Tension in Dressage

[Melodra]

This weekend I did my dressage with my boy. He's a fizzy part bred Arab, he loves his work but is quite excitable and has come from a showjumping background. Our first time out he boiled over, highlights of our test including freestyle cantering down the centre line and an impressive sideways crab across the arena, but this time although he was excited (admittedly bit of a coiled spring) he was completely obedient and I was so happy with the huge improvement and how he went. The judge's comments pretty much reiterated this - lovely horse, shame too much tension today as his work is very promising - but she marked him pretty much on a level with how he was marked on his first time out, and seemed a little bit harsh. That said, I know it is swings and roundabouts with different judges, However, when I looked at the results he was placed below horses that were literally kicked around the arena and on their forehands and lazy but obviously calmer than my boy.

So, I guess my question is...is a horse showing a bit of tension due to excitement, but clearly enjoying himself and totally obedient and responsive, demonstrating quality work really so much worse than a horse that is more relaxed but being booted around the arena, not wanting to be there, not enjoying its work? Would be interested to get everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[milliepops]

Simple version of a longer answer, IMO they are both faults and one is not necessarily worse than the other but sometimes the nature of test riding makes one a bigger problem.

Longer answer. the way you end up scored can be affected differently. A horse that is relaxed but behind the leg, appears to you to be going through the motions might actually be scoring quite well. That horse might be riding accurate shapes, transitions at the correct markers, in the collectives would score highly for the submission elements, quite possibly stays in a regular rhythm even if it appears lacklustre to you and so on.
So they might have performed the test as it's written down quite well even if it seemed lazy.

Whereas if yours is tense, then the submission collective will be affected, as well as the regularity of the paces, if you've taken unplanned detours around the arena through exuberance then your rider mark will be clobbered because you aren't in control and that's before you even score the performance of the movements as written.

the dressage test is not just a general assessment of the horse, it's also about the horse and rider's ability to demonstrate a set floorplan, so if you think about it like that perhaps it makes more sense when you are scored like that.

 

[be positive]

It depends which way you look at things, to some judges a tense horse will not be showing "quality work" and may appear as if it is not really enjoying itself any more than the lazy one that requires kicking to keep going but is relaxed and could well be having a great time doing it's job without any real effort being made, at Intro or prelim most judges will give better marks for a quiet horse that is making no real mistakes even if they show little quality in what they are doing.
Judging is subjective and competing should be used as a guide to how you are progressing, if you were happy that he went better that is the main thing and you can take on board what requires working on, most horses improve with each outing even if the marks don't always reflect that improvement.

 

[Cortez]

"Calm, forward, straight" is the basic mantra of dressage. Calm, as you will note, is the first on the list. If the horse is tense in his body then he is incapable of using the muscles properly, so it really is the first thing that has to be present.

 

[Melodra]

Thanks for the comments. I would say that if a horse has to be kicked to move forward, that isn't an obedient, responsive horse to me and certainly not enjoying its work. My boy was certainly enjoying himself, ears forward throughout the test, did everything that was asked of him, but was excited. I'm used to subjective judging on other horses and it has also worked in my favour in the past - and overall I'm massively happy with how he went. But I don't see that a horse being booted around an arena is particularly pleasing or should ever be the aim or considered worthy of high scores in dressage.

 

[Cortez]

Thanks for the comments. I would say that if a horse has to be kicked to move forward, that isn't an obedient, responsive horse to me and certainly not enjoying its work. My boy was certainly enjoying himself, ears forward throughout the test, did everything that was asked of him, but was excited. I'm used to subjective judging on other horses and it has also worked in my favour in the past - and overall I'm massively happy with how he went. But I don't see that a horse being booted around an arena is particularly pleasing or should ever be the aim or considered worthy of high scores in dressage.

Well, since you're not actually the judge your opinion is not really pertinent to the outcome. As the rider of horses that are also quite buzzy and enthusiastic (Spanish) I have learned to graciously accept that not all judges are going to appreciate the joi de vivre that they sometimes express in the ring.

 

[Melodra]

Well, since you're not actually the judge your opinion is not really pertinent to the outcome. As the rider of horses that are also quite buzzy and enthusiastic (Spanish) I have learned to graciously accept that not all judges are going to appreciate the joi de vivre that they sometimes express in the ring.

I've no problem with the comments which I agree with and perfectly gracious about it thank you. As I clearly stated above, I understand subjective judging and it has worked in my favour in the past when I have been scored more highly than I probably deserved. But I am entitled to have an opinion about and discuss the judging of a test I have paid to enter, whether it affects the outcome or not.

 

[Cortez]

I've no problem with the comments which I agree with and perfectly gracious about it thank you. As I clearly stated above, I understand subjective judging and it has worked in my favour in the past when I have been scored more highly than I probably deserved. But I am entitled to have an opinion about and discuss the judging of a test I have paid to enter, whether it affects the outcome or not.

Perhaps you should discuss this with the judge, they may be able to explain their preference and what the criteria are. I'm not fond of stuffy, draggy horses either, but sometimes they are closer to the requirements of a test and level than something which is obviously tense and disobedient. Not sure what paying for something has to do with it, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

 

[sportsmansB]

I used to have an ex sj mare. She had no real time for dressage, suffered through it to event and thought pure dressage competitions were the most boring thing ever... Even when I came out pleased |(usually due to not adding extra canters, that was her favourite) we often still didn't score highly even though she moved well. I was also frustrated when the horses which looked to me like they were plodding around scored above us. But they were, generally, more secure in the contact, more accurate, had smoother transitions up and down, and calmer. Tension does reduce the scores massively, and what we see in our beloved as enthusiasm and enjoyment of the work (in mine, to be honest, it was more usually impatience!) can come across badly. My next horse after her was also a good mover but was a bit of a kick along in a test, but never moved his head, had the correct bend all the time, gave you loads of time to be accurate - and we got amazing scores. Pity he didn't like cross country...

 

[Melodra]

Perhaps you should discuss this with the judge, they may be able to explain their preference and what the criteria are. I'm not fond of stuffy, draggy horses either, but sometimes they are closer to the requirements of a test and level than something which is obviously tense and disobedient. Not sure what paying for something has to do with it, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

Not expecting everyone to agree with me...but there is a way of disagreeing politely instead of trying to shut down the discussion. The judge's comments were actually lovely about him, she clearly thought there was some quality work from him - and I don't disagree with her comments at all. I am simply questioning if a relaxed but lazy horse on its forehand that has to be kicked along should be achieving high dressage scores.

 

[ester]

It depends what level you are talking about, if it is intro/prelim then yes they likely will, while having to use a lot of leg is not always a pretty picture if the horse is doing the motions in the right places calmly and most importantly accurately there isn't really a reason it wouldn't score quite well. Being shown to be 'enjoying the work' really comes pretty far down the list for dressage, and I wouldn't consider a tense horse to necessarily be demonstrating that either just because it has a keen attitude to life.

Fwiw I have a lazy albeit obedient one, he always scored well/better when he was on the lazier side than on the occasions he was hotter (welsh) because he would be much more through, rhythmical and generally accurate than when he was tense.

 

[Melodra]

I used to have an ex sj mare. She had no real time for dressage, suffered through it to event and thought pure dressage competitions were the most boring thing ever... Even when I came out pleased |(usually due to not adding extra canters, that was her favourite) we often still didn't score highly even though she moved well. I was also frustrated when the horses which looked to me like they were plodding around scored above us. But they were, generally, more secure in the contact, more accurate, had smoother transitions up and down, and calmer. Tension does reduce the scores massively, and what we see in our beloved as enthusiasm and enjoyment of the work (in mine, to be honest, it was more usually impatience!) can come across badly. My next horse after her was also a good mover but was a bit of a kick along in a test, but never moved his head, had the correct bend all the time, gave you loads of time to be accurate - and we got amazing scores. Pity he didn't like cross country...

Tbh he loves all his work, including flatwork. In our collectives the judge stated that once he relaxed he would achieve high scores as he showed some very promising work and also remarked that he was obedient. In a lot of ways his showjumping has helped him the flat, he can do flying changes for fun but as you say yours was, he is exuberant. The main issue is that he can become a little tight in his frame as an outcome of that excitement and tension. It just seems strange to me to be considered a such hugely greater sin than a horse leaning on the bit on its forehand being kicked around the arena.

 

[milliepops]

OP if you really want to gain an understanding of why that is, then can i suggest attending some of the judge training days run by BD? most are open to all members and can be really useful to understanding why you score what you do sometimes. I have certainly found it to be very helpful - I can't always do much about the way my horse is feeling on the day but I find it easier to walk out of the arena and predict the score rather than find it's a surprise when the results are posted.
Failing that many judges are willing to discuss in more detail at the end of the day.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Not expecting everyone to agree with me...but there is a way of disagreeing politely instead of trying to shut down the discussion. The judge's comments were actually lovely about him, she clearly thought there was some quality work from him - and I don't disagree with her comments at all. I am simply questioning if a relaxed but lazy horse on its forehand that has to be kicked along should be achieving high dressage scores.

Following with interest. I have 2 horses, one wizzy gelding and one very laid back gelding. My wizzy gelding always gets the same comments as yours. Very forward, fast etc. My other gelding is very chilled, big paces. He isn't a 'kick along ride' but he is very steady and you have to ask more rather than ask to steady up.
I've always thought the wizzy one would do better dressage being more 'willing' but I was wrong. I never done any dressage on my laid back chap, scared of being laughed at but a friend who does affiliated said he'd do well, and hes placed every time we've been out. The judges seem to love him and that hes careful and doesn't rush.

The more you do tests he'll calm down, keep at it, its easier to calm them down than give them more va voom.

 

[milliepops]

"willing" isn't a word that is used on the test sheet though. and you can only receive a score for something written on the test sheet.

to a degree a more forward, self motivated horse will score more highly for the impulsion collective (but perhaps not for the suppleness element of it) and possibly for the freedom of paces (but if it's tense, perhaps not for the regularity element of that).

Seriously, read all the words of the whole test sheet, that really helps to understand what is required for each movement. THese days the movements all have directives written as well as additional details in the collectives. I have an advanced medium test sheet in front of me but the wording of the collectives is the same in all levels, try and assess honestly whether the "willing" horse really ticks more of the boxes than the more chilled horse? They probably have elements that each of them satisfy and elements that they don't. But often, a horse with less tension can also perform the actual movements better, *as they are written*, e.g. a round circle that is uniform in shape and size, with correct bend, consistent contact, attentive, regular, in balance etc.

 

[Melodra]

Perhaps you should discuss this with the judge, they may be able to explain their preference and what the criteria are. I'm not fond of stuffy, draggy horses either, but sometimes they are closer to the requirements of a test and level than something which is obviously tense and disobedient. Not sure what paying for something has to do with it, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

Just to respond further to that. As I stated above, he was totally obedient, did everything asked, when asked. He was not any stage disobedient - that is not what tension is. The judge acknowledged that he was an obedient horse in her collectives, she actually said he was a lovely horse who once relaxed would achieve high scores as the quality of his work was very promising....the issue was tension and a tendency to tighten in his frame at times.

 

[Melodra]

OP if you really want to gain an understanding of why that is, then can i suggest attending some of the judge training days run by BD? most are open to all members and can be really useful to understanding why you score what you do sometimes. I have certainly found it to be very helpful - I can't always do much about the way my horse is feeling on the day but I find it easier to walk out of the arena and predict the score rather than find it's a surprise when the results are posted.
Failing that many judges are willing to discuss in more detail at the end of the day.

Tbh I agree with her comments which I am not questioning.

 

[Bellaboo18]

OP have you got a recording of the test? It'd be interesting to watch

 

[Melodra]

OP have you got a recording of the test? It'd be interesting to watch

Tbh, I would rather not put him up here to be slated by a couple of the posters above. I agree with the judge's comments on the sheet and I'm more than happy with how he went. My question is why a little tensiondue to excitement in otherwise obedient horse that receives positive comments in every other way is scored overall so much worse than outright laziness and a horse that has to be kicked to move forward.

To be honest it was meant more than a point of interest, than anything.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Tbh, I would rather not put him up here to be slated by a couple of the posters above. I agree with the judge's comments on the sheet and I'm more than happy with how he went. My question is why a little tension is judged so much worse than outright laziness and a horse that has to be kicked to move forward.

I don't blame you. I was genuinely interested. I'm a show jumper at heart but have done the odd dressage test and plan to do a couple with my new mare just to start getting her out and about. She has paces to die for (I'm obviously biased) but wonder how she'll do compared to my old reliable cob.

 

[ester]

If you agree with the comments what are you questioning?, your OP says you felt the Judge was harsh which I think is why you have received indications as to why they might have been?

Or was your intention to more question the scores received by others?

 

[Melodra]

If you agree with the comments what are you questioning? Just the scores that other horses achieved?

I think I've been more than clear but will repeat again.

Again it was meant as a point of interest, Why is a horse that is otherwise obedient and receiving positive comments in every other aspect, but tense at times due to excitement, scored significantly worse than a horse that can only perform the movements by being kicked around the arena?

Is tension worse in a horse than laziness and being unresponsive?

 

[Melodra]

If you agree with the comments what are you questioning?, your OP says you felt the Judge was harsh which I think is why you have received indications as to why they might have been?

Or was your intention to more question the scores received by others?

Further to your edited comment, I did feel the marking was a little harsh, but not particularly bothered by that as swings and roundabouts with different judges. I was simply asking a generic question - not questioning the feedback which I agree with.

People really jump down your throat here for some reason, without reading properly. Wishing I hadn't bothered.

 

[milliepops]

no one's jumped down your throat. I thought I had tried to answer your question quite thoroughly, as have others. At the end of the day, we can all have views about what we prefer to watch in dressage, but the reality is that there is a detailed scoring system that is applied by trained judges who have to pass exams, and which allows only small variation for personal preference and bias - I'm speaking here about affiliated judging, unaffiliated can be highly variable and is barely worth even thinking about any scoring system unless they are using trained listed judges. (and if it's unaffiliated that you are having the issue with then I would suggest joining BD and leaving that weird world behind).

Another source of written information about how the marks are applied is in the FEI dressage handbook guidelines for judges, it's a rather dry read but does explain the requirements for a movement to score every mark from 1 to 10. anyone can buy a copy, I have one on my bookshelf

 

[ester]

Fwiw I always read properly, but the written word doesn't always convey what we want it to, hence my queries.

Essentially I think it boils down to yes, in my experience at least tension is worse than laziness and being unresponsive- in the way that you are having to use obvious aids to get the right thing to happen at the right time but they are happening.

I don't see any throat jumping either, merely suggestions to try and approach what you wrote in your OP.

 

[Melodra]

no one's jumped down your throat. I thought I had tried to answer your question quite thoroughly, as have others. At the end of the day, we can all have views about what we prefer to watch in dressage, but the reality is that there is a detailed scoring system that is applied by trained judges who have to pass exams, and which allows only small variation for personal preference and bias - I'm speaking here about affiliated judging, unaffiliated can be highly variable and is barely worth even thinking about any scoring system unless they are using trained listed judges. (and if it's unaffiliated that you are having the issue with then I would suggest joining BD and leaving that weird world behind).

Another source of written information about how the marks are applied is in the FEI dressage handbook guidelines for judges, it's a rather dry read but does explain the requirements for a movement to score every mark from 1 to 10. anyone can buy a copy, I have one on my bookshelf

I appreciated your constructive comments, think I “liked” a couple of them.

It is more those who apparently don’t feel I have the right to ask this question, or don’t read the post properly and assume that my horse was disobedient/not carrying out each movement which I have stated several times he was. The judge described him as obedient in his collectives, really her only criticism throughout was tension and a corresponding tightening of his frame at times. No issues with accuracy, obedience, he is a lovely mover and she clearly thought he had potential.

Not sure why then people on this thread keep describing him as disobedient,

 

[Melodra]

Fwiw I always read properly, but the written word doesn't always convey what we want it to, hence my queries.

Essentially I think it boils down to yes, in my experience at least tension is worse than laziness and being unresponsive- in the way that you are having to use obvious aids to get the right thing to happen at the right time but they are happening.

I don't see any throat jumping either, merely suggestions to try and approach what you wrote in your OP.

That’s what I mean about not reading. He did everything he was asked, when asked. The judge stated that he was obedient in his collectives.

 

[Bernster]

I think it’s an interesting discussion. I don’t know the answer but I’ve found some of the replies here helpful in clarifying potential reasons.

I do however think it’s hard for people as they are commenting on only what’s in your post, and replying on a general level from their experience (which is really all you can do on a forum like this) whereas you OP obv have more info and a different perspective.

And perhaps some people use the term disobedient to indicate tension or similar, or it could be seen as that in a test? Judge doesn’t know if your horse is tense cos it’s excited or otherwise.

Just trying to help cut through what appears to be an interesting discussion that is in danger of going off course. But hey that’s the curse of hho I suppose...

 

[ester]

TBF only one person, not people mentioned 'disobedient'.

In that post I am certainly not suggesting that a tense horse does not do things at the right time/is disobedient, just reiterating that even if a horse is off the aids (which obviously could lead to not doing things at the right place) that it will have to be doing things at the right place in order to generate a good score. If it is off the aids and only cantering several strides after it should have it will not score well over a tense horse.

Which kind of reiterates my point that it is easy to read things wrongly.

 

[madamebonnie]

It is hard when you have a fizzy horse. I spent my teens wishing my pony would just relax. She was obedient, talented and well schooled. But she found the whole thing very tense. So often she would not score much above 60% no matter the level because tension crept in.

I now have a 'lazy kick-along'. The judges seem to like him. Above anything he is rhythmical and consistent. We are building the suppleness and power as we go. I will admit its not as nice a feeling riding a horse like that compared to a more wizzy pony, but the judges aren't riding. They're only judging what they see in front.

I wish I could show the difference my instructor has made to my friends eventer. She is tense but obedient, powerful, lovely paces and again all the talent. Again the judges knock it badly. But the difference since training with this lady is amazing. The more she relaxes the more incredible she looks. I so wish I had my pony now! If you are based in Cheshire PM me and I'll send you some details.