Tendon - is it better to?

[TandD]

Is it better to keep the tendon cold during exercise....I.e. Using those boots with breathable holes.....like premier equine (I think ) make to keep that area colder......

or is it better to warm the area up and stretch the tendon during 'warm up', with possibly wearing support bandages when working? When I saw warm it up I don't just mean during a warm up....but actually use a heat pack before I get on. ( I will then obviously warm up the rest of the horse)

i cant decided which would be the better option to try to prevent re injury..... Vets have contradicted themselves and given different answers. I am just trying to plan everything before I start rehab again so we can hit the ground running and I am not faffing around trying to find out these things once stuck in!

 

[khalswitz]

Personally (I'm no vet), I would say that you need to warm up the tendons for exercise, then cool down afterwards. I use the boots you mean for things like XC that are hard on tendons to stop them overheating, but not to keep them cold per se.

I would warm them up beforehand, use some sort of support boot/bandage during, and then use a cooling boot afterwards, if I were really trying to protect the tendons best.

ETA I've heard good things about Icevibe boots - the vibe function to warm up tendons before exercise, then the cool pack to cool them down afterwards.

 

[Calcyle]

Keep them cold. You want to counter the inflammatory response, not encourage it.

ETA to clarify, I wouldn't use anything prior to/during exercise other that for protective purposes, and cold-hose after.

 

[TandD]

Got the ice vibe......... Didn't work, tendon went again

See you have both gone in completely the opposite direction and I can see both ways...
Warm it up to make it stretch better, more elastic
Cool it down to create less inflammation

Aghhhh this horse is sending me to an early grave!

 

[Calcyle]

There is very limited bloody supply to the tendon itself, so it's not quite the same as warming up the muscle. If it helps, I attended a CPD lecture day a few months ago, with a vet specifically lecturing on tendon injuries, and her take-home point was that the tendon will never be as strong as it once was, and that it is crucial to minimise damage by countering inflammation, and using cold-therapy post exercise is the best way to limit this.

 

[Calcyle]

Perhaps Khalswitz means warm-up in the conventional sense, as in muscular? As I would also recommend a thorough warm-up in that sense, but specifically applying a heat-pack to the tendon would be a definite no.

 

[TandD]

There is very limited bloody supply to the tendon itself, so it's not quite the same as warming up the muscle. If it helps, I attended a CPD lecture day a few months ago, with a vet specifically lecturing on tendon injuries, and her take-home point was that the tendon will never be as strong as it once was, and that it is crucial to minimise damage by countering inflammation, and using cold-therapy post exercise is the best way to limit this.

Did she suggest any sort of cold therapy? Or anything that is most effective in cooling the tendon after work....... I have got to the point where I will try pretty much anything!

 

[Calcyle]

Recalling a friends dissertation - cold-hosing is the easiest and most cost/time effective, though obviously you need to stand there with them. Clay is more or less useless. Zamar machines are the best but few of us are that lucky. Ice boots also work well, and may be the most practical option, assuming you have a place to cool them in the first place.

 

[khalswitz]

Like I said, I'm no vet - my thought was a traditional warm up, as obviously the warmer and looser the muscle the less strain on the relatively inelastic tendon? But I see what you mean - yeah using a heat pack would seem a bit counter-intuitive. I would still think a support boot would be useful though, and cold-pack or cold hose afterwards?

 

[TandD]

Ok thank you!
We have ice boots but have found that these defrost quickly and are pretty much useless by the time we put them on
I like the look of the zamar system..... I may see if I can find something similar but in a smaller size!

 

[Calcyle]

Like I said, I'm no vet - my thought was a traditional warm up, as obviously the warmer and looser the muscle the less strain on the relatively inelastic tendon? But I see what you mean - yeah using a heat pack would seem a bit counter-intuitive. I would still think a support boot would be useful though, and cold-pack or cold hose afterwards?

Yes, I think we're both on the same page then (I'm not a vet either.)

Booting I would say is dependent on the horse - I would prefer not to if not necessary, anything to avoid over-heating the tendon at the rehab stage.


That's unfortunate about the ice-boots. I'd stick with hosing then, though it would take rather longer.

 

[ridefast]

I did a leg and hoof dissection with a friend. When you see how cleverly the tendons and ligaments all weave through and interlock, like a fantastic, very well lubricated puzzle, it does make you wonder why we humans think we can do better with a bit of material... After doing that it's confirmed to me that all bandages are evil (why squeeze and compress and possibly prevent such a wonderful design from working?) And boots only if I thought were really necessary - hunting or if a horse brushed or over reached etc

 

[TandD]

So it would be better to go without boots/bandages altogether when working..... I was considering strapping and putting some of that support tubing around the leg when we first start going out again (in walk on roads)..... Would it be better to let it go naked right from the word go?

 

[khalswitz]

I did a leg and hoof dissection with a friend. When you see how cleverly the tendons and ligaments all weave through and interlock, like a fantastic, very well lubricated puzzle, it does make you wonder why we humans think we can do better with a bit of material... After doing that it's confirmed to me that all bandages are evil (why squeeze and compress and possibly prevent such a wonderful design from working?) And boots only if I thought were really necessary - hunting or if a horse brushed or over reached etc

Yes but when that has been damaged, surely any extra support is useful? (I've also done that dissection - I did start out at vet school, did my preclinical degree, and tendons in the equine manus and crus is one of the most beautiful dissections you can do. Particularly the manica flexoria.)

I think it is a toss-up between trying to keep the tendon from over-heating, and yet giving the tendon as much support as possible.

 

[Calcyle]

I was taught that most bandages are actually a proprioceptive aid, rather than providing support, as they aren't really strong enough to do that, even to humans, let alone horses. Unless likely to over-reach or knock himself, I wouldn't boot, but if you're just starting rehab it might be best to once or twice until you know how he is likely to behave?


Also I agree about the dissections, I've done a couple already, but would love to again! It's incredible.

 

[khalswitz]

I was taught that most bandages are actually a proprioceptive aid, rather than providing support, as they aren't really strong enough to do that, even to humans, let alone horses. Unless likely to over-reach or knock himself, I wouldn't boot, but if you're just starting rehab it might be best to once or twice until you know how he is likely to behave?


Also I agree about the dissections, I've done a couple already, but would love to again! It's incredible.

Really? Because I definitely have 'support' bandages from when I tore a ligament in my knee, and I was going through the physio etc to rehab it (and they definitely helped!!). I assumed there would therefore be a degree of support in a decent elastic-y bandage, or training wrap...

 

[TandD]

I was taught that most bandages are actually a proprioceptive aid, rather than providing support, as they aren't really strong enough to do that, even to humans, let alone horses. Unless likely to over-reach or knock himself, I wouldn't boot, but if you're just starting rehab it might be best to once or twice until you know how he is likely to behave?


Also I agree about the dissections, I've done a couple already, but would love to again! It's incredible.

So how strong would we be looking at to make it an effect tool in giving support to the horse?
She's a complete prat and I think I'm insane to be trying this again, but we are giving it ago...... I've just made silly mistakes before that have put us back. I'm hoping once we get going she will settle into the routine..... Well after 3 months of walking I'm hoping she will be so fed up of walking in straight lines and looking at the same hedges that she will plod along!

 

[Calcyle]

I apologise, I think I could have phrased it better, there IS obviously some support there, but that is not how they chiefly work, mostly by changing how that body part feels, so you use it differently (multi-tasking, I think I've edited every reply I've posted on this thread at least once about something!). In this instance I don't think that the support offered would offset the risk of overheating enough to warrant using them.

 

[TheMule]

Supporting a ligament in a human knee is very, very different to attempting to 'support' tendons in a horse's leg. You can support ligaments around a joint, you cannot support tendons running up a leg.

Tendons don't need to warm up as they are largely inert- they get moved by the muscles so yes, 'warm' the muscles up through correct stretching and gentle introduction to exercise but don't heat the tendons themselves, they're designed to be at normal body temperature.

Use airflow boots and cool the legs after work.

 

[TandD]

So if I can find a support 'something' that gives more support than possible overheating it would be ok to use them? And give a more positive effect than negative?

Ok after reading the above post.....this one needs ignoring!

However.........why can't tendons Up a leg be supported?

 

[khalswitz]

Totally fair. I'll admit I'm only biased towards support bandages because of my own injury and knowing how much better it felt! But horse's tendons are a different kettle of fish...

 

[TheMule]

However.........why can't tendons Up a leg be supported?

How can exerting a horizontal force on a vertical structure support it?! It doesn't need holding in- as a previous poster said, the body has solved this problem already.

 

[TandD]

How can exerting a horizontal force on a vertical structure support it?! It doesn't need holding in- as a previous poster said, the body has solved this problem already.

Ok, yes that make sense....I am just trying to understand how best to give the tendon the optimum oppertunity of working without breaking..... I have never had chance of dissections etc so I have very little knowledge on the actually structure and complex make up of the lower leg.
so if you could support it vertically it would be a 'better' support?

 

[Calcyle]

What is the actual injury, if I may be curious?

No, not much that can really be done, support-wise. Just take it slowly, boot if necessary, and cold-hose afterwards, and you will be doing all you can

 

[khalswitz]

How can exerting a horizontal force on a vertical structure support it?! It doesn't need holding in- as a previous poster said, the body has solved this problem already.

Hehe just to be devils advocate, it depends what other forces are at play, and how much of the body's natural support network has been damaged. Technically the support bandage works best at the joint, where there are multidirectional forces at play, particularly on a tendon that has been torn and the force-load isn't even distributed horizontally across the structure, so it is the fetlock-crossing bandages that really support.

Plus, a big benefit of support bandages not mentioned already is for the other limb - the one that is taking more strain and bearing more weight to compensate for the one that has been repeatedly injured. I always bandage both.

 

[TandD]

Tear in upper bit of sdft through running around in 1ft high mud... Stem cells and 16weeks box rest
9 months later I over worked her (hack to long, she got to tired...still kick myself to this day because if this hadn't happened she would be flying by now) strain in the tendon
8 months later back in work and pushed to much to soon and tiny tear in lower bit of sdft..... Not to serious but change of direction in the type of rehab (just field rest this time)and she isn't going to start proper work till next February/march.... However I want to start short road work in November to really give it the best chance possible

Soooo...you will all say it's a lost case and that I'm mad, silly etc..... However every time I have made very silly mistakes and this time I am planning the program myself and not relying on others, esp vet to create a rehab program!

 

[be positive]

I have just done rehab with a horse that damaged its tendon he did all his exercise without any boots or bandages, it was all out hacking and luckily done while he was still out 24/7 so no real silliness to contend with, he has now gone back into training and looking good, time and proper fitness all round is what they require, no boot or bandage can really help except against knocks or strike injuries.
He had routine physio to assist his rehab as being a racehorse he did not really work correctly, this helped build up his topline, carry himself better and so more chance of remaining sound in the future.

 

[amage]

We have rehabbed a few horses from serious tendon injuries and got them back racing again very successfully. If you have rehabbed several times and reinjured without any major work then that says to me the rehab programme you are following is not working. Have you access to a river, sea or equine spa? The sea is a crucial part of our rehab. As soon as the horse is ready to start walking they are hacked 500yards down the road and into the sea. We build up walking work in the sea in the water up to the horses belly. There is far less concussion to the legs and you build up strength and fitness with minimal weight pressure on the legs. I have been told in the past about tendons always being "weak" but don't believe it. We've yet to have a tendon injury reoccur and in our most recent rehab case scans could not find any indication of prior injury despite it being quite severe. We work with our physio who also does laser therapy and the Ice Vibe boots are an integral part of our programme worn prior to work with just the vibration panels and with ice packs every evening after legs have dried post sea. The horses wear boots for work but not in the sea. It is not unusual to find my OH on way home after cantering horses with the boots on the horses martingale as they have been in the sea after working. We use basic eskadron tendon boots to help prevent strike injury when working/schooling/jumping etc. Their legs are naked in the field or hacking (hacking will 99.99999% of the time end up in the sea). When rehabbing we focus alot on outline and building a good topline and frame. The stronger and fitter the whole body is the quicker the recovery from hard work.

Aiming to keep the legs cold during exercise is completely unrealistic...think about it logically...you can't physically exercise without generating heat throughout your body so why expect your horse to do the same? what you can do is cool the legs post exercise to minimise inflammation. NB the Ice Vibe boots are not designed to cool hot legs post exercise but to be a cool therapy boot. I could prattle on for hours about rehabbing but please please don't give up hope...you can be successful. Feel free to pm if you have any questions or want to ask more specifics.

ETA to give you some hope in terms of time frame....our last rehab case arrived with two broken down tendons (done in two seperate injuries and badly rehabbed) in late Feb 2012. He was on the way to the factory from previous trainers and owners rerouted him to us....he ran in Jan 2013. He was crippled arriving, legs awful....We had him sound and walking in 4 weeks, staying sound and cantering in June and the only reason he didn't run till Jan was because we didn't get suitable ground for him till then

 

[mynutmeg]

We have rehabbed a few horses from serious tendon injuries and got them back racing again very successfully. If you have rehabbed several times and reinjured without any major work then that says to me the rehab programme you are following is not working. Have you access to a river, sea or equine spa? The sea is a crucial part of our rehab. As soon as the horse is ready to start walking they are hacked 500yards down the road and into the sea. We build up walking work in the sea in the water up to the horses belly. There is far less concussion to the legs and you build up strength and fitness with minimal weight pressure on the legs. I have been told in the past about tendons always being "weak" but don't believe it. We've yet to have a tendon injury reoccur and in our most recent rehab case scans could not find any indication of prior injury despite it being quite severe. We work with our physio who also does laser therapy and the Ice Vibe boots are an integral part of our programme worn prior to work with just the vibration panels and with ice packs every evening after legs have dried post sea. The horses wear boots for work but not in the sea. It is not unusual to find my OH on way home after cantering horses with the boots on the horses martingale as they have been in the sea after working. We use basic eskadron tendon boots to help prevent strike injury when working/schooling/jumping etc. Their legs are naked in the field or hacking (hacking will 99.99999% of the time end up in the sea). When rehabbing we focus alot on outline and building a good topline and frame. The stronger and fitter the whole body is the quicker the recovery from hard work.

Aiming to keep the legs cold during exercise is completely unrealistic...think about it logically...you can't physically exercise without generating heat throughout your body so why expect your horse to do the same? what you can do is cool the legs post exercise to minimise inflammation. NB the Ice Vibe boots are not designed to cool hot legs post exercise but to be a cool therapy boot. I could prattle on for hours about rehabbing but please please don't give up hope...you can be successful. Feel free to pm if you have any questions or want to ask more specifics.

ETA to give you some hope in terms of time frame....our last rehab case arrived with two broken down tendons (done in two seperate injuries and badly rehabbed) in late Feb 2012. He was on the way to the factory from previous trainers and owners rerouted him to us....he ran in Jan 2013. He was crippled arriving, legs awful....We had him sound and walking in 4 weeks, staying sound and cantering in June and the only reason he didn't run till Jan was because we didn't get suitable ground for him till then

This is really encouraging for me - my mare put a ~50% hole in her hind leg DDFT about 2 years ago. She's just coming back into work now following 2 years out and a foally. she's 100% sound on it at the moment and we're just starting to walk out short distances - unfortunately there's no water but a grade 4 river anywhere near me but your ability to get them back fully race sound is really encouraging for me

 

[amage]

This is really encouraging for me - my mare put a ~50% hole in her hind leg DDFT about 2 years ago. She's just coming back into work now following 2 years out and a foally. she's 100% sound on it at the moment and we're just starting to walk out short distances - unfortunately there's no water but a grade 4 river anywhere near me but your ability to get them back fully race sound is really encouraging for me

Aw I'm glad you found it encouraging! No water does make it a bit more difficult but it can be done it's just slower? Is there any equine pool near you? If horse has no back troubles then swimming as she gets a bit fitter could be if benefit. The fact that she had a foal definitely helps as her time off would have been fairly active and she also had a major period of weight carrying exercise!! Best of luck