The best trot ever?

[Goldenstar]

Tatts never cantered at play when he arrived he did spider trot instead as his riding training has progressed he does now play in canter ( having a TB friend perhaps helped ) and he looks more normal in his movement as he has learnt to use his body more the extreme extravagance with his limbs has reduced.

 

[cundlegreen]

They were used extensively in North America - Clyde x Hackney jumpers were standard fare and another cross with tb formed the back bone of Hunter Improvement books.

The big problem is the canter. There simply isn't a place in modern high level sport for horses without good natural canter. Even the freaks who are carriage bred but canter well themselves don't usually have the genes to pass it on.

Very interesting.I can't get my head around a Clyde cross Hackney! I had another little Hackney who qualified for the National Dressage Championships under saddle. Scored very highly with one judge, badly with the other.Apparently a portugese drassage trainer came over, and really loved his way of going. That figures?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

This has to be one of the most fascinating threads I've read in a long time!

I've had nothing to add but the talk about Hackney's made me want to mention Topaz.
She's a Hackney x Friesian and is the most talented horse I've ever ridden. We bought her to jump but have turned to dressage this year and our instructor is very excited about her. As although her trot is her strongest pace by far, her canter isn't too bad naturally (she's definitely a freak of her breeding as she was bred to be driven), she can canter on the spot if she wants to.
The biggest challenge I have is when I ask for things in the canter, I tend to (unintentionally) block her movement and then because it is her weaker pace she struggles a lot more, though it is me as loose or in the field she has a lovely canter.
Looking at her I couldn't understand why there are not more with her breeding in the sports horse world, until it was pointed out just what a bizarre result she really is...

I'm now paranoid about breaking her by asking things which 'should' be hard for her but yet she finds ridiculously easy . How do you know if your on the road to a breakdown when your horse offers all the collection and cadence without you asking for it?

Sorry I'm going off track but it is something that is on my mind, that just because she wants to do it, should she?

As you were people .
x x

 

[_GG_]

This has to be one of the most fascinating threads I've read in a long time!

I've had nothing to add but the talk about Hackney's made me want to mention Topaz.
She's a Hackney x Friesian and is the most talented horse I've ever ridden. We bought her to jump but have turned to dressage this year and our instructor is very excited about her. As although her trot is her strongest pace by far, her canter isn't too bad naturally (she's definitely a freak of her breeding as she was bred to be driven), she can canter on the spot if she wants to.
The biggest challenge I have is when I ask for things in the canter, I tend to (unintentionally) block her movement and then because it is her weaker pace she struggles a lot more, though it is me as loose or in the field she has a lovely canter.
Looking at her I couldn't understand why there are not more with her breeding in the sports horse world, until it was pointed out just what a bizarre result she really is...

I'm now paranoid about breaking her by asking things which 'should' be hard for her but yet she finds ridiculously easy . How do you know if your on the road to a breakdown when your horse offers all the collection and cadence without you asking for it?

Sorry I'm going off track but it is something that is on my mind, that just because she wants to do it, should she?

As you were people .
x x

Go into your training with no assumptions. Clear the slate, forget the type and breeding and what she "should" be and concentrate only on what she can be.

There are some horses that just have a gift for certain things. Ride her the same way you should ride any horse....with no preconceptions or solid plans. Just an ability to read the horse, respond and react in a way that encourages them and takes them forward. You lucky thing, she sounds wonderful

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Go into your training with no assumptions. Clear the slate, forget the type and breeding and what she "should" be and concentrate only on what she can be.

There are some horses that just have a gift for certain things. Ride her the same way you should ride any horse....with no preconceptions or solid plans. Just an ability to read the horse, respond and react in a way that encourages them and takes them forward. You lucky thing, she sounds wonderful

Well we certainly went in with no expectations for dressage, however now it has been shown and talked about how far she 'could' go it's made for a slightly scary wake up call about just what a wonderful horse we have on our hands!

With my novice incompetence she has qualified very easily for Novice Regional's, and we are now playing with moving up to Elementary and perhaps a Medium towards the end of the year, once we've installed half-pass and sitting trot . However this will only depend on how well she continues her current trend of all dressage moves are easy...

It is my lacking that I'm worried about, to not have the ability to read things when they are too hard for her? Is it true that most horses can go up through the scales on dressage but it is just the expression and cadence which cannot be forced, and if they are then this is when problems can start? Asking for too much sit etc?

She is currently learning flying changes which is apparently the most fun ever , not for me to sit to mind as it is all up, up, up , but they have been a massive breakthrough for counter canter as now she waits for me to ask for the change instead of just offering it. It's like everything is very exciting when she's learning it and then once she knows it she's desperate to learn the next thing, it all just feels like its too fast paced and she should really be taking longer...

The Canadian horse that was talked about earlier reminds me of this as well, as I know if I asked she would give me passage all day long and we can see piaffe being very easy for her (we have done the merest start of half steps which showed her potential), and yet the steps in front haven't been walked yet.

I cannot believe that I was never interested in dressage before as it is a fascinating journey!

x x

 

[TarrSteps]

^ That. If she is offering and isn't struggling then you're good to go. Lucky you.

I don't know if my earlier comments contributed to your musing but I said effectively the same thing, that 'should' doesn't really come into it. You have to assess the horse in front of you. The comments about type and breeding have to do with picking horses that will clearly struggle with a task and then insisting they do it, regardless. Your situation seems the opposite - perhaps your horse would look unsuitable on paper but in real life she's keen and capable.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

^ That. If she is offering and isn't struggling then you're good to go. Lucky you.

I don't know if my earlier comments contributed to your musing but I said effectively the same thing, that 'should' doesn't really come into it. You have to assess the horse in front of you. The comments about type and breeding have to do with picking horses that will clearly struggle with a task and then insisting they do it, regardless. Your situation seems the opposite - perhaps your horse would look unsuitable on paper but in real life she's keen and capable.

She is very much not suppose to do the things she does if you only looked at what her breeding is! I'm not sure Friesian's and Hackneys are renown for their jumping abilities which are only limited by the height of my wings and size of our school , which was the reason we bought her.

I should add that I'm not drilling her with harder and harder movements, just asking for things to help improve us. So we introduced lateral work, (mainly shoulder-in), to help her medium trot, as well as asking for a little more sit to help her stay uphill and up when she does extend. We started walk-canter-walk transitions to help the quality of her canter, flying changes to help our counter canter etc.

Plus all this is great at home, but trying to find the same relaxation in a competition is proving elusive to say the least! Which is why we've thought about going up the levels to give her more to think about and less to spook at, but of course when she does have a melt down at the blue pole outside of the arena next to wheelbarrow of doom, it does mean its harder to recover from when the movements come so much faster...

But yes I should probably stop over-thinking it and just enjoy her, as she's just fantastic and really wants to please .

x x

 

[Deseado]

I think Mr President was a hackney/gelderlander/unknown cross? I'm not surprised the Portuguese trainer liked your mare as they have the same sort of high, round movement that is found in the Iberian breeds (or was, until they started tinkering to produce more modern types :-( The main problem with using hackney, friesian or other driving bred horses for modern dressage is the way that they use their backs (or rather don't), and the canter is often problematic. This is not surprising as they were developed to trot, and to pull rather than carry.

 

[Auslander]

I think it may have been me who put the wind up you, as I started the sub conversation about breaking horses that weren't designed to do the job. It doesn't sound like she is struggling, so I wouldn't worry. They were just idle musings on my part, based on my own horse. For his breeding (Shire/TB), he's a very athletic shape (when in proper work!), and although he was never a flashy mover, he was very trainable and very correct, which is how he achieved what he did. Fundamentally though, he is a puller, not a pusher, and the degree of sit needed at the higher levels is harder for him than it is for a horse like the lovely grey in Sols post on the piaffe thread. He has excellent piaffe and passage, but he has to work harder to perform them correctly than a horse who is designed to push instead of pull. He's also a very big horse, who is slightly light of bone - can't help!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I think it may have been me who put the wind up you, as I started the sub conversation about breaking horses that weren't designed to do the job. It doesn't sound like she is struggling, so I wouldn't worry. They were just idle musings on my part, based on my own horse. For his breeding (Shire/TB), he's a very athletic shape (when in proper work!), and although he was never a flashy mover, he was very trainable and very correct, which is how he achieved what he did. Fundamentally though, he is a puller, not a pusher, and the degree of sit needed at the higher levels is harder for him than it is for a horse like the lovely grey in Sols post. He has excellent piaffe and passage, but he has to work harder to perform them correctly than a horse who is designed to push instead of pull. He's also a very big horse, who is slightly light of bone - can't help!

haha don't worry these are thoughts I've been pondering for a while and this thread just voiced them .

See it comes back to it doesn't it, she is bred to pull not push....

However I think not making the height they wanted (15.2hh instead of 16.2hh+) and having legs like tree trunks ( ok I've exaggerated but she does have lots of bone), will stand her in good stead. It will be interesting to look back in 5 or 10 years time and see what our progression actually became.

Maybe all the bucking and bronco'ing has helped, as she certainly made good use of her back then . Plus I think because she's older and physically mature, she has the fitness and musculature to be able to preform the movements I'm asking for quicker than if I was asking a baby horse to do them.

As I said this thread is fascinating to read through, I'd love to get a good video of Topaz so that her biomechanics and conformation could be judged as I know very little of what I need to be looking for, we just struck lucky with her I guess .

x x

 

[Leg_end]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, takes me back to the old HHO where you could have a good debate with opposing views without a fight

I completely agree with TS in that having a horse physically able to do the job is key and one more people should pay attention to. It's something I've had a personal debate over whilst bringing my horse back into competitive work. Should I be doing it? He is bred for it, loves it and is sound right now. I have taken things VERY slowly with him though....

I watched a terrifying vid on YouTube the other day of a lovely chunky cob xc schooling. The horse just didn't have the strength or ability to carry itself over the fences and looked in serious danger of landing on them. They were no more than 80cm. Should that horse have been doing it - ears were pricked and it kept going forward but physically it was struggling?

 

[cundlegreen]

I think it may have been me who put the wind up you, as I started the sub conversation about breaking horses that weren't designed to do the job. It doesn't sound like she is struggling, so I wouldn't worry. They were just idle musings on my part, based on my own horse. For his breeding (Shire/TB), he's a very athletic shape (when in proper work!), and although he was never a flashy mover, he was very trainable and very correct, which is how he achieved what he did. Fundamentally though, he is a puller, not a pusher, and the degree of sit needed at the higher levels is harder for him than it is for a horse like the lovely grey in Sols post on the piaffe thread. He has excellent piaffe and passage, but he has to work harder to perform them correctly than a horse who is designed to push instead of pull. He's also a very big horse, who is slightly light of bone - can't help!

My Hackney is def a pusher! Any sudden stimulus will get her lowering right down behind and going into power mode. AlexHyde, you know what I mean. I would imagine passage and piaffe would be easy, as she can sometimes when tied up and wanting to be going, simply lift the front end right up. I have seen her doing a very nice levade in her box when getting worried about something outside. There is a misconception that this breed doesn't use their backs, but this stems from the wagon horses, who have their heads fixed with a tight bearing rein. They then tend to trot with the back hollowed and crouched behind, which I think is a very wearing movement. Pic of my mare using her back.....
http://rs714.pbsrc.com/albums/ww146/cundlegreen/DSC_1170_zps156577e7.jpg~320x480?t=1401448429

 

[PolarSkye]

^ That. If she is offering and isn't struggling then you're good to go. Lucky you.

I don't know if my earlier comments contributed to your musing but I said effectively the same thing, that 'should' doesn't really come into it. You have to assess the horse in front of you. The comments about type and breeding have to do with picking horses that will clearly struggle with a task and then insisting they do it, regardless.

This . . . all day long, this.

It's all about the horse in front of you - and being honest about their limitations, if not in the short term, then certainly in the long run. However, just because it "can" doesn't mean it should . . . for its long term health.

The Friesian cross Hackney sounds lovely . . . and as though she will go far in sympathetic hands .

P

 

[HufflyPuffly]

My Hackney is def a pusher! Any sudden stimulus will get her lowering right down behind and going into power mode. AlexHyde, you know what I mean. I would imagine passage and piaffe would be easy, as she can sometimes when tied up and wanting to be going, simply lift the front end right up. I have seen her doing a very nice levade in her box when getting worried about something outside. There is a misconception that this breed doesn't use their backs, but this stems from the wagon horses, who have their heads fixed with a tight bearing rein. They then tend to trot with the back hollowed and crouched behind, which I think is a very wearing movement. Pic of my mare using her back.....
http://rs714.pbsrc.com/albums/ww146/cundlegreen/DSC_1170_zps156577e7.jpg~320x480?t=1401448429

I certainly know what you mean, Topaz scared the bejesus out of the dentist last time she was here by doing a grand impression of a levade as she was bored and we were next door with Doodle . She's silly but she thinks she's great .

Also generally if spooked from behind (which is a lot :rolleyes3 it feels like you've completely lost the back end its that far underneath you and it all goes up, which is probably the same as what you've mentioned as 'power mode' .

x x

 

[PolarSkye]

I think Mr President was a hackney/gelderlander/unknown cross? I'm not surprised the Portuguese trainer liked your mare as they have the same sort of high, round movement that is found in the Iberian breeds (or was, until they started tinkering to produce more modern types :-( The main problem with using hackney, friesian or other driving bred horses for modern dressage is the way that they use their backs (or rather don't), and the canter is often problematic. This is not surprising as they were developed to trot, and to pull rather than carry.

So perhaps a decent, relatively fine cob type crossed with a good quality hackney could produce something useful?

I'm asking because that's what our little foalie at the yard is. Dam is a nice stamp of a coloured cob . . . decent conformation, short-coupled, nice bone but not heavy . . . sire is a prize-winning, registered hackney stallion with HOYS winners in his immediate dam and sire line. Foal (a filly) looks VERY like the sire in colouring (chestnut/sabino), has some bone, is nice and short in the back . . . I know they'd like to produce the filly to show first and then jump . . . personally, I'm thinking she might make a nice little dressage horse (she probably won't make more than 15hh max).

Will be interesting watching her grow up.

P

 

[Auslander]

I think it's often the horses that are on cursory inspection, fit for purpose, that may be the ones that end up with an issue. No-one in their right mind would take on a horse with glaringly horrible conformational weaknesses, and try to to turn it into a GP dressage horse (you'd hope!) - but it's far easier to take on something that looks like its almost built for the job.

Apologies for banging on about mine - but he is interesting in the context of this discussion (I think!) I've dug out a pic where you can see exactly how he is put together. If I went to see him, I'd probably think he was a nice strong sort who could handle the work, and although not perfect, is put together in an athletic enough way that he wouldn't struggle too much. He din't struggle to do the work when he was doing it, but it caused a whole heap of problems, which pretty much put him on the scrap heap in his early teens.

 

[Mearas]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, takes me back to the old HHO where you could have a good debate with opposing views without a fight

I totally agree Leg-end. It is so great when people discuss things because you can actually learn from others. Perhaps H&H could organise for us to have a like button. I have not posted for a while because it can be very addictive and time consuming but so often I read something and wish I could just 'like'it to show my agreement/enjoyment

 

[rara007]

So perhaps a decent, relatively fine cob type crossed with a good quality hackney could produce something useful?
.

P

A first Gen warmblood! More risk than two known WBs that cross knowing you've got the best of the draft and the hotblood from several generations ago, but if the genes work perfectly...

 

[Cortez]

This is a Spanish horse, quite light but very Baroque in his shape and movement. Has all the carrying power you'd ever need and does piaffe, passage, etc. with a smile. Hasn't got the length of trot you'd need to be competitive in modern dressage, but is pretty much my ideal for what I want to do and has all the "sit & carry" that I'm looking for.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I think it's often the horses that are on cursory inspection, fit for purpose, that may be the ones that end up with an issue. No-one in their right mind would take on a horse with glaringly horrible conformational weaknesses, and try to to turn it into a GP dressage horse (you'd hope!) - but it's far easier to take on something that looks like its almost built for the job.

Apologies for banging on about mine - but he is interesting in the context of this discussion (I think!) I've dug out a pic where you can see exactly how he is put together. If I went to see him, I'd probably think he was a nice strong sort who could handle the work, and although not perfect, is put together in an athletic enough way that he wouldn't struggle too much. He din't struggle to do the work when he was doing it, but it caused a whole heap of problems, which pretty much put him on the scrap heap in his early teens.

See I think he is lovely, could you possibly point out what problems occurred and if relevant what conformation/bio-mechanics contributed? Was he trained for dressage from a baby and when did he breakdown? Sorry if you'd rather not answer these questions, I'm just genuinely interested .

Again (to bang on about my own ride ) I wouldn't have said Topaz is the best put together but then she certainly doesn't seem to be struggling at the work being asked of her...

If anybody has the inclination to give their thoughts on her, here is a video of a novice test we did way back in January, as you can imagine she has come on a lot since then and her canter for starters is far less wild .
[video=youtube;W9_--anZf5k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_--anZf5k[/video]

She is tense, hot and spooky so not the best video of her but it does give an idea as to her general way of going. Apart from her bounciness I'm pretty clueless as to why she will be good at dressage, or why she finds it easy to sit and collect?

I'm aware she will probably not make a top dressage horse , but she scores well when her mind is on task.

x x

 

[Cortez]

See pic above yours of the grey and that'll maybe shine a little light on why she can sit - plenty of articulation of the hind joints (not just hocks, BTW, also hip & pelvis), set-on of the neck & head, front legs a little forwards on the body. I also have a half Friesian mare who is the best thing on 4 legs, bless her, but has the most awful confirmation and shouldn't be able to do what she does.

P.S. If your mare ever wants to try her hand at Baroque riding displays just send her over, she's lovely!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

See pic above yours of the grey and that'll maybe shine a little light on why she can sit - plenty of articulation of the hind joints (not just hocks, BTW, also hip & pelvis), set-on of the neck & head, front legs a little forwards on the body. I also have a half Friesian mare who is the best thing on 4 legs, bless her, but has the most awful confirmation and shouldn't be able to do what she does.

P.S. If your mare ever wants to try her hand at Baroque riding displays just send her over, she's lovely!

Thank you, I think I know what I'm looking at but then it's all new to me so then I'm not sure .

She is lovely when behaving but not so much when doing acrobatics above the ground, though I think she would look fabulous in Baroque displays I'm not convinced you'd want her really .

P.S. the grey is beautiful, and is that you riding?

x x

 

[Cortez]

Thank you, I think I know what I'm looking at but then it's all new to me so then I'm not sure .

She is lovely when behaving but not so much when doing acrobatics above the ground, though I think she would look fabulous in Baroque displays I'm not convinced you'd want her really .

P.S. the grey is beautiful, and is that you riding?

x x

Yes, that's me, and a very rare example of me riding with a helmet on (it was a Riding Club do). I'll see if I can post a pic of us at the day job.

 

[Cortez]

This is a half Friesian mare; this is what I do with my horses and why a "modern" type won't do.

 

[Auslander]

See I think he is lovely, could you possibly point out what problems occurred and if relevant what conformation/bio-mechanics contributed? Was he trained for dressage from a baby and when did he breakdown? Sorry if you'd rather not answer these questions, I'm just genuinely interested .

x x

Don't mind in the slightest! He has arthritic changes in hocks and stifles, and proximal suspensory desmitis - hasn't broken down as such, but he' isn't right behind, and hasn't been for a long time. Sometimes he's sound and fine to work lightly, sometimes he's lame. He's just terribly fragile - bless him.

He's 17 now, has been produced as a dressage horse since the age of 4, and until he started going lame, he was working GP at home, and competing PSG. I cannot fault the people who had him before me, he's always been carefully produced, and there is very little with his conformation that would indicate he would break down.

Although he's muscled in a sporty way - years and years of training, he has elements of draft horse which are more noticeable when he is unfit, when it is obvious that he is a puller, rather than a pusher. He does have a tendency to curl the front end up and power along on his shoulders, with the back end active but not engaged. It can be corrected so he works properly, but he finds it easier to charge along with his nose on his chest!

For me, he is a bit weak in the second thigh, slightly straight through the hocks, and camped out behind, with long cannon bones - and he's a bit light of bone for such a big horse (17.1hh). He's also very short in the back for a horse of his size, and although that's supposed to be a good thing, I think too short can lead to issues in the same way that too long does. He gets excessively tight over his back, which in turn makes his second thigh tight, which makes his suspensories sore - it's all a bit of a vicious circle. If I do lots of hacking, stay off deep surfaces, and do a lot of flexibility work with him, he's fine, but to get to that stage, I have to work him through a few periods where he is unsound for a few days. Its very hard to know what to do - as work is good for him, he's a lot more comfortable when he's semi fit and in work, but it makes me cringe when he feels unlevel for those few days!

 

[Goldenstar]

This is a half Friesian mare; this is what I do with my horses and why a "modern" type won't do.

Ha , long coat , feather( or part of dead animal ) attached to hat ,nicked the boots from a cat in a pantomime ,Clearly a classical person.

 

[JFTDWS]

This is a Spanish horse, quite light but very Baroque in his shape and movement. Has all the carrying power you'd ever need and does piaffe, passage, etc. with a smile. Hasn't got the length of trot you'd need to be competitive in modern dressage, but is pretty much my ideal for what I want to do and has all the "sit & carry" that I'm looking for.

Gorgeous!

Looks like a better bred, Spanish version of Fergus Sorry

 

[PolarSkye]

A first Gen warmblood! More risk than two known WBs that cross knowing you've got the best of the draft and the hotblood from several generations ago, but if the genes work perfectly...

Ha! You wait until I tell the owner she has a warmblood on her hands . Being serious for a minute, I am genuinely fascinated by this little foal . . . sire's line has some amazing quality in it and the dam is nicely put together . . . however, we all know that that could mean squat in the grand scheme of things . . . but so far her temperament is wonderful (bold, friendly, calm but not rude) . . . she isn't being over handled but is relatively trusting of people . . . she is a tad long in the pastern but otherwise is a nice shape, is nice and strong and has a lovely little canter on her (but then she is only two weeks old - today).

As I said before, it will be very interesting to watch this young lady grow up. Her "posh" name is Sequoia Amazing Grace . . . graceful she certainly is.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Gorgeous!

Looks like a better bred, Spanish version of Fergus Sorry

You're not wrong there . . . but then I am rather partial to Fergus.

P

 

[Caol Ila]

Compare it to this. For fun, here are pics of my Shire-TB cross. Same as Auslander's. Except she is 21, 16.1hh, sound, but got as far as medium-ish before she told me where to shove my dressage ambitions. She's willing if she thinks she can do it, but lacks that extra bit of "try" when really pushed. When things are physically difficult, she just says, "Nah... don't think I can be bothered." Never mean or silly or stressy about it -- she is the master of calmly ignoring aids if she thinks you are being daft. Dunno.... maybe that has kept her sound all these years.

I want a Spanish horse as my next horse.