The BUTE debate

[monstermunch]

I have had a long standing view that long term use of bute should be avoided at all costs and absolutely do not agree with the use of it to keep a horse in competition or for social use. However having had a conversation with someone regarding this they did make some valid points so I would love to get people's views on this. I do believe it has it's place and I'm not arguing about it's use completely. Just it's use in order to keep a horse under saddle and in compeition.

This person said:
"If a horse of 14, which is roughly 60 in human years, has arthritis that causes intermittent lameness and discomfort what is wrong with making his life easier? If that horse does not want to retire because he loves his work and competition but can be made comfortable by low dose pain killers surely that would promote his quality of life! You wouldn't leave a 60 year old human in a wheel chair in pain with arthritis if giving them pain killers meant they could continue an active and happy life would you?"

What are your opinions?????

 

[Wishful]

Depends on the exact circumstances, but generally no.

I am anti-painkillers in general in most situations, and would almost never do any form of sport on any form of painkiller.

For me, I need to know if something is hurting so I can make an informed decision whether or not to stop what I am doing.

That said, this year I have done sport on painkillers twice.

Once was at a big team competion (fencing) and I didn't want to let the team down. The other time was skiing, when I was a bit tense (due to fear of falling down mountain) which made my muscles tense up and hurt, which made me even more scared and tense and even more difficult to ski properly - hence more fear... The painkillers meant I could break the cycle and relax my legs, letting me ski properly, so I wasn't tense and could get over my fear without pain!

That said, being human, I can make an informed decision whether something that hurts is serious or just irritating. I know my body and know that particular types of pain are a bad idea, and other types are just muscular. It's not fair to mask pain in a horse, as it doesn't know the pain is being masked, so can't be careful because of it.

I wouldn't approve of buting up a horse so it could work, unless the horse needed to work, either for mental or physical health reasons (e.g. goes nuts if off work/arthritis that is better with light exercise). If the horse was of a type that would be really unhappy retired, fair enough, as it would never be able to have a happy retirement, so its life would effectively be over whenever it retired. If the horse would be happy out and grazing in a field with its friends and working it on bute would make it worse/less likely to be able to enjoy retirement, then it's not really fair to make that decision. Most horses would fall into the second camp...

 

[monstermunch]

Your views echo what I think but the horse in question that this person was talking about would be absolutely miserable retired. Additionally he is an extremely talented competition horse and does love his work. I also think that pain is there for a reason i.e to tell you something is wrong and threfore masking the pain will merely cause further problems.

 

[GatefieldHorses]

We have a 6 yr old with navicular and ringbone. He is not even field sound without bute.
So in some cases yes i think bute is acceptable

 

[rcm_73]

Ditto. My mare currently isn't even field sound without bute. She has bone spavin and I am currently just trying to keep her comfortable until I can get her xrays done, I don't think there's any harm in that and the vet has actually told me off for not working her whilst on the bute, as the impact on the joint would encourage the bone to fuse quicker.

 

[georgiegirl2]

I dont believe horses should be competed on bute. It is obviosly not healthy or appropriate for them to be doing that sort of work if they require bute to do it pain free. On the other hand an older horse who needs it to stay comfortable and go for gentle hacks etc, i think its fine. Lots of elderly people regularly take paracetomol or ibuprofen to stay comfortable in day to day living, isnt giving an older arthritic horse bute the same thing?

 

[EquestrianFairy]

Echo some of the above, i have a 9yr old who isnt field sound unless on danilon.

 

[custard]

Okay, I have low back pain which is caused by wear and tear that the Doc would expect to see in a 40 year old that's led a pretty active life. I take one Voltarol tablet a day with no ill effects but apparently it can irritate the stomach long term.

If I forget it for a couple of days I get really nasty sharp pains and am not a fat lot of use so the drug helps me live an active useful life, I don't plan being given the bullet just yet!

What I'm saying is there's nothing wrong with giving it for low grade pain to keep a horse in moderate work and comfortable.

 

[foxviewstud]

i think bute is a horrible one as have heard from many studs they will not give to broodmares as can harm or kill the foal. but i also think if you keep a horse on painkillers you are covering up a problem and then to work that animal in a competition is asking for trouble, pain tells you when enough is enough but if you mask that pain you wont get that massage and possibly end up doing a lot more damage that may not be repairable. i think the same in humans as i know an older chap whos back is really bad and he takes medication to mask the pain and really suffers for doing it as he thinks he can do everything no problem, but soon regrets doing it. i also think that if your horse is permenantly not even field sound then the decision should be made to let the animal go with its dignity as the level of painkillers you will have to give will go up and up when the body becomes immune.

 

[monstermunch]

The discomfort this horse would be in is caused by arthritis and not muscualr or ligamentous. you would therefore not be covering up an injury as such. Arthritic conditions will inevitably get worse over time and is a natural process of life. Some horses suffer with it earlier than others just as with humans. This horse receives regular treatment regardless of his arthritis to keep him fir and healthy. I may need to stress that he is not lame with it currently but does on occassions show discomfort.
I am extremely interested in all these opinions so please keep them coming. Though my mind is still not swayed on allowing horses to compete on bute (I think it's unethical) I do think that far too many people write horses off with arthritic conditions that can be well managed. The debate continues!!!!

 

[monstermunch]

Just another quickie. It is probably important to point out the fact that many elite athletes in top level sport compete on pain killers as at their level they are never usually 100% niggle free. I am not saying that i condone this but it's another interesting fact to compare with the horse world!

 

[Tia]

....but a horse which is 14 years old is not equivalent to a 60 year old person - it is equivalent to a 30 year old person. http://horses.about.com/library/calcs/blagecompare.htm

Bute most certainly has it's place and for an old horse I see nothing wrong with keeping it on a maintenance level. I don't agree with it's use to keep horses in competition.

 

[Madam_max]

Thanks Tia, how sweet Corroy is the same age as me

 

[claire1976]

My 15 year old mare has ringbone and arthritic hocks. I have tried all the natural remedies without effect and now have to consider long term bute. She is not ready to retire as she clearly loves to ride out. She is kept fit and healthy and light exercise is good for her. I don't have an issue with keeping her on a small dose of bute long term to help her. Without it she would either be field bound and miserable or pts and neither of us are ready for that.

 

[Horsey_Gal]

I have a 14yo mare who has arthritis - the vet told us to put her on bute and keep up with regular exercise to keep her joints moving. I don't agree with giving bute in order to compete, i think you will just make the situation worse as the arthritis will get worse, i don't think it's fair on the horse.

 

[Nudibranch]

Phew thanks Tia - was thinking about the 14 = 60 human years there and trying to get my head round it. Luckily my 13 year old is not quite ready for retirement then!

On a more serious note I don't believe horses should be allowed to compete on bute. Pain occurs for a reason, its the body's way of defending itself. I am totally with the school of thought that says no. HOWEVER I also agree with everyone who believes bute is appropriate for arthritic conditions and the like, where there is no acute injury or disease. One thing I'm interested in is opinions of bute "substitutes" e.g. No-bute (devils claw)... not wanting to hijack the original purpose of the post but I do have an interest, having started to use it on my 22 year old.

 

[loopylucifer]

my 18yrs old is on one danilon per day and has been for last year likley to always be on now has. was always of the tought that bute was just tomask the painbut in our case she is only 3/10th lame behind working her on bute means she can keep moving which actually makes her less lame it just helps her out and juging by how she was the last few wks she is deff feelingvery well for it!!!!

 

[amandaco2]

loq dose long term bute from teens onward is unlikely to cause illness to a normal horse to shorten his life.
i would rather a pain free horse was with me for a shorter time than longer but in mild chronic pain the whole time!
as to competing i wouldnt compete on buted horses anyway!

 

[FMM]

I understand that under FEI rules bute is legal therefore horses can show jump at international level using a certain amount of bute.

In the show ring it is 100% forbidden.

 

[EquestrianFairy]

I disagree FVS, just because a horse isnt field sound at the moment doesnt justify being PTS!!!

That comment upset me, i have spent every moment getting my mare to where she is today and at one point she went completely sound (although, still unable to be ridden) I then started treating thrush and because of this every time i lifted up her foot i was putting pressure on her joints and (Ironic or what!!!) her ringbone flared up again which made her go lame.

So, currently she is not field sound and is on danilon- the chances are her ringbone has fused in such a way so that she may always walk unlevel forever more even when it settles down and she can come off the danilon.

I am still in favour of horses with arthritis to have bute or danilon, however im not sure how i feel about competing horses on it. Id probably be inclined to disagree.

 

[Shantor1]

I remember this debate being around in the mid 1980s! It sprang up when it was found that some showjumpers were masking lameness so they could compete. A furore ensued and hence why today all competition horses are randomly dope tested for their welfare. No I'm not against using bute to help the quality of life for an ageing horse but would not advocate using it just so you can compete your horse.

On a personal note, my 35 yo cob will not take bute but he accepts a herbal solution and this makes a notable difference to him. He becomes lively and very mobile but he stiffens up and goes lame without it. However, even then I consulted the vet first to check he wasn't suffering from something else.

For any decision on the whether to use bute, it requires a horse owner/rider to take a balanced view but to always put the horse's interest first, not their own.

 

[lornaA]

I think it depends on why the horse is on bute. i wouldn't use it to mask an injury but i would consider it for a condition such as arthritis so long as it has been properly diagnosed by a vet.

 

[lornaA]

are you sure that bute is allowed by the fei? I thought it was a totally banned substance in competition horses! what are the rules concerning is use under the bsja and british dressage?

 

[Chex]

[ QUOTE ]
....but a horse which is 14 years old is not equivalent to a 60 year old person - it is equivalent to a 30 year old person. http://horses.about.com/library/calcs/blagecompare.htm



[/ QUOTE ]

Glad you posted that, I had a horrible moment of thinking that Chex would be over 100

lol

 

[hussar]

I'm totally against horses being competed on bute as it will mask other injuries and could result in much worse damage. But my now 17yo Arab was retired at 14 with navicular and has been on a low dose of bute daily for the past year. It keeps him sound enough to hack out, which he enjoys, but I wouldn't dream of even taking him on a Pleasure ride (he used to do high-level endurance) on bute.

I know that long-term use of bute can result in liver damage but as he's 17 with a gradually worsening lameness I don't think I'm going to have to worry about the very long term. Meantime I can keep him painfree and happy.

ETS: re FEI, I'm sure that the FEI rules for endurance rule out bute or any other painkiller for competition.

 

[dieseldog]

Bute is illegal for FEI competions but it is legal for BSJA National Classes.

If it means your horse can keep going I don't see the problem in giving it the equivalent of an asprin a day.

 

[Alibear]

I really think we are mean when we refuse to give pain relief to our animals yet happily take it ourselvs.

I think the over riding rule is if you know what is causing the horse the pain in the first place and that it can't be "cured" then it's ok to give them a low dose pain killer to keep them comfotable.

Giving bute long term to make your horse sound without knowing the reason behind the lamess is sticking your head in the sand somewhat I feel.

 

[Flibble]

I know this is a touchy subject and I believe that it all depends on why you are giving the horse but. If you know it is uncomfortable and bute will help then its ok.

When I am getting old and lame I might need a dose of Ibuprofen to get me into the saddle.

Yes the horse does not have a choice we make it for them so is that a good enough reason to say pain relief is wrong because he/she cant request it ? I think not.

 

[Mistyrocks]

I agree with long term use masking the problem, and making it was also damaging there livers, however it is useful if your horse suddenly comes in hopping lame with a tendon injury, and it makes them more conformable. It is useful for old, stiff horses to make them slightly less stiff. One of the horses i know reacts badly to bute and gets severe diarroera anyone know why bute causes this?

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

It depends on what the bute is used for. If it is an old horse with arthritis and used to help him stay a bit more comfortable then I am all for it.