Teaching "long and low"??

[Ginn]

Hope you don't mind me posting this in here but figured it was the best place to get training advice.

Horse is now going off the leg nicely, is getting quite fit and balance has improved no end BUT she is still quite tense through her neck and back and doesn't really "get" stretching through her back (though out hacking she can really swing!!!) but I am trying to now encourage her to take the contact forward and down as she is more like a giraffe than a horse at times. She'll stretch out hacking or in the school once she's been working for a bit but only in walk and we loose the forwardness - its more of a lazy stretch than a working one if that makes sense.

I'm not really too sure how to ask/encourage "long and low" - I don't want to pull her in in anyway as I know she'll offer a rounder shape with correct work and time and she is just starting to do this in the school in walk. Equally I don't want to have a horse running round on the forehand with its nose on the floor but she does need to start taking the contact forward and down, ideally I'd like to aim for her working how the horse is in the pic below:

And this is how she currently goes - you can see the problem...

Any ideas? I am keeping schooling to 1 20 min session following a short hack and 1 lesson a week so exercises I can try out hacking would be useful. I've not really asked her to work long and low, mainly as I don't know how so don't want to create any problems for myself but feel it is time she started to try a bit, especially as her trot is very hollow! I have avoided pulling her "in" as imo she will offer the more collected, rounded frame with time and work so I have been working on her rhythm and her coming through from behind more using my seat and legs and leaving her mouth alone. However, I am especially not too sure what I should be doing with my hands when asking for long and low as I don't want to put her there and end up with her on the forehand - I always try and maintain a consistent elastic contact (i.e. consistent "feel" on the reins rather than what her head is doing), with the exception of allowing her to stretch on a loose rein following some particularly tiring work where she'll pretty much put her nose on the floor for a few strides but we loose all impulsion doing this (eg after a long trot up a steep hill for example, she is allowed to walk on the same contact for a few minutes and then stretch down on a loose contact if she likes for a few minutes).

Eeek, sorry for the ramble

 

[kick_On]

YOU need to go to HJ , we were chatting about her in lorry yesterday......... she'll get you going long and long in flash

 

[Bossanova]

It's not easy in a baby to get long and low in balance.
You need a sense of working to the bit in your normal work- use small flexions to ask her to yield to the hand and when she does, you offer for her to follow the hand as the hand entices her nose forward an inch or so to start.

The process must be very gradual- too much of a dive forwards and she'll be on her forehand and building up bad muscles.

 

[KatB]

It is difficult, and it takes them a long time to balance enough to go long and low. G has only just learnt, and thats from getting a really consistant steady contact, and then him being able to keep that balance and work longer and lower. Boss gives a very good explanation of how to ask for it!!

 

[Ginn]

[ QUOTE ]
YOU need to go to HJ , we were chatting about her in lorry yesterday......... she'll get you going long and long in flash

[/ QUOTE ]

It was that conversation followed by chatting with t'other Sue out hacking this morning that prompted it - she has a new one that was ridden/produced using draw reins and no leg so has been teaching him to take the contact out (like Tilly works almost) and then once she has the legs working properly asking him to soften at the poll and go long and low without changing how his legs are working - anyways, we then got chatting about it which got me thinking (never a good thing really, me, thinking....

)

Going to book in for the HJ rallies on 4th and 18th Sept but no way will I be home in time to go next Thurs

 

[kick_On]

GOOD one

 

[Ginn]

Oh, ok, so basically I need to start asking her to round slightly first and almost work on a bit of collection before encouraging her to stretch out? She will soften at the poll and work really, really nicely in walk with lots of lovely flexion, bending and yeilding after about 20mins of very forward work in the school but won't even consider it out hacking so I wondered if I should get her stretching first before collecting her up. Would things like a minute or two of walk on a long rein (we can do that) with lots of vocal praise inbetween bouts of work be worth doing or not really yet? I know exactly what you mean by putting her on the forhand as its the one thing I am trying to avoid (and as such only ever lunge in an elastic bungee so she can pretty much do as she likes with her head but always has to work with a contact on her mouth).

What would you suggest for building up the topline muscles (gradually) as looking at her neck she is starting to look a bit upside down (more muscle on the underside than the top) and building up her back muscles - her bum is muscling up nicely now but thats about it.

 

[viola]

Here is a method I was taught. First, teach 'chewing from hand' while on the ground: stand in front of her and pull gently on both reins downwards and slightly forwards (so the headpiece applies slight pressure on the poll, the bit goes lower in the mouth and encourages lowering of the head). Do this very slowly and gently, repeat 10-20 times - you should notice that after a few repetitions she starts to incline her head down on a gentle lowering of the bit only. Once she does this well or while she is learning you can add flexions from the ground too. Hold one rein on the contact while applying gentle pressure outwards and towards your ring finger with the other one. Wait until she gives, then give yourself immediately. Flex both ways 10-20 times a day.
Then try from the saddle - your aim is to teach her that lowering of the rein/hand to the below withers area means 'please go low'. The best display of this I saw done by Carl Hester and his young stallion Being Bling. Once the horse lowers the head you make sure the energy (walk) or impulsion (trot) is there but don't go too fast or rush as whole idea is for her to use her whole body. Scratch her withers with inside hand from time to time (without loosing the contact) as that also seem to encourage lowering of the head and relaxation.
(there is an interesting video on this here: How To Train a young horse (Carl Hester) - 8 Parts Video

 

[little_flea]

This article has a section if you scroll down, called "The Rein Aids for the Relaxation of the Jaw" http://sustainabledressage.com/collection/true_collection.php#relax

I think the key is a light hand that never gets static - any take must always be followed by a give. And never in a "sawing" motion. When asking for relaxation with the inside rein, move the hand in a leading motion inwards, never backwards. Inside leg to outside rein.

 

[kerilli]

she needs to learn to go to a light contact first, you are doing it right by not trying to haul her in, but equally, if you don't ask, you usually won't get... very very few horses are built in a natural "on the bit" position. i would play around out hacking on trying to get a light, consistent contact on the inside rein and asking for a little flexion with the outside rein, until she softens, then you soften to reward her.
a good instructor is the best thing, they can advise on what you are both doing at that particular moment.
don't be too afraid of the "on the forehand" feeling, it is a phase that most horses have to go through (according to my trainer), they must learn to step through and lift themselves up off the forehand, it is not something the rider can do for them. once she has learnt to go forward to the hand in walk and to stay in a nice outline, work on it in trot. then, to get long and low, i slightly widen and lower my hands and allow the horse more rein forwards downwards. slight squeezes on the reins can help too.

 

[Ginn]

So basically, there is nothing wrong with where she is now in her training to ask for a better outline and that is the place to start. I'm pleased I posted this now as for some reason (though I have no idea where it came from!) I was always under the impression that you started getting a young horse long and low before collecting them up into an gentle outline!! I am so neurotic about not pulling her in and putting her head in the right place that I now wonder whether I'm actually too soft with my contact in allowing her to stick her head exactly where she wants in and just thinking about the engine but from these replies it looks like I need to ask for her to drop her nose a bit and soften (using lateral work, bending, flexing etc) and get that established - almost work on the relaxation and suppleness through her back, neck and poll than the engine, without loosing too much impulsion??? Or am I miss understanding?

Instructor is very good but works on forwards, forwards and forwards as Tilly went through a slightly nappy/teenage strop phase when we first brought her back into work so hands have only served to indicate direction and bend and have therefore been kept light as I didn't want her thinking backwards in anyway, and everything else has come from my seat and legs - or out hacking my seat as I barely need to use my legs for anything other than yeilding her off the leg and transitions as she is beautifully impulsive anyway hacking (totally different in the school though!! *rollseyes*

I am off on holiday in a fortnight but will be starting lessons with another instructor aswell as current one as we are now a bit more established as I am now finding I need someone to work on my riding as much as getting Tilly forwards and behaving and riding her through her stroppy, how stickable is mum moments!

 

[Booboos]

A young horse may well find it a lot easier to balance with their head in the air and may have a tense back so it really takes time to get them to be able to work long and low. My older horse will work in long and low in walk, trot and canter before he is collected to work properly, then cools down long and low in all three paces to finish off, but my youngster can only balance long and low after he has warmed up. The youngster needs 15 minutes of just going forwards off the leg with a steady, non-interfering hand, then 15 minutes getting him through his back and encouraging him to take the bit, before he can be asked to take the bit forward and low without tipping forwards, so I'd say it's not something that happens easily. It sounds like you are on the right track and doing all the right things!

 

[pocket]

This took Ralph a while to get to grips with and we did it by working on circles, long subtle rein that gives and takes, flexing outwards and some leg yeld inwards and then out, changing the bend using your upper body and not stearing.

 

[kerilli]

OP, don't think of the rein contact as being any hindrance to the forwards-ness of your horse... you ride forward TO the soft, light, elastic rein contact. agree with the point made above, many young horses struggle with their balance when asked for long and low (their head and neck weigh a lot so they can end up running to try to catch up with them, if you see what i mean!) i would try for forward and into a nice light contact and outline, and then when she has the idea of that, think about long and low as a stretching exercise, first of all after work, and eventually before and after. if the horse has been working correctly it will want to stretch down to ease the muscles of its topline.