Technical question - do you think it is possible to change a horse's jumping style?

[kerilli]

There's a very good chance that I'm going to be sent a good friend's horse for a few months to play with and see what I can do. This mare is out of my lovely grey (in siggy) who was a freakishly good jumper and well bred, and is by an Adv/3* stallion... so, the parentage is very good on both sides. However, she's never had the best style (dangly, but tries very hard... gets worried and then gets it all wrong, has been competing up to N level). Oodles of scope and bravery like her mum, but naturally dangly (unlike mum!) and has all the tools in the box I think, but tends to grab a spanner when she needs a hammer!
So, thoughts please. I've never sat on her btw (since my friend lives hundreds of miles away) so really don't know what she'll feel like until I do. My friend has produced to 2* level so is no muppet!
Btw, just in case anyone's worried about my neck (ha), there is absolutely no chance of me jumping fixed fences on this one until I am totally happy with things over show-jumps, if in fact we get that much of an improvement...

 

[crabbymare]

Normally I would say you can improve a horse but the thing with this one is that if she has been with a decent rider who has produced to a good level there may not be a hell of a lot of improvement there. It will be interesting to see what you think when you get her

 

[amage]

To a degree yes but it comes down to the individual horse and their adjustability etc. I would be speaking from a showjumping & racing perspective as opposed to eventing though. Grid work can be key but I personally feel they need plenty of adjustability in their canter and you will still get some who launch higher while leaving their legs still dangling. Loose jumping will be a good way for you to both assess the technique and scope to alter it.

 

[Goldenstar]

I not sure you can change a horses jumping style but I do think some horses can learn to change their style the difficulty is finding the way of challenging the horse safely so it works out there's a better way with out anyone getting hurt !
I am here with one at the moment who really wants to be careful be just does not get it.
Jumping from walk seems to be helping mine at the moment it's raising six and weak so there's hope ( I think) good luck with this one it always fascinates me how they develop technique and how much they all differ.

 

[Chaos]

According to Toddy, no you can't.

How old is she?

I would say you could improve but not change jumping technique. x

 

[be positive]

I would normally say yes you can but usually taking it from a less able rider than your friend, although different style and approach may make a difference it would be her tendency to get worried that may prevent her really changing.

It brought to mind a horse I had in to bring on and sell years ago, it was the most dangly I have ever sat on but was very safe and confident so I did all his schooling over high x poles. The day someone came to try him I schooled him early down a line of very high x poles,when they tried him he jumped well, they loved him. He went to Intermediate in 2 years with them and won or placed in every PN/N he did in the first 2 years, I felt he would never make a safe or careful horse but he proved me wrong although I feel his boldness was key as you could really dare him and he learnt to pick up as time went on.

 

[kerilli]

yes, i'm a big fan of high X poles...
my friend is a very competent rider but she rides very differently to me (more defensive position, more gung-ho attitude) so we'll see if i make any difference at all, or not...
Chaos, she's 9 or 10, which I know is late to try to radically change her style.
apparently loose jumping she's hopeless... so, although i'm hopeful, i'm not expecting miracles. she had a rotational last year so i know what i'm getting into. it's taken a lot for my friend to admit that it's just not going to happen for her with this one.

 

[oldvic]

You can improve a horse's technique but not change it. Dangling can be through lack of confidence or through jumping off the front end so all may not be lost! There have been horses compete to a high level that could be neater but are still safe although I agree that it is not a style I would chose! I'm intrigued as to which stallion it is.

 

[seabsicuit2]

Which stallion is she by?

I guess it would depend on how good her canter is and how much you could change her way of going in canter..

 

[kerilli]

she's by Pembridge Minstrel. The mare was by Skyboy and really was an exceptional jumper in anyone's book, amazing scope and excellent technique, so I find it hard to believe that this one can't jump!
Thanks everyone. it's going to be... interesting. i never had any stickability at all before but a few years of riding nothing but youngsters and other people's v naughty ones has made me a lot more defensive so we'll see!

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

No idea.

But will be very interested in hearing what you try and how you get on if you feel you can share.

 

[TarrSteps]

I'm going to be a sheep on this one and be another who says you can improve but - unless there is something specific that's causing the horse to jump that way which you can address - it's nearly impossible to make a radical, lasting, reliable change.

If she jumps the way she jumps because of the way she's built, then there's not much you can do. If she CAN jump well, but doesn't reliably do so, there might be more scope for change. If the horse "wants" to jump badly though, my experience is they revert under stress, which is in some ways more dangerous than if they just have a funky style but can use if effectively in all situations.

There are lots of ways American Hunter trainers train for form/shape because it's the be all and end all of those classes BUT at least to some extent it's possible because you can control so many variables, even things like how much room you give the horse in front of a fence. No option for that in eventing.

You'll just have to meet her and see.

 

[PaddyMonty]

That fact that you say she gets worried and then messes up gives me more hope that she can be turned around than if you had said she was super confident already.
Building a horses confidence often improves the jump. I've never quite managed to decide if this is due to the improved confidence or the amount of jumping exercises the horse goes through to gain the confidence, probably both.

 

[Goldenstar]

That fact that you say she gets worried and then messes up gives me more hope that she can be turned around than if you had said she was super confident already.
Building a horses confidence often improves the jump. I've never quite managed to decide if this is due to the improved confidence or the amount of jumping exercises the horse goes through to gain the confidence, probably both.

I aggree there has to be more hope with one knows things are a bit wrong but can't work out why than the super bold horse that does not seem to care, but how will age affect the horses ability to change ? It must be easier to change them when younger .

 

[Saratoga]

I think you can improve a horse's technique in front quite a lot, less so with the backend. But in that moment where it all goes wrong in front of a fence and they need to find a 5th leg? I don't think that can be influenced.

A dangly horse in front can always be improved IMO and the way you ride it to a fence will probably differ greatly to one that is neat, but in that moment where you don't have that luxury of influencing them...then it's up to them.

 

[Firewell]

I was at a clinic once and was told by the showjump trainer that a horses jumping style is a horses jumping style. Yes you may be able to work on it a bit but you won't be able to change it totally as that is just the way the horse jumps.
He then went on to mention a top showjump horse (can't remember then name of it, clinic was a while back!) that has a really unorthadox style but always leaves the poles up. He then went on to mention a horse who naturally had a copy book jumping technique since day one.

I thought it was interesting as my horse does not have a copybook jumping style. He is very scopy but he likes to jump quite upright with his head quite high. However he is really neat with his legs and will really snap his front feet and knees up and he is super quick at adjusting himself. If he ever knocks a pole he tends to do it with his hind feet.

We tried V poles and grids and such like but he's a confident chap and didn't really change himself all. We even made the fences really spooky to get him to look at the jump as he went over, he would do it the first time and really bascule and then the 2nd time go back to his normal way.
I would say he is better now he is a bit older and will drop his head and round his back more but he will never have a praying mantis style jump, it's just not him. Like the instructor said though, he is a horse that can jump, he gets his legs out the way and is happy and confident so theres nothing to worry about.

Maybe it is a bit more worrying that this particular horse you mention dangles his legs as that isn't safe for XC but look at Opposition Buzz, dangly legs don't seem to have stopped him! If he was green I would think he just hadn't found his style yet and was baby gangly but sounds like is established and has been ridden by someone really good so maybe he won't change? Maybe he is dangling because he is not confident enough in himself to really use himself?

Interesting, you can but try!

 

[avthechav]

Hi Kerilli,

I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said that your friend has a very different riding style to you. Although Av was only ever jumping up to about 1m due to me being a big fluffy chicken, she went from literally having every single pole down SJ (course putterupper not amused), to jumping clear rounds. Like you said about this horse Av was superbly athletic but had dangly legs. The turning point for me was having lessons with Bill Levett who really got me working on the canter and approach and not being gung ho and giving the horse the chance to learn how to use her whole body properly, even if it meant getting close and Av really having to work to get over. His principle being that if you fire them and they have it down they have long gone by the time they realise what they did wrong, better to give them time to work it out.

Her technique didnt change as such but it was like she suddenly realised how to use her athletisism (sp?) better? It obviously is different for you as you are taling about much bigger jumps and smaller margins of error but principle may be the same? Good luck!

 

[PucciNPoni]

I'm going to be a sheep on this one and be another who says you can improve but - unless there is something specific that's causing the horse to jump that way which you can address - it's nearly impossible to make a radical, lasting, reliable change.

If she jumps the way she jumps because of the way she's built, then there's not much you can do. If she CAN jump well, but doesn't reliably do so, there might be more scope for change. If the horse "wants" to jump badly though, my experience is they revert under stress, which is in some ways more dangerous than if they just have a funky style but can use if effectively in all situations.

There are lots of ways American Hunter trainers train for form/shape because it's the be all and end all of those classes BUT at least to some extent it's possible because you can control so many variables, even things like how much room you give the horse in front of a fence. No option for that in eventing.

You'll just have to meet her and see.

Okay, my 2p worth (which is probably being generous). I think that it depends on why a horse jumps the way it does - my own observation on my horse was that he "couldn't" jump unless it was kangaroo x starfish style - but that had lots to do with his weight/condition and shape of the muscles in his back kept him from creating a bascule shape.

Roll on two years and I was messing about in hand over some small jumps and much to my surprise, he actually jumped correctly. So the next day I sat on board and he DID jump rather than throw himself over. It's not because of my *exceptional* training and riding technique (snigger), but more to do with the fact that two years of correct schooling, strength training and physio have changed his back DRAMATICALLY. I'm not saying he was incorrectly produced before, but perhaps not so condusive to working in a certain way. Now, we'll not be going off hunter trialling or anything, but it just means that we can work over poles without doing any damage to either one of us.

So if it's muscular issue, then yes I do think so.

 

[TarrSteps]

That's a bit the difference between conformation and development, though. If a horse cannot makes its bones work differently, then there's not much you can do. If the bones CAN do a good job but are not for some reason (being taught/learning incorrectly, discomfort etc.) then that's a different situation. Being overweight, using the back incorrectly/being weak in the back etc are all very known reasons for a horse not jumping well (especially if it learned to jump under saddle that way) and fixable with time and patience. I've seen horses radically improve with a different saddle. Technically that's not "improving" a horse, it's just putting it back the way it should be.

Actually, I was going to add the qualifier I think that's the case in MANY cases of bad jumpers. It is quite easy to "teach" a horse to jump in a way that's not optimally natural to it by making it "less" than it could be, especially since in the vast majority of cases we are not using anything close to the horse's scope. (The catch is if the horse learns "wrong" when it doesn't matter because the jumps are small, depending on what's going on, it won't necessarily magically do all the right things when the jumps get bigger.)

I think this explains at least some of the cases of horse that are very average and then suddenly someone seems to work a miracle. (Not as above, with a lot of hard work and attention to detail, but those horses that are average with one rider and then seemingly display a hidden talent with another. That's the point, the talent was hidden.) I've always found it really interesting to watch free jumping competitions/auctions. The vast majority or horses jump pretty well, with a fair number of obviously talented ones. Okay, jumping loose is not the same as jumping under saddle but if a horse shows a drastic loss of form then surely the question is why? If a horse CAN jump well and doesn't, that's a different question.

Of course some don't free jump well. Sometimes that's just how they are, but then it's possible to free jump horses badly, too! And, as they say, you never get a second chance to make a first impression so if they get the wrong idea it can be tricky to change it. Often what people are looking with free jumping anyway, for is how the horse learns, what it is capable of, not necessarily what it does every time. I have to say I've never seen a horse show a great talent that didn't show a glimmer of it young, but I've seen lots that looked average or worse further on in their training then improved.

Carefullness (allergic to wood) and the horse "thinking with its feet" are different matters. The former is usually intrinsic to the horse, the latter is often learned in foal-hood so not something people think is "taught". A horse that wants to jump clean may continue to do so with all sorts of obstacles - including soundness and lousy riding - but one that doesn't might tap poles out if it's even a millimeter out. Some horses don't jump particularly well in their mechanics (either naturally or through training) but really, really, really want to leave them up, other can jump well and do so naturally but can't be asked if things get very sticky. And some careful horses are SO careful that their anxiety actually interferes with their ability to jump well (or jump at all as super careful horses often have a stop in them if things aren't going pretty much spot on).

The problem is in the OP's case is the job the horse is for. It may very well be "less" than it should be and very fixable, but the concerns people have expressed (including the OP) is that inclination to return to natural form when the chips are down. If she has to think every time about bringing her legs up, jumping above Novice is going to be a bit anxious!

 

[mystiandsunny]

I've a pony whose jumping style used to be like superman - both legs out front as if she was trying to fly. That did make jumping rather 'interesting'! She figured out for herself, watching other horses and as the jumps got bigger and her style became rather inconvenient, what to do - and now folds in front like any other horse. As a consequence she's now bold and can't get enough of it! So her jumping style changed rather dramatically - if that gives you any hope?

I would say though that breeding isn't everything. The above pony has impeccable dressage breeding - but would much rather hack and jump thank you very much. The movement is there for dressage, the ability to absorb training is present, but she just doesn't really enjoy it, so gets stressed and doesn't do half as well as horses/ponies with none of the breeding but who want to do it and find the whole thing relaxing and fun.