Tell Me About Permanent Loans, Please?

[Orca]

Some of you might remember my recent WWYD about my health and Orca.

I have advertised her for loan and unsurprisingly, more people seem interested in buying or permanent loan, than loaning.

I won't sell her (thanks to the great advice given previously) but I would like to know more about permanent loans. I'm not sure I'm ready to make that commitment, however, should the right person come along I might consider it.

It feels like a big step though, so, I guess I'd just like to talk it over with people who have done it?

 

[gothdolly]

My permanent loan agreement when I loaned out my outgrown childhood pony back to her old owner was that I would not be able to take her back on a whim, but would be able to take her back if there was evidence of neglect or if her loaner's circumstances changed and she was unable or unwilling to care for her. I still went to check on her but this dropped to annually when she was settled, and she did come back to me after 8 years for the rest of her life as it happened.

 

[Clannad48]

I put my daughter's pony out on permanent semi-retirement loan to a good friend of mine 9 years ago. Sadly my friend died suddenly in July last year and we took the pony back (now aged 24) yes it is tight financially but the pony owes me nothing, she will stay with us until the end, as loved and as cared for as she was with my friend.

Initially we did go and visit every month but my daughter got too upset whenever we left, the pony had a 5* home and the visits dropped off to yearly, although telephone contact was frequent and updates received all the time.

 

[Orca]

Thank you both. I'm not worried about having her back in the future but more that this is a too final a step. Just a few days ago, I was considering giving her away (for her own benefit) but I do realise I need her in my life (and that I should remain in hers at least in some way!). Maybe a year long loan with a view to extending (or returning, whichever is appropriate at the time), might be a good way forwards? At least that way, I can ensure she is with the right people and ease my way into committing to a longer term loan.

 

[Orca]

My sympathies with regard to the loss of your friend, Clannad 48.

 

[gothdolly]

I wish I had a magic wand to make things easier for you, Orca I think permanent loan sounds too final at the moment for you too, I hope a local loan or share can be found.

 

[rowan666]

My old fella is out on permanent loan, I actively do not ever want him back (he walks through fences like paper!) but he will always have a place with me should his loaners circumstances ever change, he is in his 20s and I would not risk him being passed on despite his loaner offering to buy him i would never sell him, his previous loaner was supposed to be permanent and at one point did consider signing him over to her but something stopped me and a few months later her circumstances did change and she brought him back (an hour after she rang me lol) i love getting updates from his loaner and going to visit that I probobly wouldn't get if I didn't still technically own him, although I must admit every time she rings me there's a little voice in my head screaming "please don't send him back!"

 

[Orca]

I wish I had a magic wand to make things easier for you, Orca I think permanent loan sounds too final at the moment for you too, I hope a local loan or share can be found.

Thank you, gothdolly. I really do appreciate the advice and support you've given throughout my posts on this subject.

My old fella is out on permanent loan, I actively do not ever want him back (he walks through fences like paper!) but he will always have a place with me should his loaners circumstances ever change, he is in his 20s and I would not risk him being passed on despite his loaner offering to buy him i would never sell him, his previous loaner was supposed to be permanent and at one point did consider signing him over to her but something stopped me and a few months later her circumstances did change and she brought him back (an hour after she rang me lol) i love getting updates from his loaner and going to visit that I probobly wouldn't get if I didn't still technically own him, although I must admit every time she rings me there's a little voice in my head screaming "please don't send him back!"

If I had cause to want her out of my hair it probably would make this decision somewhat easier!

What sort of questions did you all ask your loanees? I do go a lot by instinct and I will know almost instantly if someone suits Orca when I see them with her but gut feelings aside, what should be on my list? So far, I have:

Where they would like to keep her (livery/ home/ stabled/ out).
Specifically where and are they agreeable to me home checking.
What their experience level is (and breaking experience).
What they would intend to do with her.

I'd need to see them handle and ride (particularly keeping in mind that Orca is backed, not fully broken).
See their current horses (if any).
Ask for references/ vet details/ livery owner details?

So many horror stories around! I suppose another benefit of loaning locally or at least within an hours radius, is that everyone knows everyone in the horse world. So although I know very few horsey people here, it shouldn't be too hard to find out a little about potential people if I put feelers out?

 

[conniegirl]

If this was 6 months in the future I'd of jumped at the chance but I can't afford the livery bill for 2 at the moment

I would say that as your loaner will need to break her you will need to offer more than 1 year, maybe 5years and then have a view to extend if you health has not improved

 

[ihatework]

Personally I think the term permenant and loan are contradictory. Either someone has bought the horse and its theirs or they are loaning it and the horse can come back.

I own a horse that is out on loan. I was clear when loaning him out I wanted a long term arrangement/permenant arrangement. However ultimately he is still mine. I don't want him back, but there will always be the chance the loaner might need to send him back and Id always want the authority to be able to take him if the need arose too. That is why it's a loan.

Whatever you do make sure you have a contract with clear expectations set out.

 

[Orca]

If this was 6 months in the future I'd of jumped at the chance but I can't afford the livery bill for 2 at the moment

I would say that as your loaner will need to break her you will need to offer more than 1 year, maybe 5years and then have a view to extend if you health has not improved

Thank you. This is the issue I see too (part broken v loan length). I had fully intended to do her myself and as someone said on the other thread, because she's progressed so well and easily so far, she is likely to be riding away very soon. I am going to continue working with her until the right person comes along if possible but I can understand why a longer term loan might appeal to most people.

This brings me back to the prospect of working for another couple of weeks with her, then turning her away for the summer! Although the issue with that is that she might then be even less desirable to people if my health does continue to spiral and I can't bring her back into work.

Personally I think the term permenant and loan are contradictory. Either someone has bought the horse and its theirs or they are loaning it and the horse can come back.

I own a horse that is out on loan. I was clear when loaning him out I wanted a long term arrangement/permenant arrangement. However ultimately he is still mine. I don't want him back, but there will always be the chance the loaner might need to send him back and Id always want the authority to be able to take him if the need arose too. That is why it's a loan.

Whatever you do make sure you have a contract with clear expectations set out.

Thanks, you've hit the nail on the head. Essentially a permanent loan is giving her away for good and I'm not sure I'm ready for that at this point. I know I'd retain overall say in her future and wellbeing (which is important) but I'm not sure that's enough for me at this point in time. A medium-long loan term might be a good way forwards, as conniegirl suggests.

I will definitely have a contract in place, whatever happens next.

Thanks all.

 

[pennyturner]

I have two ponies who came to me on permanent loan: Bruin the Shetland is now 'mine' - his owner phoned me about 5 years in, and asked if I minded taking ownership. I've had him nearly 15 years now! Danny the New Forest came to me aged 9. He's now about 20, and will stay with me for the rest of his life.

I also have one who I thought was a loan, but only found out later was actually a gift; not that it makes any difference. 15 years on, said pony is now 30, and going nowhere.

The only difference in my mind is that if I need to cut down numbers, they're the ones I can't sell... which I think was the point, but given how bad I am at letting go of my furry friends, it makes no practical difference, but provides peace of mind to the owner.

 

[Orca]

I have two ponies who came to me on permanent loan: Bruin the Shetland is now 'mine' - his owner phoned me about 5 years in, and asked if I minded taking ownership. I've had him nearly 15 years now! Danny the New Forest came to me aged 9. He's now about 20, and will stay with me for the rest of his life.

I also have one who I thought was a loan, but only found out later was actually a gift; not that it makes any difference. 15 years on, said pony is now 30, and going nowhere.

The only difference in my mind is that if I need to cut down numbers, they're the ones I can't sell... which I think was the point, but given how bad I am at letting go of my furry friends, it makes no practical difference, but provides peace of mind to the owner.

Thanks. At least a permanent loan secures her future one way or another, as far as is possible. Lots more thinking for me to do!

 

[Clannad48]

Regarding the comment about 'permanent' and 'loan' being contradictory, I sort of agree with this, however with the pony being 'on loan' it means that the pony cannot be legally sold on without my consent - and yes I realise that this does happen sometimes. I wanted to know that if anything happened the pony would come back to me and live out her days as I wanted, not sold on and on.

For me when we were looking to loan the pony out we had lots of interest (she was a well know showjumper who won everything she entered and had done for the previous 10 years) mostly from those people who wanted to win at all costs - I ended up going with a 'gut feeling' about a prospective loaner who looked good on paper and had come recommended by a pony club instructor. I did not realise until later that the person who ended up loaning her was a good friend who I trusted implicitly.

If it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't, I agree with your idea of being extremely picky, any 'good' prospective loaner will probably appreciate the concern you show and will not balk at you visiting as and when you want.

Good luck with your search, there are extremely good loaners out there, you just have to be cautious.

 

[Red-1]

To me permanent loan means you can't have the horse back unless the loanee does something against whatever agreement you have. On the plus side it means they can't sell her, and have to comply with whatever agreement you have. Essentially though, if your health improves again, you have lost the horse, who, it sounds, would be a good horse for you.

To me it sounds more like you need a loan that is a bit more flexible than that.

As it is your health rather than finance that leads you to change the current situation, and as the horse does need bringing on, maybe a loan where you contribute something towards the finance, and are still able to have time with the horse?

I am thinking more like role reversal, where you are essentially the "sharer" and pay a contribution, while the other person takes on the day to day responsibility, and sorts everything out?

I know when I needed to re-home my last horse it seemed like a tall order, but by activating the grapevine a fine home was found.

Alternatively, I don't think she would mind at all being turned away for the summer, at the end of which if you are not able to re-start she could go to a pro for riding away, and be permanently loaned then.

Best wishes for improved health.

 

[southerncomfort]

I once took a horse on 'permanent loan' but in all honesty the agreement did not differ in any way at all from a regular loan. We just used the bog standard BHS loan agreement with all the usual caveats and the owner could still have taken the horse back at any point.

I can see how it works for the owners, and also for some loaners, however in the end I found it difficult to come to terms with the fact that the horse would never be mine and that the owner still had final say over certain aspects of the horse's day to day care.

So it didn't really work for me and I'm not sure that 'permanent loan' actually really exists but maybe their are better agreements/contracts out there.

 

[Silmarillion]

I have one on "long term loan". To me this means that I wouldn't expect the owner to want him back just because (though if one of us broke the loan contract that would be different), and equally I have every intention of keeping him to the end of his days unless something drastic happens. He's with me for his semi-retirement as he's got an old injury, and both he and I are happy hackers, so if he became unrideable then this is probably when I would consider invoking the "loan" part of the contract and returning him (I can't afford to keep a broken horse). As long as he fulfils my needs, which were made clear when I took him on, then he's with me.
Equally I know that even if my needs change and I decide I want to compete or do more, I will always put my loan horse first and if I can't afford a second horse to compete, then I won't send him back. I've committed to him - whereas if he was "just" on loan then I'd send him back and move on with my life.
To me it's having a horse of my own, except I don't have the final say with him (and I also don't pay his on-going medication costs - his owner covers this and it's a reason I would never be able to buy him). It's also quite reassuring as I have someone knowledgable and practical to turn to, to help me decide what to do with him e.g. getting the physio out to see his bad back if it gets worse, etc!
For me (and I think for his owner) it works very nicely.

 

[Luci07]

Permanent means just that. You have given the horse away. Perhaps it would be a better idea to finish off her backing and then let her have the summer off or a period of time for you to gauge how you feel health wise. Perhaps you might be able to cope with a sharer? If you do loan, then as well as the other advice, I would suggest you stipulate that references from someone such as vet or farrier would be required. This is to ensure you don't lose your mare to a chancer who sells her on. Anyone who has had horses and is experienced enough to bring on a green horse will be known to a local vet.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

My Welsh D mare came on loan initially, then ended up staying!! Both the owner and I know each other very well (we went to school together!), and we're only 20 mins drive away from each other so she can pop over any time there's something that needs sorting.

After a few years of Mare being here, her owner gave her to me as a formal Gift............ I was gobsmacked, because this mare is a very special person indeed and I know that this would not have been an easy decision. But now she is officially "my" horse and I am on her passport as the Owner; not that I needed that aspect to be formalised at all, it just felt right for everyone involved for this step to be taken.

The key in a situation like this is TRUST and COMMUNICATION, and openness and honesty. If something happened that I could no longer keep Mare, and/or for whatever reason it was an obviously right choice for her to go back to my friend (for instance if she was the only horse on the place, which would make her miserable), then we could both consider and discuss that. She is a veteran now, and has an ongoing lameness issue, and we have discussed and considered treatment options, shoeing, vets etc., and have made decisions together, and will continue to do so right up until PTS stage, whenever that is in the future.

So "permanent loans" can and do work; but I realise our situation is very special, we've known each other since schooldays and that counts for a lot, plus as we've continued to live in the local area know friends-of-friends as well.

 

[Orca]

See, I do want what's best for my girl. If a loanee took her on who I felt was making her happy, keeping her healthy and enjoying her for everything she is, I would probably gift her to them at some future date but to make that commitment at the outset, I feel is too huge.

The issue with turning her away is that should my health continue to spiral, I won't be in a position to bring her back into work - and nor will I be in a position to pay for pro backing. My illness is already affecting my ability to work (and so obviously, to earn).

Thank you for all of the thoughts and ideas. I really do appreciate all input. I love your loan/ share structure idea Red-1! In an ideal world, that would be the perfect scenario.

 

[essex_rider]

We loaned a pony when i was 8yrs old, she was 16, and we had her for a further 16 years. That was what i would call a permanent loan. We made all decisions about her, paid for everything etc and she was ours for all intents and purposes. We loaned her to other children when i grew out of her, but always from our own yard. The owner didn't visit often at all, i think it was 5yrs she hadn't seen her for before she came to see her before she was PTS, but we were both happy with that arrangement and there was a clause in the loan docs to say if there was ever a time we couldn't look after her we had to give her back - which would have seemed obvious to us!
We have also put ponies/horses out on long term loan. One, has been out now for a good 10yrs. He was mums since he was a foal, so would never be sold, and we trut the people who he is with, and to be honest we don't see him very often at all.
Another we had out on loan, a pony, the loanees were so scared we would take him back at some point they begged us to sell him to them. This was fine with us and he lived a long and happy life.
To be honest we have been very lucky with loans, both loaning and being loaners, and nowadays it is hard to trust people with horses what with all the sold whilst on loan stories, but long term loans can work really well, and gave us as a family huge oppertunities!

 

[Orca]

Thank you. After an initial flurry of interest and one couple who sounded ideal - but who did want a permanent loan (which I'm not ready for just yet!), things have gone quiet. Her ad hasn't gone up on horses4homes yet, so hopefully that might raise some interest and I'll keep working with her in the meantime, ready for a loan or turning away, if necessary. To be honest, if we crack on then she could easily be gently hacking out in a week or two and that will at least start to give her more homing options/ an easier return to work if I'm well enough to bring her back.

Thanks for all of the permanent loan experiences. I don't think it's the right option for us at the moment but it is good to hear so many positive stories, in case I do decide it's right for us at some point in the future.

 

[gothdolly]

If she is hacking out nicely then you have a much better chance of a loan to stay her current yard. Good luck x

 

[wills_91]

Get scouring the wanted adds. Tell your vet,farrier,local tack shop etc . I found one of mine from placing a wanted add & it's where I found a loan home for 2 shetlands last year - they are away having a ball and being totally spoilt and the best bit was I didn't have any time wasters!
If you've got a local PC or RC maybe approach them? There might be a really keen/competent teen local to you that could take a loan/share type arrangement - I did this when I was 14 took a youngster on loan had great fun getting her going and learned loads along the way.

 

[Orca]

Thanks. I have been checking them daily, in case the right ad popped up and I'll keep looking. Unsurprisingly, most of them start with "Wanted! Bomproof hack..." I have no doubt she will be a bombproof hack soon but she's not going to be a novice ride for a while!

I have received a message from an interested party, not too far from me. I'm hoping to learn more about them when we speak tomorrow but their breaking experience and ethos sound good. Fingers crossed! And should that be a no go for any reason, I'll try your other ideas. They all sound promising, thank you.