Sycamore seeds

Fools Motto

Fools Motto

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Can you really REALLY stop ponies eating them? If the tree itself is fenced off, what distance can they 'fly'?
I'm probably aware that many would say move the ponies, so no such tree is even remotely close, but this isn't an option in this situation.
There is equally no chance I can see the seeds in the fallen leaves either - poor eye sight, so I don't even know what I'm doing/thinking/over thinking or panicking about, as in total brain fry about this.
 
Fools Motto said:
Can you really REALLY stop ponies eating them? If the tree itself is fenced off, what distance can they 'fly'?
I'm probably aware that many would say move the ponies, so no such tree is even remotely close, but this isn't an option in this situation.
There is equally no chance I can see the seeds in the fallen leaves either - poor eye sight, so I don't even know what I'm doing/thinking/over thinking or panicking about, as in total brain fry about this.
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If you absolutely can'y get a horse away from the risk of picking up seeds, make sure there is plenty of grass and hay to prevent the horses/ponies from feeling the need to go and graze within the leaves. Temporary fencing can be useful but the seeds can travel a pretty long distance in the wind...certainly far enough to cross a small postage stamp type paddock. Just do what you can to remove the need for the horses/ponies to go looking for food.

Good luck. It's a huge concern and there have been fatal cases reported now this Autumn. Have a look at this if you want more info.

http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/Defraoctl-dec2013_focus.pdf
 
_GG_ said:
If you absolutely can'y get a horse away from the risk of picking up seeds, make sure there is plenty of grass and hay to prevent the horses/ponies from feeling the need to go and graze within the leaves. Temporary fencing can be useful but the seeds can travel a pretty long distance in the wind...certainly far enough to cross a small postage stamp type paddock. Just do what you can to remove the need for the horses/ponies to go looking for food.

Good luck. It's a huge concern and there have been fatal cases reported now this Autumn. Have a look at this if you want more info.

http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/Defraoctl-dec2013_focus.pdf
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Thank you.
 
The trees are everywhere. You can't stop it. I have about 7 on my lines and can't do anything about it. Never had a sick horse in 16 years so it still really baffles me why this is so prevalent all of a sudden.
 
It's also worth double checking that they are Sycamores, not Ash trees. A lady that lives down the lane from me was in a real panic about it and I said, I hadn't seen a single Sycamore at her place. Turns out they are all Ash trees, she just assumed they were Sycamore because of the seeds being so similar.
 
They can go a long way if it's windy. Last year after both mine got AM I moved the survivor to a yard with no sycamores in sight but still got some when it was very stormy. Luckily none this year (so far) as we haven't had strong winds. You can only do your best, remind yourself that only some seeds carry the toxin & keep your fingers crossed. As said above feeding forage in the field helps.
 
equi said:
The trees are everywhere. You can't stop it. I have about 7 on my lines and can't do anything about it. Never had a sick horse in 16 years so it still really baffles me why this is so prevalent all of a sudden.
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I’m in exactly the same position as you Equi. Got a big one in the hedge of our field, had the same horses in the same field for over 15 years, never had a problem. (Touch wood..)

Just curious though, as a tad ignorant to the whole thing, how may does a horse have to eat? Are we classing these seeds in the same ‘danger’ category as ragwort/poison ivy? Seen ragwort out in fields with horses even now, after being told for years to pull the stuff up. Never hear of many cases of ragwort poisoning nowadays - are these seeds the ‘new poison’ ??

Horses need to eat a fair bit of ragwort to get sick and also have to be jolly hungry…. Is this the same for a sycamore seed? Are people not feeding their horses enough so they go foraging about through leaves in search of food? If anything horses eat around leaves/tree debree looking for grass. Horses are not scavengers are they??
 
equi said:
The trees are everywhere. You can't stop it. I have about 7 on my lines and can't do anything about it. Never had a sick horse in 16 years so it still really baffles me why this is so prevalent all of a sudden.
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seems as though the toxin in question is produced in response to environmental stress-they just arent sure what the environmental stress is yet except that toxin production varies within and between trees.

My last place was full of sycamores and the sort of wet pasture that they warn about. Never knew any problems but when talking to a very well known equine vet about the place a year ago, he said some of the first recorded cases were from that area back in the late 70s. No sycamores near me now thankfully.

I think that given that diagnosis of equine grass sickness is so iffy, that some vets have mistaken ATM for EGS in some circumstances-early signs are quite similar and non-specific although there are important differences between them. Both seem to have certain management practices that offer some protection ie supplementary feeding but even then, its very much down to very bad luck.
 
I have many acorns and over 30 years have never had a problem agree they need plenty of forage. I spoke to the Forestry commission yesterday and they had talks with the BHS about this problem and again forage was an issue and fencing off. You can fell trees in your garden,and up to 6 cubic feet a quarter(i think that was the figure) for the timber to have any value it must be very white. The main problem is the cost of felling and haulage. You might get £30 a ton for firewood but might nee 12 tons to make a dealer interested.
 
Tory27 said:
I’m in exactly the same position as you Equi. Got a big one in the hedge of our field, had the same horses in the same field for over 15 years, never had a problem. (Touch wood..)

Just curious though, as a tad ignorant to the whole thing, how may does a horse have to eat? Are we classing these seeds in the same ‘danger’ category as ragwort/poison ivy? Seen ragwort out in fields with horses even now, after being told for years to pull the stuff up. Never hear of many cases of ragwort poisoning nowadays - are these seeds the ‘new poison’ ??

Horses need to eat a fair bit of ragwort to get sick and also have to be jolly hungry…. Is this the same for a sycamore seed? Are people not feeding their horses enough so they go foraging about through leaves in search of food? If anything horses eat around leaves/tree debree looking for grass. Horses are not scavengers are they??
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It is largely agreed that many many cases were being misdiagnosed until fairly recently.

I don't think it's a surprise that it's become more prevalent or seen as a "new" issue. I think that has more to do with the massive shift in our general management of horses.

30 years ago, as a child, I don't remember ever seeing a horse on it's own in a postage stamp paddock. I'm sure it happened, but it was not the norm. Most horses were kept on plenty of grazing and in herds. Nowadays, livery yards, small paddocks, individual or paired turnout or restricted turnout are more normal and many horses go out on overgrazed paddocks. When this happens and there isn't access to plenty of forage in the form of hay or haylage, of course the horses will look for something else.

Also, when you look at horses in herds, with plenty of grazing and access to hedges, they spend almost as much time browsing the hedgerows as they do grazing. They pick out rosehips, blackberries....all sorts...whatever they need and they become very good at knowing what they needs as individuals. All of these plants and the different nutrients in different grasses, herbs and wild flowers can help the gut process the food that is eaten.

I think, when we remove the choice of the horse to eat as it naturally would, we need to make sure we supplement that with forage to prevent the horse picking up the nasties as they go looking for food.
 
The only thing sycamores are dropping at this time of year are their leaves. Ash trees, on the other hand, will be full of seed pods in Autumn.

Sycamore trees only produce seed pods once a year in late spring / early summer, dependent on weather conditions. Granted, some of the seed pods may still be on the ground at this time of year but they're not fresh and will have been there all summer.
 
deb_l222 said:
The only thing sycamores are dropping at this time of year are their leaves. Ash trees, on the other hand, will be full of seed pods in Autumn.

Sycamore trees only produce seed pods once a year in late spring / early summer, dependent on weather conditions. Granted, some of the seed pods may still be on the ground at this time of year but they're not fresh and will have been there all summer.
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Yep, this is why I mentioned checking the trees are correctly identified on page one. Ash are only similar in the helicopter seed pods...my OH read about sycamore poisoning and assumed we had loads here as we have quite a few Ash trees, luckily only one Sycamore in the garden and nowhere near the horses.

I think probably quite a few are miss-identified.
 
I think it is very sad that people advocate cutting sdown all syacmores. Trees are precious, both for looks and the environment. I am taking Equi's attitude to it, there is only so much worrying about a horse I can manage.
 
I have only one tree produce and helicopters this year and that one has hardly any. I have no idea why they didn't appear this year. The vet thinks my tree is an ornamental maple but I still wouldn't risk it. I checked yesterday for fallen seeds after the wind and couldn't find any so hopefully they have dropped inside the electric fence.
 
deb_l222 said:
The only thing sycamores are dropping at this time of year are their leaves. Ash trees, on the other hand, will be full of seed pods in Autumn.

Sycamore trees only produce seed pods once a year in late spring / early summer, dependent on weather conditions. Granted, some of the seed pods may still be on the ground at this time of year but they're not fresh and will have been there all summer.
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My sycamore trees are dropping seeds now. They drop seeds in the autumn along with leaves and grow more in the spring. This is why there are more cases in the autumn.
 
deb_l222 said:
The only thing sycamores are dropping at this time of year are their leaves. Ash trees, on the other hand, will be full of seed pods in Autumn.

Sycamore trees only produce seed pods once a year in late spring / early summer, dependent on weather conditions. Granted, some of the seed pods may still be on the ground at this time of year but they're not fresh and will have been there all summer.
Click to expand...

Are you sure the helicopters don't come down with the leaves in the autumn and then start growing in spring having lain dormant all winter?
 
lelly said:
My sycamore trees are dropping seeds now. They drop seeds in the autumn along with leaves and grow more in the spring. This is why there are more cases in the autumn.
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i found that as well before I removed the tree. Otherwise if they didn't drop the seeds now there would be no seeds on the ground to cause a problem in the autumn and the only way for them to eat the seeds would be directly off the tree which could easily be fenced off.
 
Tory27 said:
I’m in exactly the same position as you Equi. Got a big one in the hedge of our field, had the same horses in the same field for over 15 years, never had a problem. (Touch wood..)

Just curious though, as a tad ignorant to the whole thing, how may does a horse have to eat? Are we classing these seeds in the same ‘danger’ category as ragwort/poison ivy? Seen ragwort out in fields with horses even now, after being told for years to pull the stuff up. Never hear of many cases of ragwort poisoning nowadays - are these seeds the ‘new poison’ ??

Horses need to eat a fair bit of ragwort to get sick and also have to be jolly hungry…. Is this the same for a sycamore seed? Are people not feeding their horses enough so they go foraging about through leaves in search of food? If anything horses eat around leaves/tree debree looking for grass. Horses are not scavengers are they??
Click to expand...

There is no way to tell whose horse they will affect, horses can graze together and one be affected and others not. There also seems little understanding of "volume" that has to be eaten although they do say it's more prevalent where there is little grass to eat. It can only be properly diagnosed for definite postmortem, as symptoms can be similar to other conditions however most horses that contract it seem to decline very quickly indeed.
 
The problem with knowing how much they need to eat is that the level of toxin varies from negligible & not likely to cause a problem to very high. So even if it was known how much toxin is needed to cause a problem you don't know how many seeds are needed to reach that level because one batch of seeds could be just a few & another batch of seeds is never going to cause an issue. And those differences can be on the same tree in the same year. Once you have seen a horse with AM you are going to get neurotic because it is a foul condition & you will forever feel that if only you had made a different decision it wouldn't have happened. But there is only so much you can do and so much is unknown you could easily drive yourself nuts worrying about it.
 
True, hairycob. It's a terrible thing. My boys are nearer to the trees than I would like, but thankfully further away from them than my poor mare was this spring when she came down with AM. My YO has promised me a change of field in the spring, so I am hoping and praying to get through this winter and then once they're in their new field it will be much, much less of a worry.
 
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If moving isn't an option I would put bales of hay/haulage in the field.

I lost my filly last autumn, in a field that's had horses in it 30+ years. Unfortunately not only did my vet tell me it was "the latest fad" and not to worry when I asked him what measures I should take, he suggested restricting her grazing because she was gaining weight.

We are currently in process of moving but nonetheless the tree came down. And seeing as it was a very large specimen it was no easy task between four of us.
 
An interesting (& sensible) leaflet from BHS on AM and prevention. Interesting to note that the reported cases in UK increased from 3 in 2010 to 51 in 2013. A big percentage rise, but still very small figures considering the number of horses & sycamore trees in the UK. 17 cases in Netherlands, Belgium & Germany have been linked to sycamore seeds. http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/Files/PDF Documents/Atypical Myopathy.ashx
 
You have to remember that the reporting is entirely voluntary & is managed by the University of Liege. Until 2014 many vets as well.as owners were unaware of it. In 2014 there were well over 100 cases reported. I can check the numbers.
 
Found it. Mid January Liege were showing 165 reported UK cases for the Autumn alone. The spring was very bad last year as well - that's when my 2 cases were & I personally know of 3 other cases that same spring. Remember as well that only confirmed cases will be logged. A lot of times it is suspected but never confirmed as the horse is already dead & if there is no insurance claim tests are unlikely to be carried out.
 
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