The next step on from cloning, first horse embryo edited using CRISPR

[shortstuff99]

I have seen an article today about a team in Argentina successfully editing a horse embryo using the CRISPR technique. H and H article here https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...h-could-be-used-to-enhance-performance-726510

What are your thoughts? I kind of think this takes the luck and soul out of horses. Breeding everything to be the ultimate athlete might make things rather boring!

 

[shortstuff99]

Anyone any thoughts? This technique could also be used to eliminate such genetic issues as fragile foal syndrome or PSSM from the gene pool.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think it's a very interesting development, although probably a long way off being widely used.

As well as helping to eliminate genetic issues, it could potentially help reduce "wastage" in breeding performance horses in the future. Personally, I think this is a positive thing from a welfare point of view.

I am not convinced it does take the luck out of horses- I don't think genetics alone make a top performance horse, the environment it's brought up in and its training also play a part. And, of course, we all know how much bad luck can be a factor in breeding and producing horses.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think it's a very interesting development, although probably a long way off being widely used.

As well as helping to eliminate genetic issues, it could potentially help reduce "wastage" in breeding performance horses in the future. Personally, I think this is a positive thing from a welfare point of view.

I am not convinced it does take the luck out of horses- I don't think genetics alone make a top performance horse, the environment it's brought up in and its training also play a part. And, of course, we all know how much bad luck can be a factor in breeding and producing horses.

In a way I suppose it would make it much more about the skill of the rider? If everyone was starting with the same horse then it would be much more about the skill of the raising and training. However, seeing as it's not a cheap process yet I doubt we will see it for a while!

 

[Wishfilly]

In a way I suppose it would make it much more about the skill of the rider? If everyone was starting with the same horse then it would be much more about the skill of the raising and training. However, seeing as it's not a cheap process yet I doubt we will see it for a while!

On the one hand, I do think that would be an interesting experiment, but perhaps more easily done with clones?

I am not convinced, even if gene editing was cheap/easy, everyone would go for exactly the same horse even for high level competition? I think different riders would perhaps prioritise different things, but I don't know!

 

[shortstuff99]

On the one hand, I do think that would be an interesting experiment, but perhaps more easily done with clones?

I am not convinced, even if gene editing was cheap/easy, everyone would go for exactly the same horse even for high level competition? I think different riders would perhaps prioritise different things, but I don't know!

If it was to become commonplace I imagine it might become a double split competition ie a class for clones/gene edited horses and then one for natural bred horses. That might be interesting!

 

[Wishfilly]

If it was to become commonplace I imagine it might become a double split competition ie a class for clones/gene edited horses and then one for natural bred horses. That might be interesting!

I'd find that interesting, definitely! Certainly more interesting than an outright ban like racing!

 

[Zuzan]

I'm not convinced

If we end up with GM horses it will mean a further depletion of the already very narrow equine genetic pool.. most of the issues in sport horse genetics are directly caused by this narrowing .. our efforts to breed perfect horses has backfired already, this will just exacerbate the issues it will jeopardise the future of the species.

Never mind the moral / ethical issues .. how long before they stick a chip in the horses skull instead of a brain?

Personally I prefer the creative approach to equestrianism .. you adapt and work with the horse in front of you .. that is the real joy .. working WITH nature instead of trying to warp nature to our own narrow ends. It's symptomatic of humans seeking to control things that really they shouldn't as it will backfire on us further down the line.

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm not convinced

If we end up with GM horses it will mean a further depletion of the already very narrow equine genetic pool.. most of the issues in sport horse genetics are directly caused by this narrowing .. our efforts to breed perfect horses has backfired already, this will just exacerbate the issues it will jeopardise the future of the species.

Never mind the moral / ethical issues .. how long before they stick a chip in the horses skull instead of a brain?

Personally I prefer the creative approach to equestrianism .. you adapt and work with the horse in front of you .. that is the real joy .. working WITH nature instead of trying to warp nature to our own narrow ends. It's symptomatic of humans seeking to control things that really they shouldn't as it will backfire on us further down the line.

If you can gene edit, you can remove any genetic conditions relating to a narrow gene pool though? I totally agree that inbreeding/line breeding is really problematic, but I don't think gene editing is the same. And I think realistically it's only ever likely to happen for a handful of top competitive horses.

I agree that there is joy in working with and adapting to the horse in front of you- but many horses cannot/do not stand up to the work asked for them. For very top level competition, might it not be better to ensure that they can?

 

[Zuzan]

If you can gene edit, you can remove any genetic conditions relating to a narrow gene pool though? I totally agree that inbreeding/line breeding is really problematic, but I don't think gene editing is the same. And I think realistically it's only ever likely to happen for a handful of top competitive horses.

I agree that there is joy in working with and adapting to the horse in front of you- but many horses cannot/do not stand up to the work asked for them. For very top level competition, might it not be better to ensure that they can?

The narrow gene pool isn't just a result of line / inbreeding .. it's our whole selective breeding from eons ago that has resulted in the narrow gene pool .. it's universal across the whole species, not just "sport horses" .. gm wont be a guarantee of a horses ability to "stand up to" competition .. it just a further means of selective breeding .. I'm not anti science but it's very half baked science to expect gm to guarantee a horse will stand up to competition .... it dangerously over simplifies the complexity of genetics and the multiple roles different genes play ..

 

[Wishfilly]

The narrow gene pool isn't just a result of line / inbreeding .. it's our whole selective breeding from eons ago that has resulted in the narrow gene pool .. it's universal across the whole species, not just "sport horses" .. gm wont be a guarantee of a horses ability to "stand up to" competition .. it just a further means of selective breeding .. I'm not anti science but it's very half baked science to expect gm to guarantee a horse will stand up to competition .... it dangerously over simplifies the complexity of genetics and the multiple roles different genes play ..

And how was the previous selective breeding done if not inbreeding/line breeding?

I'm not saying GM will 100% guarantee that a horse will stand up to competition, but surely it is an option worth exploring compared to the massive wastage that goes on at the moment? I do agree that in the beginning, it's likely that there will be mistakes made and we need to ensure any experimentation is done in an ethical way.

I'm talking about sports horses specifically because I very much doubt that GM would ever be practicable/desirable for the average leisure horse owner.

 

[stormox]

This is all too futuristic for me - I believe the fun of horses is that they are all different and we as humans have to modify our behaviour to suit them.
Anyway, if they can do this stuff to horses how long before some Mengele minded doctor starts to try it on humans? Not for me....

 

[shortstuff99]

This is all too futuristic for me - I believe the fun of horses is that they are all different and we as humans have to modify our behaviour to suit them.
Anyway, if they can do this stuff to horses how long before some Mengele minded doctor starts to try it on humans? Not for me....

They're already trialing CRISPR on humans to be able to cure inherited genetic diseases and also to produce children immune to HIV (although that one was a sketchy trial and the scientist in China went to jail).

 

[Northern]

This is all too futuristic for me - I believe the fun of horses is that they are all different and we as humans have to modify our behaviour to suit them.
Anyway, if they can do this stuff to horses how long before some Mengele minded doctor starts to try it on humans? Not for me....

CRISPR shows huge promise in targeted gene therapy against some pretty horrific inherited disorders, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. The first clinical trials using it in humans started last year, it'll be pretty exciting to follow the studies over the next few years.

 

[ycbm]

It concerns me greatly. It's great editing out fatal and life damaging diseases in humans, but there's a viable alternative in most horse breeds which is simply not to breed from animals with heritable gene defects.

I think it's a short and very slippery path to creating frankenstein animals. Not all countries are ethical about how they will use this.
.

 

[Zuzan]

And how was the previous selective breeding done if not inbreeding/line breeding?

I'm not saying GM will 100% guarantee that a horse will stand up to competition, but surely it is an option worth exploring compared to the massive wastage that goes on at the moment? I do agree that in the beginning, it's likely that there will be mistakes made and we need to ensure any experimentation is done in an ethical way.

I'm talking about sports horses specifically because I very much doubt that GM would ever be practicable/desirable for the average leisure horse owner.

Selective breeding is not line / inbreeding.. yes they contribute to selective breeding but human selection of which equines are bred .. breeding for endurance is selective breeding for a purpose .. all our breeds even our natives are the result of selective breeding.

The wastage at the moment is a moral dilemma that is the direct result of selective breeding .. and casually saying that mistakes will be made is a bit dire for the results of said experiments .. I would suggest you take a long hard look at your moral compass, I think it could do with some adjustment.

 

[Equi]

Im in a agreement with YCBM. It will just mean literally any horse can be bred, and some most definitely should not be. It also takes away a lot of the fun but then im not a breeder with money on the line and can afford to have the surprise.