tack...why is it that.....?

"Because a horse is more comfortable in what may essentially be a stronger bit then the rider can use lighter and more refined aids; much nicer for the horse than being pulled around in a 'mild' bit that won't encourage the rider to have soft hands. It doesn't always involve lots of schooling, although schooling should always be done regardless, a comfy horse is a comfy horse and that makes a difference to his way of going."


^^^^^^

To Tinypony - this is sort of what I was trying to say
 
I do personally prefer to ride in the mildest tack you can get away with. previous horse had a NS Verbinend bit, cavesson noseband and no martingale......all fine.

Current horse- young, unbalanced- had gaps in his education- I have had to resort to a standing martingale to avoid having my nose smashed in....he has a high head carriage and when excited throws it around, although he has improved immensely and I hope to able to get rid of it at some point. Until then - it only comes into play when he's a nugget- otherwise it sits there doing nowt;). Bit wise....the NS was no good for him, he's not ready for it yet. He's going lovely now in a copper-lozenged beval bit.

I have no problem what-so-ever in people using whatever they feel they need for their horse....as long as it fits properly and they understand the action of whatever hey are using.
My massive bug-bear is flash nosebands....I know they have a use and people do use them for their intended purpose, but they seem to be really fashionable right now and I'm sure some people just use them because the bridle happens to have one on......

Don't get me started on badly fitted tack......
 
I wish I was a bit more of a tack expert, this may not carry the weight I want LOL but we tried my new mare in just a plain snaffle canvesson, no arty farty bits, she was totally distracted because she kept opening her mouth and playing with the air. Stuck a flash on her and she settled down to work.

A horse I used to ride wore a grackle, breatplate, martingale and 2 different types of boots. It used to take me 40 mins to tack him up!!! The grackle looked uncomfortable for him and I have never used one so I have no idea what they are for, the martingale was to stop him spooking... I was very much under the impression martingales were to stop your face being smashed not prevent spooking so am confused here??

The only time I have ever had to use a sever bit in a horse was one that refused to stop b***ering off with me, so I used a gag with double reins on advice of a racehorse trainer.. That didn't stop the problem!! If I have to change Darco's tack.... I would assume from previous experience that it's me LOL that needs to change first.... But then we'll see in a few weeks eh?? :D
 
diggerbez said:
having read a lot of posts on here about various bits of tack...how come some people think that you can only be riding properly if you have a simple snaffle and a cavesson? and that if you have anything in addition to this you must be crap/trying to force horse's head in etc etc?

don't get me wrong, it would be great if every horse would go in a nice soft snaffle and a simple cavesson, but really they don't do they....what is wrong with using tack or training aids etc if it helps to get the horse working correctly (and often safely)? so yes, i have used draw reins on spooky types, flashes on horses who cross their jaw, pelhams on horses you can't stop for love nor money, standing martingales when you need control and want to keep your face in one piece etc etc... i get so frustrated when people who do nothing but hack in walk criticise people for using extra equipment needed for their needs...i'm not saying there is anything wrong with hacking in walk but once you start moving faster/ jumping higher etc etc you maybe need a bit more precision control?
is it just me?????
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I'm with you ;)

The ignorance and "I'm a better rider than you lot" attitude of some of the snaffle brigade can be very annoying.
 
There are moans about using flash nosebands as they are fashionable, the use of a cavesson is usually cosmetic & not really needed for anything at all. People just like the look of it. I don't bother with a noseband except for showing & dressage where they are required tack but my horses don't need them.
 
AndySpooner said:
^^Agree^^

I can't help thinking that many folk confuse horse riding with bike riding. The reins don't steer, the bit isnt a brake, and your legs arn't kicking the throttle. We are supposted to be asking the horse, not mechanically working the parts.

Your seat is not for sitting on, lol.
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Well said. If only more people were taught to ride correctly, we wouldnt have as many people in the kick and pull brigade.

I think what a lot of people have said about horses for courses, in that they are all different and respond to different methods. A warmblood may be harder to train that a connemara and may require a different approach.
But for me, a lot of it has to do with people for courses as well. It depends on how we are taught to ride, and how to deal with training issues. so if someone is taught to use a flash for a horse that opens its mouth, or spurs for a horse that wont go off the leg, these are the methods that a lot of people will rely on, as they are what is very widely taught.

To me, horsemanship isnt about tools and gadgets, to me, its about me and the horse. The horse is a very sensitive animal, who can feel a fly land on his coat. So if we encourage a horse to be soft and responsive, they would be a lot easier to ride. Unfortunately, a lot of horses are allowed to get heavy, and unresponsive by not enough handling, or too much handling in the wrong way. If a horse is allowed to be unresponsive, either in his mouth by heavy hands, or on his sides by kicking, he will be a lot less easy to ride. This is generally were we start to think about using gadgets to fix the problems.

I dont really have a problem with the tack and gadgets people use, after all, like i have said, it depends on how we have been taught to deal with these problems. But to me, id rather use minimum tack, knowing that I am the one who trained the horse, instead of the gadget training the horse.

I use to ride with bits, martingales and spurs. But after getting a pony who pulled like a tank, and not wanting to use a harsh bit, i decided to long rein her in a headcollar. After seeing how much calmer that pony went, i decided to keep her bitless. Now i can ride her without anything on her head. Just by taking her back a few stages, i was able to deal with this issue myself, using less tools than previously. I think that if more people went back a few stages with their horse, and really looked at the reason their horse behaves in the way it does, gadgets might not even be needed. But thats just my view. Every one has their own views on which tack is best for their horse.
 
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Just out of curiosity, do people always go straight for a gadget, like flash, draw reins, bigger bit etc, for trainng issues, or do you look at WHY your horse behaves a certain way, ie high head carraige, crossing jaw, tanking off? Just curious, not wanting to start an argument or anything. I just feel that sometimes people look for a quick fix, instead of dealing with the CAUSE of the problem.
 
Shoot me down now - my horse does everything in snaffle and cavesson inc hunting, xc and sj. She's shown in a pelham as her mouth is to small for a double. Gadgets have their place but like any gadget be it spurs, whips, drawreins etc they can all be misused and cause damage mostly through lack of knowledge rather than spite. I stop my horse using my weight and voice and can canter up the woods on a loose rein without her tanking off (exracer). My ex instructor used to put my horse in drawreins which is fine for her as she rides 4 - 6 horses a day and has the strength of leg to back it up where as I don't. I've just been for a sj lesson on my YO horse, her first ever lesson and we worked on getting her to wait and listen for my body and weight - however she wears a martingale !
 
I don't think tinypony was suggesting that everyone should ride around brideless & bareback guys, just that masses of gadgets aren't needed. They said that they use bits in their 3 horses.

In my experience it really depends on the horse as to what gadgets you need in place to ride it, although I always try to make sure there isn't something I'm doing wrong first!
For example when I was younger the noseband on the bridle of our loan pony broke, she still went fine so Dad didn't see the point of spending money on a new one. However you could also ride this pony out to the field in a headcollar :D . I used to ride a later pony in a dutch gag for hunting but he was a bit of a tanker & it would make him listen. I was always told to be gentle in it though as it was a harsh bit! I also had a loan pony who was ridden in a gag XC & SJ as he had an extremely hard mouth. Unfortunately at ~24 he was a bit old to be retrained.

However I also got a pony that came in a pelham with a standing martingale so tight that his head was strapped into a rounded position :( we gradually weaned him off the standing martingale for hacking, & built up his topline to decrease the power he had under his neck but I rode him in a market harborough martingale, as he would put his head up & bolt. I also changed straight out of the pelham, originally into a snaffle then after much trying a waterford as he worked best in that & was more responsive. Unfortunately after he bolted (again) with me & took me over a metal 5-bar gate (whilst wearing the market harborough), onto our lane it was decided he wasn't the horse for me.

My current horse has a loose-ring jointed snaffle for hacking/dressage but I jump her in a cheltenham gag, she rests extremely heavily on the forehand & jumping in a snaffle results in my arms almost being dislocated :rolleyes: haha. However I'm trying to get her to go in a snaffle which I think may be possible.. one day. In regards to flash-nosebands, I use one, originally because she opened her mouth but now its more that its on the bridle so I do it up.. I don't even really do it tight.. I should probably take it off, I suppose its just habit!
 
Jennyharvey said:
Just out of curiosity, do people always go straight for a gadget, like flash, draw reins, bigger bit etc, for trainng issues, or do you look at WHY your horse behaves a certain way, ie high head carraige, crossing jaw, tanking off? Just curious, not wanting to start an argument or anything. I just feel that sometimes people look for a quick fix, instead of dealing with the CAUSE of the problem.
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oh i would always look at the cause and then try to work towards a solution...usually by having lessons. i rarely change my tack unless advised to by my trainer who i trust implicitly.... if she feels its needed then i try it and it usually works. so, for example, my 6 year old has recently gotten VERY strong cross country. all the trying to ride (and slow down) from my seat was completely pointless- as soon as he came out of the start box and saw a fence he was off :rolleyes: i did a lot of schooling, really working on control etc etc but in the comp situation it just wasn't working. actually had a fall at one comp as came to a fence too fast and took off on a stupid stride. trainer suggested a waterford- it worked a treat at last event and meant that i could use my seat more effectively than in the french link where he was just running away.... i hope one day to get back down to the french link, but we'll see....
 
I agree with bits and pieces (pardon the pun) of what everyone has said on this thread and I do agree with the OP. With a new horse I start with the minimum and see how we go. If a 'problem' can be fix using schooling then thats what I would do. If a problem is fixed using a gadget correctly then I do that too....

A good example of this is a cob I used to loan I used to ride in a french link snaffle and running martingale as her owner said that was what she was best suited too. For XC and SJ we used a Dutch gag on middle and bottom bubbles as she was very keen.

She was very strong jumping and it could take a lot of effort to ride around a XC or SJ - eventually through schooling and some lessons we did try a rugby pelham... Well the change was unbelievable. She became light and responsive and her jumping improved as I could be lighter with my hands and guide her rather than fight her over fences.... Meant that we could ditch the running martingale too! She was 10 when I loaned her and I rode her for two years. I still ride her occasionally now and my friends 10 year old now competes her.... Fabulous fabulous pony.
 
horserider said:
I have no issue with thoughtfully used tack, but would prefer to look at the underlying reason for needing supplementry tack first.]

And tinypony, you are bang on. I read an article through a link on here a few weeks ago, all 54 pages of it, about bits and biting. It was written by a swedish woman, who went through every bit ever invented, giving the pros and cons of each one. Very informative, and made me realise we are "programmed" by our teachers to inherit their opinions. My boy is in a french link and loves it, no martingale, as so far we havnt needed one. I think too many people just "over tack" their horses rather than trying to figure out why??
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I guess it depends on the situation.

I prefer a snaffle on all our ponies. But we also haved used a kimblewick and a pelham. I used these on the kids ponies, as the kids weighed between 20-30 kilos and sometimes were being pulled on by the pony (weighing 350-600 kgs). With a mullen mouth pelham (hope that is right name) this stopped immediately. They had good hands and were pretty kind with the bit, so pony was happy and so were they. As the kids are getting older and better, they use snaffle more often. In fact, we only use a kimblewick on one of the ponies sometimes now.

By the same token we have several very good natural horsemanship people nearby. (One whom is competing at a Grand Prix dressage level now). and they can ride their horses even in a collected frame without a bridle. They do not need these tools, but they use them to achieve even greater refinement in their riding. So bits and equipment are not bad.

I draw the line at some of the more barbaric bits with twisted pieces of wire and chains, that you can see on line if you look. They should be something that does not cause undue discomfort to the horse.
 
Lots of opinions here on the severity of different bits, and perhaps understandable views on harshness.

We should always remember that with bits and bitting we are dealing with the most sensitive part of the horses anatomy, therefore whatever we decide to put in the horses mouth, improper use can and will cause discomfort or pain depending on how we put pressure on the bit through the rein.

Some people appear to generalise that the simple snaffle is the kindest of bits and is the benchmark from where we start.

I have to disagree with this perception as I believe that the snaffle, commonly used by novice riders is tremendously harsh combining the 'nutcracker' effect with the jointed point having contact with the roof of the mouth, sometimes exacerbated with a flash nose band, not allowing the horse to open its mouth to avoid the jabbing effect.

The problem as I see it is two fold, that people are taught to ride using a bit, and young horses are bitted too early, before they have been taught to respond to a rider asking for slow or stop through the seat.

With riders being taught to ride without the reliance on reins and bits, and horses backed and brought on in bosal or headcollar these problems can be addressed.

It matters not what bit is in the horses mouth providing the rider knows how to use it. The idea of what are perceived as harsh bits is to promote lightness, but, poorly trained horses have caused people to rely on harsh bits as a physical brake, which they are not and certainly not intended to be used this way.
 
Sorry I caused confusion yesterday, sometimes it's hard to explain what you mean on a forum.
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However, I had a brilliant ride, off down a bridleway in the sunshine, pony bouncing along happily (bareback pad and rope halter), it was great.
Here's what I'm trying to say. But first let me make it clear that there is no criticism, implied or otherwise, of what anyone does with their horses. Put simply, as long as the horses aren't getting hurt, I just don't care what anyone else does.
Many people and trainers think that as a horse get faster, more involved in competition or whatever, the only way to remain in control is to move to stronger tack. That is one answer, but not the only answer. I have travelled to study with trainers who prove this day in and day out, with their own and other people's horses. It is just a matter of training style and experience. I have spent so much time with people who go fast, jump high, control bolting horses etc in maybe just a rope halter that I know this to be true. At the end of the day, the rider has to stay safe and keep the horse safe, so who can criticise the fact that people choose to achieve this differently?
Similarly, there is a widely held belief that horses can't work in a true correct "outline" and self carriage unless they have a bit in their mouth. Some very highly respected trainers have emphasised this to me, speaking of needing to "soften the jaw" and other technical terms. My good friend is a classical trainer and has ridden with some greats. She understands all of that and how it relates to training a riding horse. And yet, having taken a step back and studied some more, she now rides her horses in beautiful collection in a rope halter. Again, I'm not saying everyone has to do that, I'm just saying that it is possible, an alternative. If we go to the right places to see the right people we can also see that it is possible to get true collection without any tack - Honza Blaha, Karen Rholf, Philip Nye to name a few (although it's very hard to get to see Philip Nye in action these days!).
Say you get a new horse that is unresponsive to the bit he wears, leaning, ignoring requests to stop when moving at speed etc. One answer that would work would be to change his tack, use something stronger. When I was in that situation I stepped back, returned to the arena, reschooled him to a rope halter and then went back out into the great outdoors and rode him in that for a year before reintroducing a bit. Both options are valid, both work, it's just personal choice, no big deal.
All I am saying is that we are all a product of our training and experience. The fact that we sometimes come across people who have a different approach should not be a reason for conflict and criticism, but an opportunity to find out more about different ways of being with horses.
Hope that makes sense now.
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Oh, and I agree with Andy, although I might say that the horses are "differently" trained rather than "poorly" trained. Horses are only poorly trained if the rider is not happy with the results maybe?
 
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Kirsty+Java said:
As my Instructor said the other day..
It may go in a snaffle but you have an awful time Holding the horse and by the end it's mouth is sore
Or you put it in something stronger where you can a featherlight contact and have the horse forward in an outline and the horse is comfortable
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I agree with this .... I have a horse that pulls and shakes his head in anything except a mullen mouth pelham, he goes really light in his pelham, anything elase he is a nightmare.

I have at least 20 bits I have tried in him, including 2 hackamores (he took the micky in one of them and galloped off 3 miles down the beach when out for a canter ..... I couldn't stop him in it!) he is lovely in his pelham, I don't need to touch his mouth, just use my weight in the saddle.
 
I think far too many riders rely on their hands to control their horse much more than is actually necessary and this is why so many people object to seeing horses and expecially childrens ponies ridden in harsh bits and gadgets.

Lets face it, any type of bit can cause damage if used incorrectly. I have no issue with people using stronger bits etc for safety reasons and to give more precise direction when competing atthe higher levels. However, I prefer my own horses to be well schooled and responsive enough to be ridden in a snaffle and without additional gadgets in most situations.

What I do object to is strong bits etc being used because they are fashionable or novice riders using pelhams, gags, draw reins instead of investing in some lessons so can they ride more effectively.
 
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diggerbez said:
.i'm not saying there is anything wrong with hacking in walk but once you start moving faster/ jumping higher etc etc you maybe need a bit more precision control?
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I think it depends on the horse, but I dont agree that you might need more "precision control" just because you start jumping higher or whatever. There's no reason that a horse in a snaffle cant jump any height in one IMO. And yes, I compete (BE & BSJA) in a snaffle, cavesson noseband and no martingale etc. My issue is that too many people automatically wack their horses in stronger bits, martingales etc. when they dont need to.
 
MagicMelon said:
I think it depends on the horse, but I dont agree that you might need more "precision control" just because you start jumping higher or whatever. There's no reason that a horse in a snaffle cant jump any height in one IMO. And yes, I compete (BE & BSJA) in a snaffle, cavesson noseband and no martingale etc. My issue is that too many people automatically wack their horses in stronger bits, martingales etc. when they dont need to.
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I agree totally. i also think that people make things to difficult for themselves and their horse's. People are sometimes so fixated on the goal, that they forget that the training is what is important. People need to learn to ENJOY the training process, instead of just expecting the horse to go well, whatever we do to it. Instead of just trying to fix issues with tools and gadgets, we would strive on a challenge and actually enjoy working through those issues.

If more people enjoyed the training process, strong bits, gadgets, draw reins would never be needed because we just wouldnt need them.
 
i agree that a lot of the time "gadgeting up" is just avoiding deeper problem but my tb is sound as a pound 90% of the time and i ride caverson and a 3 ring dutch gag on the snaffle/hanging cheek setting. I like to get buy by having double reins, one on the bottom ring so when im out on the downs and he suddenly decides to remind me he's a racehorse I have control, I've been told by my instructor, who(although i guess it makes not much difference) is an olympic event rider and a MASSIVE advocate of snaffle was forward that it is dangerous to jump in anything weaker and i'll take her word for it after trying and failing.... I guess what works works but i like to think my solution is a goodun'
 
I also think any rider with cr*p hands shouldnt be allowed to ride in anything else... a snaffle does enough damage we certainly dont need novice in gags and pelhams... that i think begins to verge on cruelty...
 
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