Talk to me about PSSM

[Iwantakitten]

Hi all, I’ve been reading up about PSSM recently and know you lot are knowledgeable so hoping for a lightbulb moment.

Horse history: 10 years old 14.2 Appaloosa x new forest gelding. I’ve owned him for 3 years. Very mannerly on the ground. Now shod all round, has regular back, saddle, teeth, vaccs etc. Currently 2 x daily a small feed of molasses free happy hoof, Speedibeet, magnesium, valerian/brewers yeast mix, oestraban (otherwise gets humpy with mare field mate). Turned out 24/7 April - October, in over night in winter. Grazed on rough moor pasture in large 6 acre field with one other horse. At the moment getting hay twice a day in field as not enough grass through yet.

Behaviours/symptoms:
Either quiet as lamb or stressy/spooky (usually weather dependent)
Holds his muscles very firm (neck most noticeable)
Twitchy, sensitive skin
Relatively backwards thinking ridden, can be nappy/plant although on warm sunny days he’s perfect
Seems to prefer to be warmer than I would like to keep him
Big shoulders but weak behind, generally weedy looking and has never really looked like he filled out.

He’s been at the current yard for a couple years but I seem to remember less of these signs at his old yard but he was only there for the summer before we moved.

Little things I’ve been thinking about or noticed for example he wouldn’t be caught the other day as he was cold. He’d been out over night in 100g full neck and temps didn’t seem to warrant him being cold.

One time when it was warm and sunny, he was relaxed and snoozy tied on the yard, when I lifted a foot to pick out he almost fell over! (Maybe nothing, maybe something).

If he gets stressy in stable he can stand gawping over the door completely rigid.

Perhaps other signs that I haven’t considered or just brushed off as him.

Thinking of having tail hair sent to animal genetics for testing type 1 but any thoughts or advice welcome

 

[SEL]

I also have a part-bred Appy (part draft, which she blames for the size of her tummy!). She has PSSM type 1 and has a number of symptoms;

- sluggish under saddle. I know when she isn't feeling well because its like riding through treacle. She's generally quite cooperative so tries hard, but if she's pushed when she feels like this then she will buck and her hamstrings just get tighter and tighter until her back end feels like it belongs to a different horse. Muscle enzymes are usually elevated by this time.
- tight muscles in her quarters even when well.
- struggles with holding her hind legs up to have her feet trimmed. Needs lots of breaks.
- can nap really badly. Used to run backwards and has put us both into a drainage ditch before. Can be extremely spooky. I'm never sure whether this is PSSM related, but interestingly it is reported commonly with these horses - maybe its a pain response.
- her saddle never seems to fit no matter how many times it is adjusted!

She is very, very sensitive to sugar and her access to grass has to be limited. We're in the South East and fields down here are generally rye grass and fertilised for cattle, which is a nightmare. She really needs a large area of poor quality grass, preferably with some hills to help work her muscles - which is the opposite of what we actually have. Much better turned out, but does need to be rugged up.

Its so cheap to test that I think its worth pulling some hairs and sending them in just so you know what you're dealing with.

 

[ycbm]

Symptoms are spot on and high incidence in both breeds. NF society has just introduced mandatory screening for breeding stallions.

I would definitely test, but I would also try the diet in case he is type II.

I've noticed particularly that PSSM horses are spooky in bad weather, doubly so with rain drumming on a roof. Very odd.

 

[Iwantakitten]

Symptoms are spot on and high incidence in both breeds. NF society has just introduced mandatory screening for breeding stallions.

I would definitely test, but I would also try the diet in case he is type II.

I've noticed particularly that PSSM horses are spooky in bad weather, doubly so with rain drumming on a roof. Very odd.

Thanks for input SEL. He can seem calm and quiet as anything but then all of a sudden jump like a full twitch jump. I’ve noticed a lot more of this recently. Interesting comment about appys and spookiness as I put it down to the breed but it is so weather dependent. Not just fresh if it’s cold but really almost terrified of everything some days. I have to pick my battles when hacking is concerned.

YCBM thanks for confirming my thinking. Is there a good resource for planning a PSSM diet? More than happy to give that a try.

Thinking back I’m sure he was better when on linseed.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for input SEL. He can seem calm and quiet as anything but then all of a sudden jump like a full twitch jump. I’ve noticed a lot more of this recently. Interesting comment about appys and spookiness as I put it down to the breed but it is so weather dependent. Not just fresh if it’s cold but really almost terrified of everything some days. I have to pick my battles when hacking is concerned.

YCBM thanks for confirming my thinking. Is there a good resource for planning a PSSM diet? More than happy to give that a try.

Thinking back I’m sure he was better when on linseed.

Linseed is high oil and may well have helped.


'The diet' is masses of vitamin E (double quantity if buying synthetic) . Some need up to 12,000 iu but the two I have had have been good on 2,000 summer and 3,000 shoulders, 4,500 dead of winter. Forage Plus is probably the best supply atm.

Plus either 500ml of oil (yes, that much, really!) or 1g of alcar per 45kg bodyweight. I use alcar and have found it much more effective. Some horses do better on oil. Some horses are sent a bit spooky by alcar. Alcar, acetyl L carnetine(NOT L carnetine), by kilo cheapest on eBay.

 

[Iwantakitten]

Linseed is high oil and may well have helped.


'The diet' is masses of vitamin E (double quantity if buying synthetic) . Some need up to 12,000 iu but the two I have had have been good on 2,000 summer and 3,000 shoulders, 4,500 dead of winter. Forage Plus is probably the best supply atm.

Plus either 500ml of oil (yes, that much, really!) or 1g of alcar per 45kg bodyweight. I use alcar and have found it much more effective. Some horses do better on oil. Some horses are sent a bit spooky by alcar. Alcar, acetyl L carnetine(NOT L carnetine), by kilo cheapest on eBay.

Thank you, that’s really helpful information. I’ve had a look at forage plus website and it doesn’t seem hugely expensive to buy vitamin e through there.

I’m not fussed about feeding a chaff as it’s generally just a bulker and he doesn’t get a huge feed as only a happy hacker really. He is also not really super keen on chaff either. So would it be suitable to supplement the vitamin e, alcar plus speedibeet and linseed while waiting for test results and go from there?

I’d be keen to try anything that would make him happier, as I’m very aware that it can’t be fantastic feeling so anxious and tense all the time and when he’s in one of his happy warm days, he’s so lovely and seems much happier with life.

 

[ycbm]

I don't believe there is any harm in the diet for non PSSM horses, so I would pout him straight on it. Some pale find vitamin E is enough. It wasn't for either of mine.

Neither of mine were positive for type I, but both improved massively when treated as if they had it, so we assume type II.

 

[paddy555]

for mine the successful regime is alcar, natural vit e, copra, dengie alfalfa pellets, micro linseed, supplement, salt, equishure, constant rugging well over what you would expect to rug. For example tonight mine has a 450g rambo on even though he spends most of the night in his shelter, exercise sheet when ridden and ridden exercise daily.
I could have written a lot of your original post when I started this journey.

In your position I would immediately go for at least 8000iu natural vit e oil a day and lots of rugs and daily slow exercise with an exercise sheet. Vit E oil works quickly, I saw results in a couple of days, horse just became a little nicer and less stressed/uncomfortable. After a week we had real progress. It will give you an idea if you are on the right track.

I can also identify with many of SEL's comments especially the saddle fitting. Once on the road to recovery he completely changed shape and went from a nightmare horse to saddle fit to the easier ever.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

Agreed with the weather thing - mine has been very stressy/emotional today as its raining.

 

[Iwantakitten]

for mine the successful regime is alcar, natural vit e, copra, dengie alfalfa pellets, micro linseed, supplement, salt, equishure, constant rugging well over what you would expect to rug. For example tonight mine has a 450g rambo on even though he spends most of the night in his shelter, exercise sheet when ridden and ridden exercise daily.
I could have written a lot of your original post when I started this journey.

In your position I would immediately go for at least 8000iu natural vit e oil a day and lots of rugs and daily slow exercise with an exercise sheet. Vit E oil works quickly, I saw results in a couple of days, horse just became a little nicer and less stressed/uncomfortable. After a week we had real progress. It will give you an idea if you are on the right track.

I can also identify with many of SEL's comments especially the saddle fitting. Once on the road to recovery he completely changed shape and went from a nightmare horse to saddle fit to the easier ever.

Wow 8000 that sounds like a lot. Can I just buy one of the supplements and whack it in his feed then? I won’t do any harm with this?

I’ve looked at the forage plus version, are there others available? I seem to find a few versions of vit e and selenium, guessing this isn’t suitable?

 

[paddy555]

Wow 8000 that sounds like a lot. Can I just buy one of the supplements and whack it in his feed then? I won’t do any harm with this?

I’ve looked at the forage plus version, are there others available? I seem to find a few versions of vit e and selenium, guessing this isn’t suitable?

8000iu is not a lot for this sort of horse. I use the equimins one. £89 for a litre and works out around £19pm for 8000iu per day. I use 8000 iu in addition to the vit e in his supplement. MIne has been on this level for around 4 years.

You cannot buy a joint version of vit E and selenium combined and then give 8000iu of this per day as the level of selenium will be very dangerous. You need to buy the vit E separately. Just pure vit e. The choices, from people who have made this work, are usually the equimins vit e which is a liquid or forage plus vit E a powder. If you look on the FP site there are articles about PSSM, vit E etc which may help. My horse gets his selenium from his supplement.

I didn't increase the vit E gradually I just bought the equimins one (over the phone, next day delivery) and "whacked it in his feed" It is tasteless.

This is the first thing I would try and keep him extra warm.. I too am in Devon and it has been bliddy cold!

 

[SEL]

we're on 10,000iU a day right now to counter the muscle and liver damage. Its flippin pricey because its the natural rather than synthetic vitamin E that you need. I use Forage Plus and bulk buy when there's a sale on.

Apparently vitamin E deficiency can present like PSSM, so upping it prior to any genetic testing is always a good idea.

Do you know your horse's NF breeding lines? The statement from the society is linked below and they name the stallions they know have it. Obviously it could just as easily be in brood mares, but kudos to them for working so hard to eradicate it.

http://www.newforestpony.com/documents/PSSMSTATEMENTforpublicrelease.pdf

 

[Iwantakitten]

8000iu is not a lot for this sort of horse. I use the equimins one. £89 for a litre and works out around £19pm for 8000iu per day. I use 8000 iu in addition to the vit e in his supplement. MIne has been on this level for around 4 years.

You cannot buy a joint version of vit E and selenium combined and then give 8000iu of this per day as the level of selenium will be very dangerous. You need to buy the vit E separately. Just pure vit e. The choices, from people who have made this work, are usually the equimins vit e which is a liquid or forage plus vit E a powder. If you look on the FP site there are articles about PSSM, vit E etc which may help. My horse gets his selenium from his supplement.

I didn't increase the vit E gradually I just bought the equimins one (over the phone, next day delivery) and "whacked it in his feed" It is tasteless.

This is the first thing I would try and keep him extra warm.. I too am in Devon and it has been bliddy cold!

Perfect thanks for the clarification. I’ll get one ordered.

Yes hopefully improving weather the next few days!

 

[Iwantakitten]

we're on 10,000iU a day right now to counter the muscle and liver damage. Its flippin pricey because its the natural rather than synthetic vitamin E that you need. I use Forage Plus and bulk buy when there's a sale on.

Apparently vitamin E deficiency can present like PSSM, so upping it prior to any genetic testing is always a good idea.

Do you know your horse's NF breeding lines? The statement from the society is linked below and they name the stallions they know have it. Obviously it could just as easily be in brood mares, but kudos to them for working so hard to eradicate it.

http://www.newforestpony.com/documents/PSSMSTATEMENTforpublicrelease.pdf

His dam was NF and she is forest run. Not a lot of info about her. His sire is appy and well bred but the line contains a lot of QH.

 

[Iwantakitten]

A little update: we are a week and a half into the new diet and things are now going well.

First weekend, we had the hot spell and he was very tired and snoozy. Really difficult to get moving forward and puffing easily. Fast forward to this week and he has had a personality transplant. He’s been so happy and cuddly. Coming to see me in the field again, less stressiness, less tension, less back feet snatching, ears pricked forward under saddle. Had a fab lesson this morning where he was really forward and off the leg, engaging behind and really trying. It was so lovely.

I was a little sceptical as the weather has been mostly good, so considered that could be part of it. However, we’ve had a few colder days and one really wet afternoon where he would usually be really tense and grumpy but he was actually pretty calm and friendly.

Onwards and upwards perhaps?

 

[DabDab]

Great news, fingers crossed it's a sign of things to come

This winter has been really pants for pssm horses. Even mine, who I consider to be pretty well managed for it these days, was developing something of a resting b1tch face by the March snow. He was still OK under saddle, but was clearly getting quite peed off with life - stable bandaging at night helped but after a day out in the field his mood would be foul He's back to his bright bubbly self again now, which is a weight off my heartstrings

 

[Leo Walker]

Interestingly I had stopped Leos vitamin e as the grass was growing and I thought he didnt need it. Hes been a bit of a prat. Hes been back on it 4 days and hes back to behaving himself again. He only gets 2000iu of synthetic stuff a day so not loads, but clearly it makes a difference to him. Hes also been getting lot of oil in his diet and the grass in his paddock is now pretty much eaten down.

He was out on good grass for a couple of hours yesterday so will be interesting to see if theres a difference in him today. He certainly doesnt show any major symptoms, but there is clearly something going on. It could also be that hes doing enough work to keep a lid on him now.

 

[SEL]

Mine is finally sound after 10 weeks off, countless vet bills and a lot of stress - so good news all round!

 

[ycbm]

Interestingly I had stopped Leos vitamin e as the grass was growing and I thought he didnt need it. Hes been a bit of a prat. Hes been back on it 4 days and hes back to behaving himself again. He only gets 2000iu of synthetic stuff a day so not loads, but clearly it makes a difference to him. Hes also been getting lot of oil in his diet and the grass in his paddock is now pretty much eaten down.

He was out on good grass for a couple of hours yesterday so will be interesting to see if theres a difference in him today. He certainly doesnt show any major symptoms, but there is clearly something going on. It could also be that hes doing enough work to keep a lid on him now.

I have discovered a direct link with mine between vitamin E level and his stifle sticking when I ask him to pick up his foot. Like you, I thought it was through in the grass and cut him down too early. So I played aground with it for a few days and found I could cause the stifle to lock the day after to little vitamin E. I'm guessing the muscles tighten just enough to stop the ligament from releasing without it being obvious in any other way.

 

[ycbm]

Mine is finally sound after 10 weeks off, countless vet bills and a lot of stress - so good news all round!

Great news.

 

[Leo Walker]

He was foot perfect today. Just over 11kms mainly trotting with a bit of walk and canter and never put a foot wrong. Whatever is going on I'm just going to leave his feed alone from now on!

 

[ycbm]

He was foot perfect today. Just over 11kms mainly trotting with a bit of walk and canter and never put a foot wrong. Whatever is going on I'm just going to leave his feed alone from now on!

I envy you, I'd love to drive my minis but I have blind bends everywhere. Glad it's going well, you need an up!

 

[Carlosmum]

Picking up this thread from a few months ago. I am going to get my NF tested, he has always been very 'lazy' lacking in enthusiasm for most things, nappy, spooky with noises, occasional leaping for no obvious reason and the saddle fitting issues, ( constantly slipping sideways). Been trying to show lately & he can't even maintain a canter all the way around the ring. Having has his back/teeth/saddle sorted we are left with PSSM & blood tests.

Looked his breeding up against the stallions that the NFPBCS had identified & apparently no connection on either his dam or sire side, but I guess that is not conclusive. So am contacting the Society for more info on testing and changing his diet. He is already on Linseed but will look at adding Vit E.