The mystery of horses - conflicting opinions and a WWYD

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A Musing

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I've had to re-invent myself, so am here with a new name. Will try and keep this short but realise you may want lots more info.

Vet thinks horse has a sore back and needs topline. Massage lady convinced it's not that. Vet and masseur reputable, experienced and highly recommended.

Horse is 6yo, bought earlier this year, bit green, lacking top line but nice natured. Wasn't in a well fitting saddle then but willing enough under saddle, a bit fiddly on the ground.

Usual checks done -vetting, teeth, new saddle 2 months ago and checked since then, regular massage. Back and ridden work getting better, pessoa lunge once a week but topline not developing as well as I would like. Loses a bit of condition about 4 weeks ago so move onto haylage instead of hay and a bit of mix with chaff and balancer. Otherwise routine stays the same.

Behaviour changes about 2-3 weeks ago, very sensitive when you touch under her belly but not showing any colic type behaviour etc, goes to bite when rugged up, ears back when you touch her belly - all very out of character. Vet says her back is sore (this is after 4 days off and a massage in between). Rest and acupuncture. Back now better, horse still grumpy. We now have bute gel and a non ridden exercise plan for topline.

Back onto just hay and chaff. Vet thinks that isn't likely to be the cause anyway. Wants to rule out the back before we do anything further, next step would be scoping for ulcers. Q me googling ulcers. Doesn't show other signs - eating normally, poo/wee all fine, coat gleaming, has put on a bit of condition with the extra feed, no teeth grinding etc.

I'm going with vet's advice (of course) but not convinced. Bit confused as to how a horse's lack of topline leads to such a deterioration when they are in a better fitting saddle, regular massage, pessoa and 'long and low' suppling work. And why, now that the back seems better this week, is she still very sensitive under her belly, but less so along her back? Does this really sound like a bad back and/or ulcers?

I know you can't give me an answer, as even the vet isn't sure, but would be interested in thoughts please. Sorry for the long tale. Pumpkin pie and gingerbread for having gotten this far :)
 
How hard is she finding the non-ridden topline work, and how frequent is it. Is she suffering muscle pain from having to lift her belly to work? Another thing you may already have checked is how is her udder? Is she worse the further back you go? Heaven forbid but depending on how much earlier this year you bought her is there a BOGOF on the way?
 
Honestly - it's never simple (or maybe I am just disillusioned!)

Firstly I'd say go with your gut - if you think something is wrong then you're probably right!

I suppose the first thing to consider is how you are insurance wise/financially and how much you are willing to invest into diagnostics.

First up I would load horse full of bute. A pretty rudimentary diagnostic but if your horse stays same or gets a bit worse then worth ruling out ulcers immediately. Bute aggrevates ulcers. If horse shows improvement then you may want to focus more on orthopaedic pain to start with.

Ulcers - for the sake of £300 odd quid, you sound like you have sufficient symptoms to do scope and rule out, again goes back to how much you are willing to spend on vets.

If you have a positive diagnosis, still don't rule out back issues - sometimes ulcers are secondary to stress caused by pain.

Back pain is also know to be secondary to hind limb lameness in some instances.

I obviously don't know you or your level of riding / training - but on the assumption reasonably experienced then any horse showing lack of topline combined with other niggly symptoms that aren't resolving IMO would be best referred on for full work up if you think enough of the horse to invest.

Just my take on it, good luck and hope you find some answers
 
ihatework said:
Honestly - it's never simple (or maybe I am just disillusioned!)

Firstly I'd say go with your gut - if you think something is wrong then you're probably right!

I suppose the first thing to consider is how you are insurance wise/financially and how much you are willing to invest into diagnostics.

First up I would load horse full of bute. A pretty rudimentary diagnostic but if your horse stays same or gets a bit worse then worth ruling out ulcers immediately. Bute aggrevates ulcers. If horse shows improvement then you may want to focus more on orthopaedic pain to start with.

Ulcers - for the sake of £300 odd quid, you sound like you have sufficient symptoms to do scope and rule out, again goes back to how much you are willing to spend on vets.

If you have a positive diagnosis, still don't rule out back issues - sometimes ulcers are secondary to stress caused by pain.

Back pain is also know to be secondary to hind limb lameness in some instances.

I obviously don't know you or your level of riding / training - but on the assumption reasonably experienced then any horse showing lack of topline combined with other niggly symptoms that aren't resolving IMO would be best referred on for full work up if you think enough of the horse to invest.

Just my take on it, good luck and hope you find some answers
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I agree with all of this ulcers are often a secondary issue as is back pain it's all tremendously difficult I hope you can work though it all.
 
Dee O'Dorant said:
How hard is she finding the non-ridden topline work, and how frequent is it. Is she suffering muscle pain from having to lift her belly to work? Another thing you may already have checked is how is her udder? Is she worse the further back you go? Heaven forbid but depending on how much earlier this year you bought her is there a BOGOF on the way?
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LOL, the BOGOF really tickled me. I do hope not !! She's had seasons since I've had her. I knew I'd miss something else, she's had bloods done and they came back normal.

It does feel like a needle in a haystack and that I could chuck a load of money at this and still not know but maybe I should just go for ulcer check sooner? I'm thinking non ridden topline work can't hurt and might help but if it is ulcers or other cause eg lameness maybe it can? She's just starting on it and seems fine, but still a grump when you touch around her belly. Her belly is much more sensitive towards the back to the point where I can't groom her. She's normally such a sweetie, gutted to be in this situation and feeling a bit lost :(
 
The grooming thing is something I have experianced with horses with ulcers.
It's all so hard not much help i know its like wading in mud sometimes.
 
I d also go with ulcers.
Ditch the pessoa [ pet hate!] , ride out more to get fit. Take hunting to give pizzazz,optimism and sheer fun- once ulcers dealt with of course
 
A Musing said:
LOL, the BOGOF really tickled me. I do hope not !! She's had seasons since I've had her. I knew I'd miss something else, she's had bloods done and they came back normal.

It does feel like a needle in a haystack and that I could chuck a load of money at this and still not know but maybe I should just go for ulcer check sooner? I'm thinking non ridden topline work can't hurt and might help but if it is ulcers or other cause eg lameness maybe it can? She's just starting on it and seems fine, but still a grump when you touch around her belly. Her belly is much more sensitive towards the back to the point where I can't groom her. She's normally such a sweetie, gutted to be in this situation and feeling a bit lost :(
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It's not unheard of for pregnant ladies to carry on with seasons, then you go on to say that she's far more sensitive towards the back . . . I'd be having a good hard look:D

Of course if it is ulcers you could try her on a course of coligone or similar and see if that sweetens her up a bit.
 
Ulcers sound probable, but you'd get the same symptoms with long term worm damage (I'm seeing more and more of this as people "economise" by not worming and then sell the horse on and it develops these symptoms). I've also recently seen ulcers caused by ragwort poisoning which resulted in severe weight loss and muscle wastage. Another cause of lack of topline/bottom is SI damage, which wouldn't present itself necessarily as back pain or lameness but will cause muscle wastage or inability to build muscle, which in turn can cause stress which in turn can cause ulcers.

What is she like when you touch her between her front legs/girth area?
 
Well the saga continues. Went down to check her last night, lying down, clearly uncomfortable (showing mild colic symptoms) and looking exhausted.

Third vet visit - she has a fever/temp and mild colic. Colic may have been brought on by not eating/drinking due to the fever. Odd that bloods were done last week and normal. Given a big dose of meds, 5 days antibiotics and a tape wormer (she is wormed regularly but just in case). She was more comfortable on a recheck last night but still feeling poorly today.

So the topline programme is delayed. I'm thinking more and more this aint a back issue, more an internal problem. Will get her over this and ask what the vet thinks on Monday but I am thinking:

- maybe just treat for ulcers and see if she improves
- scope for ulcers to rule it out
- bute trial
- wallow in confusion and hope vet has some better ideas next week!

Another back person out today at the yard anyway, so getting a second opinion if she seems ok to treat.

We now have quite an odd set of symptoms in a bit of an odd order. Fever/colic might be unconnected but all seems a bit fishy to me.

Any thoughts/observations? Thanks all. It's awful not knowing what's going on, she seemed really sad last night :( but fortunately got a bit perkier after treatment.
 
Rowreach said:
Ulcers sound probable, but you'd get the same symptoms with long term worm damage (I'm seeing more and more of this as people "economise" by not worming and then sell the horse on and it develops these symptoms). I've also recently seen ulcers caused by ragwort poisoning which resulted in severe weight loss and muscle wastage. Another cause of lack of topline/bottom is SI damage, which wouldn't present itself necessarily as back pain or lameness but will cause muscle wastage or inability to build muscle, which in turn can cause stress which in turn can cause ulcers.

What is she like when you touch her between her front legs/girth area?
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Thanks - she is less touchy around girth/front legs, although still a bit fussy, gets worse as you move backwards. No ragwort in the fields. The SI damage is interesting though as she's not really putting on muscle despite a a reasonable workload.
 
I would scope/treat for ulcers and if nothing shows up, I would get ovaries scanned.

If still nothing showing and no improvement I would get her referred for a full performance loss work up with an appropriate vet.
 
This sounds very similar to one of mine, but he had chronic diarrhea. Mild colic bouts very girthy, didnt like to be rugged etc. Bloods came back clear. Didnt scope for ulcers but we did xray the withers as the other half had a horse in for backing which had broken withers, (the only one that ever beat him) and they mover the same. With my boy it turned out to be IBS!! With the right feeding he was sorted within a week and had put on about 200kg in 3 months, yes he was poor. Try Protexin Quick Fix, the results are almost instant if it is stomach issues.
 
I would look at the scoping first for ulcers. Gastroguard is very expensive just to give it on the off chance.

I would also look into getting a thermal scan done on her as well, this can show up problem areas. I have also used an animal communicator and hair testing, which also showed up the same problem areas
 
Although it's a chore and an expense, a horse with those general symptoms would be seeing the vet asap if it were mine. I wouln't have a back person unless I knew there were a back problem to treat.
 
ulcers......!


mine looked a picture of health and she still had the worst a specialist had seen.......

she showed reguar mild colic signs,,, behavioural changes and others


scopes are about £300 quid....well worth it imo
pm me if you want any more info


i lost the horse 2 weeks ago.......so im always the one at the front who will be screaming "scope"!!
 
If you think it could be ulcers you can try using zantac (ranatadine) tablets for a frew days, you need to give a lot so get them off the internet.

We discussed ulcers with our vet on Monday for our boy, not showing full ulcer symptoms but scours at the least stress and grunts/reluctant to canter. As a precursor to scoping he said they like to do take a dung sample and test for hemoglobin and albumin. His came back clear so we are going to try protexin and if no better do some blood tests.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
siennamum said:
Although it's a chore and an expense, a horse with those general symptoms would be seeing the vet asap if it were mine. I wouln't have a back person unless I knew there were a back problem to treat.
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No fear of her not seeing the vet - vet's been 3 times in the past 10 days and another visit scheduled on Monday. Back people are being used as well as, not instead of, and as vet initially thought it was a back issue. That's not ruled out but having spoken to the second back person (who was brilliant) I do think the back issue is there but it's secondary, primary more likely to be something internal.

Vet advised we get her over this immediate issue with the fever/temp and colic, and then decide what next on Monday. I think I am gonna ask for scoping unless he's got strong views otherwise.

She's blue, I'm blue ! It really takes it out of you in terms of mental energy - couldn't sleep properly and knackered and distracted today !
 
noodle_ said:
ulcers......!


mine looked a picture of health and she still had the worst a specialist had seen.......

she showed reguar mild colic signs,,, behavioural changes and others


scopes are about £300 quid....well worth it imo
pm me if you want any more info


i lost the horse 2 weeks ago.......so im always the one at the front who will be screaming "scope"!!
Click to expand...

:(

Oh dear, how sad. Ulcers def seems to be the top of the list now. Hoping we can crack on on Monday once she's over this immediate treatment, but if she gets any worse, then vet call out #4 !

Makes you appreciate the NHs being there for people.
 
Well, the update is - it aint ulcers.

good news on that score but feel like we are back to the drawing board. Got her scoped last week, no ulcers. Bloods being run again so results should be back soon.

She seems to be over the temp/virus thing that occured part way through (possibly unrelated but who knows). She is a bit perkier but is still very low generally, lacking energy, hyper sensitive under her belly (worse towards the back). Was dragging her hind feet last week like it was so much effort to move but trotted up ok (less than 1/10 lame right hind but she is a bit one sided so that is more likely to be crookedness).

First vet thought it was back, back loads better, not at all stiff but hyper sensitivity remains.

Eating, drinking, peeing and pooing normally. Coat looks good. She's a bit skinny (dropped a bit of weight a few weeks back when work stepped up) but slowly gaining weight. Being fed chaff, balancer and low sugar mix and adlib hay (switched back from haylage just in case).

Will speak to vet to discuss what next, but am at a loss as to what the next step is with these symptoms?
 
You know what, that is a good point, thanks. I initially wondered if it was like the worse season EVER but it's been 4/5 weeks, so unlikely now ! But it's def in that region you know. At least I have one sensible suggestion for when I speak to Mr Vet man again !
 
Hippona said:
Scoping won't show hind-gut ulcers......
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Oh lawks. Vet did say that but he's said she's not a likely candidate for ulcers at all given her care and management. I think hind gut ulcers are less common than stomach? But I shall add that as my second on the new list of things to discuss, as atm it could be anyfink !
 
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