The language of equine ears.............

[jojo5]

After watching the French guy ( Pignon?) on Olympia last night, I was wondering about the horses working with him. I have seen him before in the past but never noticed before so much that many of the horses do flatten their ears when he comes past them, and in quite an odd way too, almost sideways and flat, more like a sick horse. I'm not immediately wanting to jump on a 'oh he must be mistreating them' bandwagon; I was wondering if this can also be another type of signal? Perhaps submission to a very strong herd leader ( ie him) or jealousy of the other horses around him? They don't seem to do it every time he is near them, mainly at the start of an instruction. The young stock did not do it as much. Anybody an expert on the language of ears and got any interesting theories?

 

[Enfys]

I just randomly picked a video clip of him, and I see what you mean.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=E8EC8F2A739D608921F9E8EC8F2A739D608921F9

Not in an way an expert but have spent enough time around them to know when to back off.

To me, I read it as a bit of jealousy of the other horses (he must do a great deal of individual work with each horse), concentration combined with submission and relaxation, and a bit of bossiness, as in "Oi - get thee behind me!"

Of course. they are all individuals. Easy to generalise but hard to be specific about a horse in particular without knowing them.

 

[jojo5]

Yes, I wondered about jealousy too.......that sideways position is odd. Have seen plenty of ears pinned flat back, but those were almost a donkey position.

 

[fairyclare]

I saw his display on Thursday and commented on the ears always being flat back when he is anywhere near the horses, then watched a few days later on TV with my mum, we had a long discussion about it - very weird! They do not seem at all happy.

I am neither for or against what he does, just the ears thing really stood out this year.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

I'm absolutely not an expert but I think I agree with Blitzenfys. I think the 'sideways' ears are when one ear is on the trainer and the other is listening out for the other horses, background noise etc etc. Where both ears are out sideways then the horse is generally relaxed. Sometimes the ears are flat back - I think in concentration and more occasionally in anger when another is in their space, or jealousy. Our horses all are quite individual -my son's horse nearly always has both ears forwards when ridden but one frequently flicks back to 'check-in' with the rider. Young cob tends to have his ears back if he is concentrating or learning something new, otherwise they are normally pointing towards the most interesting sound. Old cob just has to pin his ears back and the herd backs off! When he is relaxed both ears flop out sideways - he did this when he was ridden as well as just mooching about or asleep.

 

[Enfys]

I have been looking at clips of liberty horses since this thread came up, it seems to be a common theme, which leads me to think that it is typical amongst horses that have a strong relationship with a trainer, need to concentrate and probably are quite 'forward' characters.

This is a clip from Apassionata:
http://www.alittlethings.com/unbelievable-sylvie-willms-and-her-arabian-in-light-of-the-stars/

 

[jojo5]

Hi Blitzenfys, I had a look at your link to Apassionata. Yes, I can see that her horses also have their ears back. The Pignon horses, though, definitely seemed to have their ears kind of sideways, making a different kind of shape. But you may well be right in your theories!

 

[Bernster]

Interesting thread. I saw it too and thought it looked negative rather than positive but I don't know for sure what the ears were communicating.

Like Celtic fringe, my grey has his ears sideways when we're schooling, which I think is him listening/concentrating as they are relaxed and flicking back and forth gently, not pulled back tight. At Olympia, I'd say they were a bit more pinned back.

I do,love watching their ears waggling about, my other horse has lovely floppy waggly ears which tell a multitude of things !

 

[pennyturner]

Last weekend my daughter hacked out two stallions. One had been reintroduced to the herd only the previous day after a year away, so there was still a considerable amount of 'boy tension' between them. Not unfriendly, but cautious and excited.

We hacked them right alongside each other, and my boy spent the whole time slightly over-bent with his off side ear pricked forward, whilst the ear nearest his friend was out sideways like a donkey, just as you describe.

You'll also see it in driving horses when they're listening closely to the driver for an instruction. It means they're paying very close attention to something that isn't in front of them.

 

[Natch]

Fed Up Fred did a good cartoon on Pignon and ear positions. If you're on facebook Fed Up Fred is easy to find and that post is not too far down.

For me, I found mixed emotions watching Pignon live at olympia for the first time ever. There is no debating that he can do things that most of us can't dream of ever behind able to do. But I do question his methods. I dislike him being called natural horsemanship. From seeing how he uses the whip in his show, I'd say it's a likely bet that they are trained using aversives, I.e. do what you're told or mr whip will get you. Nothing wrong with that per se, but to me there's a conflict in there about liberty vs force. When they are working in a line next to each other what I see is horses pulling faces at each other because they're not happy voluntarily being so close to each other, but they're more obedient (afraid? "Respect"?) to pignon's instructions than they are to each other's body language. I winced when he laid them down... there's a heck of a lot of quick whip wiggling on the backs of their legs to convince quite reluctant horses to lie down, I imagine that causes sore tendons, especially with two performances a day for a week like at Olympia, plus training.

I think the ear positions are a sign of the conflict between obeying pignon and what they would personally choose to do. I haven't noticed in particular the odd sideways thing you describe. Could it be because they'd otherwise be doing X(ears forward, back, swiveled listening, whatever) but they are having to also keep an eye on all the other horses around them?

 

[Natch]

Having just watched the clip yes, I did see a lot of those ear positions. I put that down to awareness being on the horses either side of them, as well as on him. There is a lot for the horse's awareness to have to be split between!

 

[jojo5]

Have just spent ages on Fed Up Fred's Facebook page! Thanks for that link. I absolutely see what everyone is saying about horses paying attention to each other in close proximity, and perhaps not enjoying that. I had just remembered something I had read somewhere on a veterinary siteabout sideways floppy ears being related to sickness and/or tranquillisers necessary for treatment, and was told about this when my boy had a big op in recent years. I am not for a moment ( before HHO descends on me and burys me!!!) suggesting Pignons horses are sick or high, but I was simply really struck by their ' donkey' sideways ears appearances at Olympia this year.

 

[FlyingCircus]

Have always thought horses in those types of liberty performances don't look too happy!

Have just spent ages on Fed Up Fred's Facebook page! Thanks for that link. I absolutely see what everyone is saying about horses paying attention to each other in close proximity, and perhaps not enjoying that. I had just remembered something I had read somewhere on a veterinary siteabout sideways floppy ears being related to sickness and/or tranquillisers necessary for treatment, and was told about this when my boy had a big op in recent years. I am not for a moment ( before HHO descends on me and burys me!!!) suggesting Pignons horses are sick or high, but I was simply really struck by their ' donkey' sideways ears appearances at Olympia this year.

Just to add to this, sometimes horses getting floppy ears when relaxed rather than just sickness/tranquillised. My lad is horsey equivalent of a busy body and his ears are nearly always flying around paying attention to everything, but when he's perfectly relaxed his (under saddle), his ears go floppy.

 

[BBP]

The guy who trained me (for a brief period) also trained with Pignon, from what I gather he is very tough on his horses. Not in a beat them up way but a short sharp reprimand if they step out of line. He is definitely the dominant rather than the friend. Emma Massingale is more my style. Looking forwards to watching her island project this evening!

One thing I will say is that when I try Liberty work with my horse he can get a little ears back if he gets frustrated. I can sometimes middle the cues and make them too similar and then if he tries something and doesn't get a reward and I keep asking he gets frustrated. Obviously JF Pignon is much more adept than I am at giving cues but there is perhaps an element of frustration with them when one is receiving a cue and responding correctly but the cue keeps getting given as another horse isn't listening? I don't know.

 

[jojo5]

Interesting points, KatPT. I just think though that my feeling was that these were different ears to simply 'ears pinned back' or ears listening to something at the side of the horse as others have mentioned .........

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Ear pinning is very complex

My boy ear pins at me every time I walk up to the stable, he never bites or anything he is just a grumpy git.

 

[jojo5]

'Ear pinning is very complex' - so right, HGA-12!!!!! But it's an interesting chat to have on Boxing Day!!! ( is the sun [what sun!] over the yard arm? Might be time for a chocolate Baileys ............)

 

[Enfys]

Ear pinning is very complex

My boy ear pins at me every time I walk up to the stable, he never bites or anything he is just a grumpy git.

One of my mares does this too, if I didn't know that she did it to everyone I would be seriously about her hating me As soon as the tack comes out though she is a happy bunny.

Ear pinning is definitely very complex as you say.

 

[BBP]

I quite enjoyed this video today:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w1YO3j-Zh3g

 

[jojo5]

Thanks for the link to the vid, KatPT, interestingly these horses (Friesians?) whilst having very mobile and expressive ears, do not show the ear positions I originally was talking about seeing in the greys at Olympia ............

 

[ester]

I think there is a lot of communication going on, from a lot of different sources. They clearly aren't all best friends given the double barrelling that occurred before JFP got in the ring on Sunday afternoon, and the chunk that one of the greys tried to take out of the shetland while the shettie jumped over it.

I enjoyed watching the youngsters the most, they clearly knew they were all supposed to standstill but they couldn't resist eating a bit of surface and making faces while they did so .

 

[Clodagh]

If you watch horses living in a herd they don't tend to have their ears forward a lot? I like Pignon's show and I daresay he is boss of the herd but I can't see that is doing any harm.
I had, one summer, a mixed herd of 9 horses and ponies turned out in my paddocks. There was a lot of ear pinning whenever they moved as a herd, particulary going through gateways or approaching the water trough. One mare was lead mare and to me she showed less pressure than the rest of the herd but there was brisk punishment for any trannsgressions, such as trying to drink at the same time as she was.

 

[Dry Rot]

I understand dogs but I'm a beginner with horses. Aren't horses most concerned about being in the herd? I am thinking here that survival in the wild will be dependant on being with the herd and knowing where your mates are. In a wild herd, that is going to be a constant concern, far more important than position in the social hierarchy. Close in is safe, out there is danger. So could ear position be the horse listening to where his companions are rather than social manoeuvrings within the peck order? We tend to think in terms of sight because that is our dominant sense. But it is not necessarily so in other species.

Keeping a pack of hounds together at exercise depends on convincing them that close is safe and wandering off is not (hence 'whipper in'!). The huntsman is always 'the good guy'. I was watching a documentary about wolves the other evening and was impressed by the time the pack spent watching and testing the herd of musk ox, trying to single out the one with some weakness they could exploit. So, if a horse does not maintain cohesion with the herd, it is going to get eaten! Being with the herd is going to be more important to the horse than it's position in the hierarchy, surely? But how do you convince a horse to stay close, or even maintain a certain distance from the herd leader, using commands or body language? That is something else!

Love these threads! More please!

 

[fburton]

... I daresay he is boss of the herd

I'm always intrigued to know what this means. Do his horses consider him to be another horse? If so, a mare or a stallion? If not, then what? He is certainly the boss as judged by his ability to get them to do what he wants, but how much is training and how much "herd leadership"?