusted them with my foalie - yes they are somewhat archaic but I have never heard of them damaging a foal, ever. and tbh would they take the risk?

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Firstly, it is perfectly possible to damage a foal without knowing it - would an owner add two and two together when their foal develops Wobbler Syndrome at 18 months old, for example?? And yes, they DID take the risk - with your foal - and others. It's certainly NOT a risk I'd be prepared to take under any circumstances.

Same with 'flipping' a foal - although I HAVE flipped a weanling colt before - in a carefully selected environment (the outdoor school.) He was a positively obnoxious little chap who thought rearing and boxing at you was fun - so I led him into the manege and when he went up, he went down (not over backwards) - I have a technique for flipping them onto their side which is relatively 'safe'. I only use it in an extreme case though - and never with anything less than 8 months old where gentler methods have failed.

This is a pic of my trying/covering yards:

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When it is time to cover, the mare goes to the position the stallion is in in this pic. The foal stays in the smaller yard (where the mare is in this pic.). The person holding the mare is ALSO in the smaller yard and holds the mare over the trying wall (prevents her being trampled if the mare decides to be a cow!) Ideally I'd have someone holding the foal - off to one side - so that the mare doesn't interpret the stallion's approach as a potential threat to foal - but if I don't have a spare person, the person holding the mare can shoo foal away from the trying wall if he gets too close. Foal can see, smell and hear mare and is rarely in the slightest bit worried at the seperation.
 
ok, thank you all for your comments and points on what should happen when a mare is covered. I do appreciate this input but this was not my question at all - I wish I hadn't posted about my own foal because it seems people are jumping on that and making assumptions which was not the intention of my post.

Janet George - I understand that injuries may not be apparent but is there proof that swinging causes wobblers?

As I said before though - opinions are obviously very strong on this and that is what I wanted to hear as I am interested in thoughts and experiences on the method. thanks!
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GigglePig if the horse is that young I personally wouldnt do it. Id be much more inclined to go down the chiropracter and chifney route first. Rearing is a completely different kettle of fish to something that refuses to tie up and stand nicely and you could do a lot of damage at the back of the skull trying to stop him going up this way.

Wedging a rearer hard into the corner of a stable can help stop them going up as they cannot sit down on their bottoms to get that lift.

It may be better for you just to keep well out of this horses way given its already landed on you!

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Dont worry Im keeping well out of it, if they want to do it then its up to them Im having no part of it. Its the one horse there that I refuse to handle-I dont get paid enough danger money!
 
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Same with 'flipping' a foal - although I HAVE flipped a weanling colt before - in a carefully selected environment (the outdoor school.) He was a positively obnoxious little chap who thought rearing and boxing at you was fun - so I led him into the manege and when he went up, he went down (not over backwards) - I have a technique for flipping them onto their side which is relatively 'safe'. I only use it in an extreme case though - and never with anything less than 8 months old where gentler methods have failed.

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It is one of those things that has its place when the rewards start to outweigh the risks but as you say, it needs to be done in a safe environment with skilled handling and only in very rare instances. I've talked to people who honestly think a foal *has* to flip over to learn to lead properly!
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At least in such a case a person is attached to the lead so the person would "give" before the pressure became extreme - no so with a foal tied to an immovable object.

I doubt there has been any study of early spinal trauma and later breakdown (outside of the rollkur debate) but I do wonder that it isn't a more considered issue. The spine is basically all joints, which each have growth plates . . . we know that growth plate injury in the limbs can result in arthritis etc. that doesn't show up until later on, particularly after the joints have "closed". . . the joints of the spine don't close until a horse is at least 6 . . . so it doesn't seem a stretch to theorise early damage might lead to later problems. I do know there is some thought that the apparent increase in Wobblers MIGHT be because of the horses we are breeding and current methods of riding/training. Spines are fragile and it's only now, with modern technology, that we are starting to get an idea of how many horses actually have spinal problems at the root of subtle lameness and behavioural issues, not to mention outright neurological disease. Food for thought. . .
 
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Janet George - I understand that injuries may not be apparent but is there proof that swinging causes wobblers?


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Absolutely not - Wobbler syndrome is a pretty complex condition which undoubtedly has several pre-disposing factors as well as a number of 'triggers'. But neck trauma sure isn't going to help!
 
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I've talked to people who honestly think a foal *has* to flip over to learn to lead properly!
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Totally mad! I've done it to maybe 3 in my life - the vast majority of properly handled foals never need anything as extreme to teach them to lead perfectly!
 
Maybe this old fashioned way was used more commenly when less people were breeding so the big studs that were didnt have time to handle foals so when they came in for any reason they were still quite wild??? my foals are well handled from early on and will lead, stand for a farrier etc with no problems at all, they arnt spoilt rotten but do learn some basics but they are not tied up at a young age, i imagine a mare being recovered means the foal is still only a few weeks, months old?? Our mares get recovered using AI but the foals have never been a problem to hold out of the way, if they are still young it isnt hard to keep a good hold of them anyway. Not a practise i would ever use but glad it went ok for you
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I foolishly did this to a young horse many years ago as a last resort when he wouldn't tie up to anything and was difficult to lead. the result was a panicking, totally wild horse who was injured and lucky to still be alive. Don't do it, i think in my horses case that there was an underlying reason why he was frightened about feeling trapped and what i did just made him mad.
 
i,ve seen it done , not in the last 20 years thank goodness , although there was no visible damage to foal i couldnt see the point to be honest
i,ve bred my own foals who are by six months totally comfortable with being tied up , in stable or lorry they walk and trot led , in front or behind thier dam from a month old , before that they are wearing a halter and easily held in full view of dam for covering or any treatment she may need , no need to tie such a young foal up, just lack of staff at stud perhaps?
 
i think this is an awful practice and with almost ne horse given the right amount of time and correct training will happily tie up (and should) < ive had loads of young horses in, all diff temp ect some take longer than others!! How scared your foal must have been(his/her level of comprehension is minimal at a young age)(is no way of being sure he/she will never pull back in the future nor that your foal wouldnt have just tied up)!!, what a shame n how sad!!
 
It does seem to be an outdated practice. I'm not sure what we'll do with our foal (Due April 18th) I suppose we'll see how polite he / she is when we come to it.

Although we do have 2 Rising 4yo's, Charlie we've had from a 2yo bought from Thirsk sales, swung by previous owners the day before the sale, having been unhandled before then (except for being gelded). He is very good at being tied up, never pulled back even when spooked
Ed has been here from 8 wks old regularly handled from foal, he's never been swung, and he pulls back and breaks head collars and ropes for fun!! Make of that what you will!!
 
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