The new dressage superstar - Totilas wins 3 times in a row vs Salinero

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chris_j

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Edward Gal on Moorlands Totilas beat Anky on Salinero 3 times in a row this weekend at the Dutch Champs. Video of the kur here http://www.barnmice.com/video/edward-gal-moorlands-totilas (the horses first ever grand prix special & kur at this show ).

It's going to be an exciting European Champs
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Love the music but not so keen on the grey tailcoat though.
 
for me i dont mind the coat, i thought the music was hideously boring though I am sure the rider thought it dramatic. as for the horse it is built to do the high school movements and is fab in piaffe and passage but I dislike the trend towards horse with such extravagant movement on front that it cannot be matched behind. It could be the camera angle but i thought the extended trot very modest.
 
OMG! That was pretty amazing. The Dutch are just going to swipe the board with everyone in dressage! The one time changes were so straight you just couldn't see them from behind and the passage was massive but looked so supple and easy. WOW...

Tailcoat reminded me of a funeral for some reason
 
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for me i dont mind the coat, i thought the music was hideously boring though I am sure the rider thought it dramatic. as for the horse it is built to do the high school movements and is fab in piaffe and passage but I dislike the trend towards horse with such extravagant movement on front that it cannot be matched behind. It could be the camera angle but i thought the extended trot very modest.

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I agree with the music comment
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and also with the front end not matching the back end - very 'in fashion' ATM though.
 
agree with Lu it has a good piaffe/passage (i like that it really does sit in the piaffe something that seems increasingly rare these days!) and how pleasant to see a GP horse halt at the end of its test
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The extended trot was lacking behind though in great style. Was also not sure on the angle so had a look at few other vids and found this fairly recent one of the same test elsewhere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvUDAlsLo20&feature=related where he is miles away from tracking up!!
 
i think that it was breeding certain characteristics for 'show' that have led to some of the problems affecting pedigree dogs and it bothers me, as it did watching the olympics, that certain horses seem to be doing well when their movement is not correct for want of a better expression.
this is no to say that the collected parts of the test didnt look good, its just that I am uncomfortable that the extended paces seem to be sacrificed these days for a bit more toe flic and knee action.
 
Truly stunning and I dont mind Edward Gal in a grey tail coat, in fact I dont mind Edward Gal in anything... nothing would be even better!!

Lovely horse, I do wonder why a score of 86.5% thats only 8's with the odd 9 thrown in.....come on judges some of that was near to excellent!!
 
and as i said above Hils some of it, from the angle of the video, wasnt. They couldnt possibly score the trot work higher when it was not tracking up in the extended paces. that would drop the collectives also. still a pretty good score though......
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and as i said above Hils some of it, from the angle of the video, wasnt. They couldnt possibly score the trot work higher when it was not tracking up in the extended paces. that would drop the collectives also. still a pretty good score though......
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How can it show tracking up clearly when the front legs and shoulder are so active., its not a question of tracking up, its a question of engagement, collection and connection and he certainly has all of those.... and I disagree with the 'sit' in piaffe, looked good to me....I am worried that too much piaffe shortens the walk but ive seen worse....
 
I am not going to have a big row on here Hils but that is exactly my original point, there is so much 'flash' in front it cannot be matched behind. If truly engaged in extended paces the whole frame and step should lenghten not just the reach of the forelegs. It is not the activity of the FRONT legs with which afficionados and judges of dressage should be concerned. Horses are being bred now for this showy front action which is then shown to not be completely and correctly engaged by their failure to produce a correct extension, mainly because as you rightly say, horses with this type of movement physically cannot. That is not a reason for excusing it.
IMO (which I have expressed to BD) it is failure to recognise a true extended trot as opposed to a flashy one which has lead to a preponderance of horses being bred in this fashion. And that cannot be a good idea. It isnt difficult to see it. The angle of the metacarpal to the ground should be equal in both legs of a diagonal pair. There are some excellent illustrations of this point in a book I reach recently, I will try and remember which, possibly Ingrid Klimke new edition of her fathers book.
and i didn't make a comment about the 'sit' in the piaffe, but it is nessecary for the croup to lower in order for the shoulder to rise and the forehand to become lighter is it not?
However, I do agree with your point to an extent but this horse is built very 'croup low' for want of a better expression and therefore will find such movements very easy. and some of the test, from the views of the videos, was excellent, but that flaw in the trot work will penalised obviously.
 
I'm with Hils on this one, sorry Lou. This horse is something else. His movement is extreme but I think its still harmonious and very connected and through. I think he has a lot of maturing to do as a GP horse and will get better and better. But my word he's pretty good at the moment!

Agree with Hils RE: Edward Gal too
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Lucretia.... I whole heartedly agree the 'we' being lulled into only seeing the huge front leg.... we, ( meaning me and kt) experienced this in France way back in 2003 when flashy horses were doing late changes and horrid walks but beat the correct if not smaller moving horses.....

I do like this horse tho....even tho im not usually seduced by the flashiness....your points are valid and have been taken on board....
 
This horse has amazing talent way beyond "flashy". Look at the pirouettes - you'll rarely see better and these don't come from flash. The piaffe is exceptional (IMHO), and changes very, very good. And he walks well too. I know what you mean about horses that are all front end with nothing going on behind but I don't think this is the case with this one. I think this one is truly amazing. Hope he lasts and stays sound and reaches his full potential - which must surely be Olympic gold.
 
his trot movement is not correct if bigger in front than behind. You of course all know I am sure that most warm bloods used for dressage are descended from breeds that were originally developed as carriage horses, with big shoulders and showy trots as that became the fashion. when carriages were superceeded by cars people started riding these horse and discovered they had this movemnent which looked good in dressage tests and then the original idea of dressage that it should be an example of correct training ENHANCING a normal correct trot got somewhat muddied.
Often these type of horses have weaker hind limbs and are more prone to ailments and injuries in that region regardless of discipline, because they were bred with the emphasis on the front. I am rather alarmed that such an extreme example of front end flash should be so admired, it is not good for dressage or the breeding of horses for dressage.
However, if we could work out a way to breed a few more like the rider....
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However, if we could work out a way to breed a few more like the rider....

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Now This I can TOTALLY agree with
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Love the coat too - wonder if that will catch on here. I can think of a few Brits who would look rather dashing in one.
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I hate it when we are all on liner at the same time!!

Hils, yes agreed. and i do like the horse in many ways he has lovely rythmn in all paces.

Halfstep, you are not wrong but a horse built like that will ALWAYS find canter easier and especially pirouetttes because its is bulit with its forehand higher. But he trot is still not correct despite its doubtless exceelent training from Mr gal!
 
Interesting point about carriage horses. I was taught that hackneys should have hindleg action matching foreleg as closely as possible, and have often been dismayed that some judges do not appear to follow this but do go for the spectacular front end.

This horse performed a very accurate test. However for me he was very slightly overbent, as well as not working so well behind as in front.
 
Very interesting discussion. I understand the feeling of Lou regarding front and back action matching. It is always good to see a horse really flexing their hocks and stifles when showing so much front leg action. However, Totilas does move incredibly uphill and produces his action due to his excellent engagement and balance and not just from a "hackneyed" foreleg.
Have seen some other videos of him where he offers a very "hyperflexed" neck in certain movements. Is Edward trained by Anky?
Also, I think Peter may be a little upset by all the ladies lusting after Edward....
 
I agree with most of Lucretia's points.
This horse is stunning and, imo, better than Salinero in many ways. But, he does display weaknesses due to how he has been bred and produced for modern dressage and to please modern dressage judges.
 
hackneys by the way SJFAN are a slightly different case. their action is very up and down so plenty action but not so much stride length. and we brits were just doing our own thing as usual! carriage and draught horses pull from the front by leaning into whatever harness is being used, there fore much more weight put on good fronts when these breeds were developed look at percherons, and some of the european draught horses. Shires and clydes owe more to Henry VIII great horse breeding programme than they do to pulling things hence their more 'balanced' frame if you like.
and long extravagant strides with front and back legs likely to end up catching horse, traces or vehicle behind. consequently a straighter hind leg with less action better.
and charliebo while i do not entirely disagree with you some of that action comes from the way he is bred and moves naturally in other words from a 'hackneyed' foreleg as you call it. otherwise he would be equally able to shine at extended paces as well. and maybe as he improves he will but as i said before all horse people should spend some time at crufts looking at some of the travesties bred because of concentrating on one triat for fashion or appearance. Noses they cant breathe out of, heads too heavy for bodies, hip displacments..... need i go on?
 
Just a question and please don't shoot me down, but..............
Will Totilas' movement become more correct (?) as he gets stronger and his hind end can become more, dare I say it, engaged??
 
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Just a question and please don't shoot me down, but..............
Will Totilas' movement become more correct (?) as he gets stronger and his hind end can become more, dare I say it, engaged??

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Lets hope so... always the danger that at 9 he has been pushed too fast.....
 
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