The Derby.......

A

Alec Swan

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.... and all that money that the good sheikh has ploughed into one horse, in a rather vulgar attempt to buy success.......

....... Oh Dear, what a pity, never mind! ;)

I shouldn't gloat, should I, but TEE HEE! :D

Alec.
 
Aahahaha my tip won :D (On my rare tipping occassions they usually come last)

Agreed with Alec, was cheering on ballydoyle and ruler of the world, race was lost for dawn approach in the first 2f. What a shame for sheik mo, i really sympathize :D.
 
Just catching up on the Derby and I am so glad that a Ballydoyle got another Derby with a Galileo horse. The Seikh must be spitting feathers!
 
It was also great to see the Yorkshire horse Libertarian, run such a good race. Wish I had, had the courage to go in our local betting shop & back him each way.
 
EAST KENT said:
Unfair statement.The colt was fighting his jock from ten lengths out,and simply expended his energy before it was needed.I would imagine the owner will blood test the horse himself to look for a reason.
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Having only just managed to actually watch the race I would say that no matter the pace of the race, whether the horse settled or not it quite simply wasn't going to stay a mile and a half. But at least connections know that now and can drop back in trip.

The winner was very impressive. I like him a lot and I think he may well be able to live up to his name -Ruler Of The World. The other one that caught my eye was Mars - he didn't get a clear run and I think there will be more to come from this horse.
 
My suspicious nature wonders if a deliberately slow pace was set in order to trigger Dawn Approach into fighting his rider. If it was, good tactics, it won them the race.
 
pip6 said:
My suspicious nature wonders if a deliberately slow pace was set in order to trigger Dawn Approach into fighting his rider. If it was, good tactics, it won them the race.
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That was an opinion already voiced by the commentary team, claiming that the early pace was "funereal"! As you say, they were there to win the race, and a horse such as DA, who's more accustomed to a mile, is likely to want to up the pace. Clever tactics, I'd say! ;)

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
That was an opinion already voiced by the commentary team, claiming that the early pace was "funereal"! As you say, they were there to win the race, and a horse such as DA, who's more accustomed to a mile, is likely to want to up the pace. Clever tactics, I'd say! ;)

Alec.
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I think that a ruling should be made that yards can't send more than 3 runners. Ballydoyle moulded that race, slowing the pace, running a pack of thoroughbreds; they wanted to win & win they did. It didn't seem a fair race in that respect, not sporting anyway.
What do we get....another Galileo for their mega Northern Dancer dominated stud.
If there were less Ballydoyle runners other stables might be more tempted to run their horses & we would get a more interesting race. It has gone a bit flat for me.
 
Why not send more than 3 runners if you have the firepower for the race? You seemto have a bee in your bonnet about Ballydoyle.

Part of racing is tactics. Ballydoyle needed a steadier pace for their runners, which backfired sllightly as their pacemaker didnt break well. If Godolphin wanted a faster pace then they could have put a pacemaker in the race but I don't think they have anything with enough talent to pacemake this year.

Tactics!
 
Regardless of who owns the horse and recent events, I thought that watching poor Dawn Approach run like that one of the saddest sights of this flat season. Everyone in the preliminaries had been saying how chilled and relaxed he was, then within 10 strides of the off he was not just taking a hold, but blindly bolting. Absolutely terrifying. It was the sort of performance that runs the risk, not just of physical damage, but mental scarring as well.

I can quite believe that AO'B's team set the race up to unfold as it did, and I agree tactics are crucial, but I am just relieved that both Dawn Approach and Kevin Manning came home together and in one piece.
 
EKW said:
Why not send more than 3 runners if you have the firepower for the race? You seemto have a bee in your bonnet about Ballydoyle.

Part of racing is tactics. Ballydoyle needed a steadier pace for their runners, which backfired sllightly as their pacemaker didnt break well. If Godolphin wanted a faster pace then they could have put a pacemaker in the race but I don't think they have anything with enough talent to pacemake this year.

Tactics!
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I admire O'Brian's skill & he clearly has a real connection with thoroughbreds & the horses trust him & he them. My concern is their policy of promoting one blood line to the exclusion of others. Someone told me they are trying to diversify the blood. That's my gripe.
They are extremely good at planning matings & basically all they do.
However there isn't the competition & it is making racing less interesting. I understand what you are on about with tactics though.
 
Daffodil said:
Regardless of who owns the horse and recent events, I thought that watching poor Dawn Approach run like that one of the saddest sights of this flat season. Everyone in the preliminaries had been saying how chilled and relaxed he was, then within 10 strides of the off he was not just taking a hold, but blindly bolting. Absolutely terrifying. It was the sort of performance that runs the risk, not just of physical damage, but mental scarring as well.

I can quite believe that AO'B's team set the race up to unfold as it did, and I agree tactics are crucial, but I am just relieved that both Dawn Approach and Kevin Manning came home together and in one piece.
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I agree,it was disturbing to watch,serious injury to horse or jock was a real possibility,not too sure if the bland word "tactics" is sufficent myself.
 
To be honest I had thought he'd been stung by something, as he was so quiet even going into the stalls and then suddenly fighting his rider, so yes he was a spent force.
 
Echo Bravo said:
To be honest I had thought he'd been stung by something, as he was so quiet even going into the stalls and then suddenly fighting his rider, so yes he was a spent force.
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He is a miler EB and used to going a lot faster. At least the tactics used by Ballydoyle were within the rules of racing..............
 
Echo Bravo said:
To be honest I had thought he'd been stung by something, as he was so quiet even going into the stalls and then suddenly fighting his rider, so yes he was a spent force.
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The transformation was odd at the very least, I'll agree. It would be worrying to DA's owners and Trainer to see such behaviour, and for both the horse and the jockey to be at such risk. The horse was on the point of bolting, and I think his jockey did well to contain him.

justabob said:
He is a miler EB and used to going a lot faster. At least the tactics used by Ballydoyle were within the rules of racing..............
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As a mile horse, and considering that his exit from the stalls, may have been his frustration at wanting to get going, even had the initial pace been taken up by the rest of the field, would he, DA, have had enough left in him for the extended and final half mile? Every indication was that the horse was balanced and sane, until the gates opened.

If Ballydoyle were so convinced that progressing at a sedentary pace, would throw the horse out of balance, why did they bother entering 50% of the field?

Was it the intention of the 51% share holder to run him, even though the distance would not have been ideal? Was there any hint in the trainer's approach to the race that the distance was too great for the horse? It's all speculation I realise, but if we go back to E_B's post, that was a very strange, almost startling reaction.

Presumably any horse which runs in such a way, which couldn't have been predicted, would be blood tested after the race. Not in the expectation of finding any illegal substances, but in the hope that there may be another reason for his behaviour. Would I be right?

To his credit, Kevin Manning stopped riding the horse when there was no chance of him even achieving a place. Seeing him disappear out of shot, I honestly wondered if the horse had broken down.

Thinking about the whole question, further, there are I suspect, further questions to be answered.

Alec.
 
Honeylight said:
I think that a ruling should be made that yards can't send more than 3 runners. Ballydoyle moulded that race, slowing the pace, running a pack of thoroughbreds; they wanted to win & win they did. It didn't seem a fair race in that respect, not sporting anyway.
What do we get....another Galileo for their mega Northern Dancer dominated stud.
If there were less Ballydoyle runners other stables might be more tempted to run their horses & we would get a more interesting race. It has gone a bit flat for me.
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But why SHOULD Ballydoyle have to reduce the numbers of runners they have in a race? Is there a reason they shouldn't try their best to win a race?
Aidan O'Brien is undeniably one of the greatest trainers in the history of flat racing and it's a privilege to watch his horses run.

He almost always puts pacemakers in races, especially big races, for the specific reason of setting a pace that his horses need. There is no need to insult the man or the stable for just being intelligent.
Why Jim Bolger didn't put a pacemaker in there for DA, I don't think we'll ever know. Frankel always had a pacemaker in his races in order to stop him getting too fizzy as well.

In all honest, it was sad to see DA fade out so rapidly, but in a way, I'm not surprised. There was nothing to suggest he'd make the distance in his breeding or his form. It's the exact reason Frankel was never put into the Derby.

I think Jim Bolger was probably coerced into doing it but DA's new co-owners, considering last year he stated that he wouldn't put the horse in the Derby and 'lo and behold, new co-owner and he's put into the Derby as soon as he wins the 2000 guineas.
 
Well it was an interesting race- i was there ruler looked impressive going over the line- still plenty of running left.
Plus i put my money on him! DA just didn't look right from the off.
 
Indeed Dawn Approach was totally chilled out in the paddock,going to the start,loading..so what on earth caused the explosion?I think something rather more than being a miler ,it needs more explanation..stung? Maybe,it was out of character,he may well not go the distance,it is the odd behaviour that puzzles.
 
Jim Bolger is quoted as saying he hd no idea what was wrong with DA and that the pace of the race should have suited him. He did say why was DA so close to another horse in the stalls, and that investigation was needed. He is concerned it might effect the horse in his future races.
 
Honeylight said:
I think that a ruling should be made that yards can't send more than 3 runners. Ballydoyle moulded that race, slowing the pace, running a pack of thoroughbreds; they wanted to win & win they did. It didn't seem a fair race in that respect, not sporting anyway.
What do we get....another Galileo for their mega Northern Dancer dominated stud.
If there were less Ballydoyle runners other stables might be more tempted to run their horses & we would get a more interesting race. It has gone a bit flat for me.
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Interesting comments. Whether it's right, or not, for one yard to swamp the field with runners, and so attempt to dictate the race, is for the officials to decide. Dynasty's rise and they fall, and Ballydoyle will be no different.

O'Brian has denied that the orders were for the race to be slowed, and we'll never know the truth of that, but the counter question could be "Should the Ballydoyle horses have run the race to suit the beaten favourite"?..... and the answer, of course would be an emphatic "No". As you rightly say, they were there to win, and win they did!

It would be interesting to know where the connection is in the time scale of the major shareholder voicing an interest in the horse, and the decision to run him in the race in question. Bolger's no fool, and he would surely have had doubts about the trip, and considering that he bred the horse, and would know every single minutiae of that horse, I wonder if the decision to run the horse, was the trainer's.

I suspect that though less dramatic, we have another "Devon Loch"!! ;)

Alec.
 
It must have been a massive disappointment for Jim Bolger and connections. Through history there have been owners who have invested hugely to get a Derby winner, and yet it has always eluded them.


Like Champion jockeys trying to win the Grand National. That's racing.
 
The pace should have played to the suspect stamina of DA though. It's a given that if you run a horse at a trip above what you think his stamina levels may extend to, then you want to put him to sleep at the back.

What happened was nothing to do with the pace of the race, and all to do with what went on in the horse's head. He bolted. He didn't just run a bit free, he went blind running and Kevin was remarkable in hanging onto him as long as he did.
 
No matter how the race was run, Dawn Approach was not going to stay the strip, even in the back of a horsebox! It was sad to see him so wound up, but like Dubai Millenium, he should never have run in the race.

I'd be worried next time he came out whether he had any lasting psychological trauma from the experience of bolting and then tiring. Perhaps JB will drop him to G2 to give him a confidence booster over a mile.
 
pip6 said:
My suspicious nature wonders if a deliberately slow pace was set in order to trigger Dawn Approach into fighting his rider. If it was, good tactics, it won them the race.
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That is eactly what they did - the owners of New Approach will wonder for many years why they did not field a pacemaker - Very tactically won race - good on the winner - but gutting for New Approach - and shame on everyone here making the doping gags....not the same trainer - and why would you want to see a lovely horse alligned like this?
 
He jumped off sideways and banged himself,so says trainer,so he just flipped.Hope he does`nt now have problems over the start stalls.
 
There are very few doping gags on the thread, the vast majority are discussing tactics & breeding. If a stable wan'ts to pay entries to try & run the race, it's fair game. Anyone could attempt this & that they dominated by going slow was a big risk to take. No reason why DA couldn't have had a pacemaker supplemented. That's down to connections, doing what they think will give their horse the best chance.

Everything was above board & it produced an excellent winner. So that distance doesn't suit DA, he's got his own forte.
 
Ballydoyle did not break any rules and anyone who pays half attention to racing would know they would have their pacemakers in to suit them, its nothing new they do it in all big races. Bolger did say DA had hit the stalls which is what spooked him. I had always liked ruler of the world anyway and knew he would run a big race.luckily Bolger is doing right by taking it real slow now with DA and dropping him back
 
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