Temperament change in Mare after Foaling

[Workspace]

Hi, I am looking for advice please (apologies for the long story but all will become clear) :-

I purchased a mare in May which had the ideal temperament, very docile, willing to please, excellent out hacking, in fact everything me and my two daughters were looking for. I had a pre-purchase examination and the vet confirmed all okay (he also stated that she had had a foal in the past but couldn't say when). Well, it our dismay, we had a phone call two weeks ago to say that she had given birth to a stillborn foal. It was a terrable situation to go through but the only good news for us was that she was okay (by the way she is a haflinger and loves her food and was round or so we thought due to this!). She was excactly as advertised and more - a real real sweetie nothing phasing her at all in any circumstance.

She seems to have recovered well from this upset except that her temperament is not what is was before the birth. I am a nervous rider and she instiled confidence in me because of her laid back attitude. Now two weeks after her stillborn birth she has changed on the roads and when out hacking and I wondererd if anyone knows why or could suggest maybe why she is now like this.

An example is that yesterday out hacking with three other horses (my daughter of 15 who is a good rider was riding her). She just backed out onto the road and wouldn't got forward. She was the third horse from the front and they were riding on the pavement as it was a fairly busy road (my daughter had done this hack once before with no problems about a month before the stillbirth) She did this while traffic was trying to pass by and fortunately no accident occurred due to a switched on motorist. We all even said it was unlike her and couldn't see that anything bought it on. On the way back we went down a narrow road she began slipping on the road and being very flighty and we even had to lead her along as she seemed to dangerous to ride, spooking at nothing and becoming very nervious. Again before the stillbirth she was fine even if horses walked off and left her or if we overtook them etc. Once back on the bridle path my daughter got back on while the other horses waited but she was just as bad, even prancing on the spot. I told my daughter to get off as it looked like she was going to rear.

About three days before this she did the same on a different road with one other horse in front and narrowly missed colliding with a bus, I blamed the bus at the time because we knew she wasn't like that but looking back now realise this was the start of it. The vet had said to us that she will be back to normal after about 7-12 days of the birth, is this the normal pony now?

As said above, I wanted a pony that would help with my confidence but since this unexpected birth she had changed completely. I have the option of giving her back to the seller as she had said when we first purchased her that she will take her back if anything happened (I think she would have to even more so now due to the circumstances!). The problem I have is do I give her back or spend time/money on a more expereniced person sorting this behaviour out. If they sort it out I still feel that she may not do it with them but with us, I have lost the trust we had in her before the birth.

Any opinion or views would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Hoofprints in the Snow]

Could it be that she hasn't had time to recover properly yet, and also her hormones to settle down. I'd put your post in the breeding section, people on there may be more able to help.

 

[AmyMay]

How soon did you get back on her after the stillbirth?

 

[whisp&willow]

sorry to hear about your mare. what a terrible thing to have gone through.

i know that some mares do change after foaling- mainly grumpy and not too happy about you being near the foal, but have no experience in the matter. my mare never changed after foaling, much to my relief.

when did she give birth?? was it only two weeks ago?? if so then she may well be uncomfortable being ridden, as although still-born, her muscles and internal organs will have been jiggled about and stretched.

i would not be riding this mare at the moment- she still needs to recover from giving birth!

did you leave the dead foal with her until she accepted it was gone?

you may have more luck if you post this in the breeding section-

i wish you luck, and hope that you get some good advice, and are able to overcome these issues.

x

 

[burge]

I know years ago it used to be normal practice to put a mare with an iffy temperament in foal as it would settle them down. It was also an old dealers trick also to pass one on with an iffy temperament. While mare was in foal temperament was ok but no guarantee it would stay that way once foaled. This happened to a friend of mine who bought a young TB mare with the most lovely temperament. After her 'surprise' foal she wasn't too bad but nothing like she had been while in foal. You may have been 'done' I'm afraid. Have you been in touch with the people you bought her off??

 

[Workspace]

Hi, ta for replying. we were told by the vet that came to examine her after the birth that to give it a week and she will be okay to ride. Also rang them up again to get advice (as friends/people said different things) and spoke to a reproduction vet who said the best thing for her is to ride her at walk and trot after the week as this will help get things inside back to normal and any discharge etc would be released rather than building up and causing an infection. This is what we did, just took it very slowly as recommended by the vet. As we had never dealt with this sort of thing we wanted to get it right. Sorry should of maybe mentioned this at start.

 

[Workspace]

Hi please see my reply to 'lost'. This will explain.

 

[whisp&willow]

well i completely disagree with the advice given by your vet. (im sorry!)

i would give the mare at least four weeks off before bringing her back into light work.

there are a few interesting threads about this topic in the breeding section, which may be of interest to you.

just because she has no foal at foot doesnt make a difference. infact i would say it probably takes longer to get over both the physical and emotional strains.

 

[haras]

Sorry to hear that her foal was stillborn

I think you are asking too much of her, too soon.

2 weeks is very soon to be riding her. I think giving her 6-8 weeks off would do her good tbh. Give her body a chance to get back to normal, and let all the muscles that had to go lax for the birth, time to strengthen again. I think she is trying to tell you she is uncomfortable/ in pain.

Is her udder all dried up? As others have said, her hormones will still be all over the place. Give her a chance before making any conclusions about her temperment.

 

[Workspace]

Hi yes I have heard of this and this is what went through my mind the day it happened. The lady I got her from was an honest person and a lone dealer in haflinger just starting up and I couldn't believe that she would do this. I rang her up and she was as shocked as me, and as she only had her two months before we had her and showed no signs of it said she would investigate with the people she knew in Belgium where she came from. She got back to us to say that the farm she was on had some stallions in the next farm and a coloured cob did use to break out - so this is what happened.

 

[AmyMay]

I think you've been given extremely poor advice.

I would re-post this in Breeding for more experienced breeding posters, but I think she's been ridden far too quickly.

My feeling is that this mare needs a lot longer to get over her pregnancy before she begins work.

 

[Spring Feather]

I'm not sure what your vet is thinking by encouraging you to ride the mare this soon after foaling The foal may have been stillborn but she still gave birth to it. We never bring any mares back into work this soon after giving birth and it's unethical with many breeders to do so. Your vet is right that movement helps the mare expel fluid/tissue but that is usually in the form of the mare wandering around her field. Some mares can be deeply affected by the loss of their foal and do take time to recover. If she were mine I wouldn't be considering riding her for at least 2 months after the date she gave birth.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I have no experience of this, but as she has had a traumatic experience, and is now being difficult when she was good before, I would give her 6 weeks off, but handle her regularly, so she gets her trust in you. Best if she can go out with others, but I would not put her in a field with a mare and foal!

 

[Workspace]

I thought all of your reasons too before speaking to the vet, I'm sure they would grieve and feel exactly the same as us but went to them because they were a professional body. I am now more confused but did hear that mares can be very docile and placid when pregnant and then revert after giving birth. I just want the best for her and don't want to rush anything at all but was just going on the advice given. I feel I am in a situation which I didn't want or need and I know nothing so went on here to try and get some sense of it.

 

[BonneMaman]

I have to agree that you have not given her enough time off yet. You didn't say whether or not the foal was a foetus or a fully formed foal. It would make a massive difference if the foaling was more of a miscarriage rather than a stillbirth.

Haved you spoken to her previous owners?

 

[Workspace]

I think you've been given extremely poor advice.

I would re-post this in Breeding for more experienced breeding posters, but I think she's been ridden far too quickly.

My feeling is that this mare needs a lot longer to get over her pregnancy before she begins work.

Looking back I think I was given extremely poor advice from the start. I rang round various vets explaining that I had never bought a horse before and what is involved in the pre-purchase exam, never believing that they would not be able to tell that a mare is not fat but pregnant! She would have been about 9 months pregnant as the vet said the foal was very nearly full term. That I cannot get my head round, quoting the vet on the pre-purchase 'she has had a foal in the past but can't say when'!!!!!

The thought never entered my head that she could be pregnant, I just assumed that it was checked because of what he said and also that it was a routine thing to check anyway. But no it isn't. Now people are telling me that we shouldn't be riding her. I thought if she was feeding the foal etc it would be wise not to ride her under those circusmtances but getting advice from the vet to gently ride after a week would be better for her. Now it seems not.

 

[AmyMay]

Ah, well - we live and learn.

As I said - pop a post in Breeders, and you'll get some excellent advice from there on how best now to proceed with your mare, and how to re-introduce ridden work.

Good luck with her.

 

[Maesfen]

I agree totally with Spring Feather and the others that have said you've been poorly advised; very poorly advised in my view and the mare should have been allowed much more time to get over this. I'm the last person to namby pamby something but in these circumstances I'm actually quite shocked at your vets, even the repro one.
Was the mare allowed to grieve at all with the foal's body or was it whipped away before she could blink as horses need to grieve in their own time just like us to make sense of what's happened to them. For many mares that have lost foals, this could range from hours to several days and it's very unfair to push them before they are ready.

 

[Workspace]

Thank you for your advice - we did question it but thought they are more experienced as it was an equine vet too. Hope we haven't done any long term harm both mentally and physcially for her. I wrote to the pre-purchase vet about this situation and still haven't received a reply as I had put my faith in their so called 'experience'

 

[Spring Feather]

Looking back I think I was given extremely poor advice from the start. I rang round various vets explaining that I had never bought a horse before and what is involved in the pre-purchase exam, never believing that they would not be able to tell that a mare is not fat but pregnant! She would have been about 9 months pregnant as the vet said the foal was very nearly full term. That I cannot get my head round, quoting the vet on the pre-purchase 'she has had a foal in the past but can't say when'!!!!!

Often, unless you know the mare well, it is impossible to tell if a mare is pregnant just by looking at her so I don't think the vetting vet did anything wrong here. A PPE does not normally include a preg check unless the buyer asks specifically for bloods to be taken or palpated to check for pregnancy but even then vets are not infallible and can miss a pregnancy.

The thought never entered my head that she could be pregnant, I just assumed that it was checked because of what he said and also that it was a routine thing to check anyway. But no it isn't.

These days I think it wise for anyone buying a mare from unknown sellers to have bloods taken and preg checked. This seems to be happening more and more, or we are just more aware of it with the internet as it is nowadays. No-one is to blame here, it's just circumstances. Give your mare a little more time to re-adjust and see how she's doing in a month or so

 

[Workspace]

She was left with the foal, standing over it for quite a while, pacing round the filed but always going back to it for poss 4-5 hours and then we led her away and removed it without her seeing. The horses she was with were in another field. We then let her out back to the same field and she went back to where it was for a while pacing about again and then whinnered and cantered to the other horses and asking to go in with them.

 

[rolsterlady]

Don't have much advise but some mares do behave differently when in foal. I bought a 4yo unbroken mare 5 years ago. Cut a long story very short, we started to break her and she was a dream... so chilled out and nothing phased her. We then found out we had bought her in foal without knowing.

So, she had the foal and once the foal was weaned we re-broke my mare.. she was a different horse! Not the chilled out one she used to be.. and she's been hard work. She's a very good girl now at the age of 9 but still has her moments, she is definitely not a novice ride.

Like people have said, it may be a hormone inbalance after the stillbirth, but it may just be that her hormones were keeping her quiet whilst she was in foal, and that this is her actual temperament.

Good luck whatever you decide to do!

 

[Workspace]

I think the British Veterinary Association has to take some blame here as the vet's internet site said they follow the stand format of pre-purchase examiantions laid down by them. I was grieved myself to think that we could have saved that life, a life is previous and a gift and a simple test included in the exam would have 1) saved his poor foal and 2) stopped me from buying her (the owner said she would have kept her had she known) and having to deal with all this being inexperienced and also the trauma the situation has caused.

I will be writing to them asking why this is not done as routine.

 

[AmyMay]

If the mare aborted at 9 months, and had had no inidcation of being unwell prior to that - then chances are nothing would have prevented the stillbirth.

I'm not sure why the BVA are to blame in any way. Life throws a curved ball sometimes, and that is what this is.

So your choices are now to either ensure you do what is best for the mare by giving her the proper period of recuperation - and move on, or return her to the seller and ask for a refund.

 

[Workspace]

Often, unless you know the mare well, it is impossible to tell if a mare is pregnant just by looking at her so I don't think the vetting vet did anything wrong here. A PPE does not normally include a preg check unless the buyer asks specifically for bloods to be taken or palpated to check for pregnancy but even then vets are not infallible and can miss a pregnancy.

If that is the case surely the 'experienced' bodies that be ie. British Veterinary Association or likewise should make this compulsory to stop all this, people will pay for it. I would have paid for it had the thought been put into my head but when I enquired about the examination they went on about the blood test option and storing for future (which incidentally I did) and how much they would be. Surely it would have been better to suggest a pregnancy test as well, they would have been used to this sort of thing happending as people say this happens all the time. I am new to this and find it so hard to believe that nothing has been done about it. It's such a waste of a life which could easily have been prevented. The seller is now paranoid of this happening again she does actually get her mares for sale now tested. She didn't before because she was trying to keep the costs down and has recently sold a mare that she tested so at least something good has come out of it I suppose.

 

[madlady]

Has the mare been checked for mastitis? Has her milk gone back? Did she have any milk in the first place?

Like the others have said I would give her some more R&R, let her recover and then see how she is.

 

[Spring Feather]

I will be writing to them asking why this is not done as routine.

The onus is on you as the buyer to specifically ask for what you want out of a PPE. For example, I am a breeder and when I buy new mares I do have them preg checked as it is imperative for me to know that the mare is not carrying a foal (unless I buy her in the knowledge, complete with documentation, that she has been bred to a stallion which follows my breeding plan). 2-stage or 5-stage PPEs are uniform. If you want something which is not standard then you as a responsible buyer have to ask for it. I am sorry you are in this situation but I do not believe any blame should be laid at the PPE vets door. He told you what he saw and he followed the standards for a regular PPE.

 

[Workspace]

Surely you treat a mare in foal differently to one that isnt in respect of riding and so forth, ie. worming and things like that. If it was stillbirth it could of been because she was treated as if she wasn't in foal. If women are pregnant they are treated differently and I said BVA should take some blame as they are the ones that lay down formats and regulations to follow so they do have a valid say on how things should be done. Thanks for your advice and will take time to consider the next step.

 

[AmyMay]

Surely it would have been better to suggest a pregnancy test as well, they would have been used to this sort of thing happending as people say this happens all the time.

I don't disagree that it might be a good idea for vets to suggest or even recommend a pregnancy test, but as it's not a mandatory part of the PPE then neither the vet nor the BVA can be held liable in any way.

As for it happening all the time, no I don't think it does.

From the sellers point of view, I would think that it be would be very good practice for her to have all mare purchases screened for pregnancy - and the price to her would actually be minimal, and count as part of her business costs.

As for a waste of a life, as I said before, it was probably unpreventable - and I suppose now at least you don't have the further complication of a mare and foal (however upsetting the whole scenario has been).

 

[AmyMay]

Surely you treat a mare in foal differently to one that isnt in respect of riding and so forth, ie. worming and things like that. If it was stillbirth it could of been because she was treated as if she wasn't in foal.

Worming routine would be exactly the same - and horses are actually pretty robust animals - if a pregnancy is 'good' chances are it will stay - regardless of what the mare goes through. You don't sound like the type of rider that was galloping the socks off her every day, and I imagine she's had a rather sedate time with you. So I would be reassured that nothing you have done caused the loss of the foal.