The Other Thread: Cockers working and showing

Llewellyn

Llewellyn

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Just to ask are these dogs really in anyway related? I have met several people now who didn't realise they were two diferant types of spaniel believing they were two entirely differant breeds. Do they poses differant traits? Just feel I'm missing something. Are there any major debates...just so I dont put my foot in it! I'm good at that.
 
This is apparently a working/show cocker.....sorry, any excuse :D

29188_1364768452109_1618566101_8670.jpg


This is him at his hairiest and he's no way as hairy as a show cocker! He has the chunkiest paws ever! I think that the difference is also between the American show cocker and the English Show Cocker...

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...page=1&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0&tx=53&ty=27 American Show Cocker

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...page=1&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0&tx=89&ty=53 English show

AlthoughI may be completely wrong!
 
There's an ongoing debate in our own breed (not to mention the English/German split!!!) so will be interesting to read.
Are there working cockers (IE cockers who work) doing well in the showring? And show cockers, who have won in the breed ring, performing on the working field?

I think it's important to also stress, a lot of people see a poorly-constructed/non-standard type breed ring dog and just call it a 'working bassett/cocker/GSD' (for example) when it clearly isn't!
 
CaveCanem said:
There's an ongoing debate in our own breed (not to mention the English/German split!!!) so will be interesting to read.
Are there working cockers (IE cockers who work) doing well in the showring? And show cockers, who have won in the breed ring, performing on the working field?

I think it's important to also stress, a lot of people see a poorly-constructed/non-standard type breed ring dog and just call it a 'working bassett/cocker/GSD' (for example) when it clearly isn't!
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I think there are debates in every breed to be fair!

I don't believe that working cockers would do well against the breed standard BUT I know show types who work.

My friend has GSD's and told me all about the debates....for example how the English GSD's (without the sloping backs) don't have to be hip scored where as the ones which are considered poorly bred by some (with the sloping backs) are closely monitored - is that the right way around? :D
 
Vicstress said:
My friend has GSD's and told me all about the debates....for example how the English GSD's (without the sloping backs) don't have to be hip scored where as the ones which are considered poorly bred by some (with the sloping backs) are closely monitored - is that the right way around? :D
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Not especially. ALL German Shepherds, English, German, Working, Show, Black, White, Pink With Purple Spots, should be hipscored and only low scored animals bred from.

As in Germany, progeny from low-scoring animals can progress much further in the breed and working rings than those with no or high scores, which cannot compete at top levels, those on the German side are more inclined to hip score.

Also the sloping backs thing is a bit of a sweeping statement too, but there have been a tonne of threads on that topic, I could say all English types are long, low, swaybacked, windy-tempered and soft, but that would be an over-generalisation.
 
Well only a slight overgeneralisation ! :p
I think it is a valid point that there is more chance of a show bred dog working than a working bred doing well in the show ring, but then again not sure how many show bred dogs are reallay high flyers in there particular working field, which the working folk might be keen to point out. I am talking in all breeds where it is relevant not just GSDs by the way.
 
CaveCanem said:
There's an ongoing debate in our own breed (not to mention the English/German split!!!) so will be interesting to read.
Are there working cockers (IE cockers who work) doing well in the showring? And show cockers, who have won in the breed ring, performing on the working field?

I think it's important to also stress, a lot of people see a poorly-constructed/non-standard type breed ring dog and just call it a 'working bassett/cocker/GSD' (for example) when it clearly isn't!
Click to expand...

I guess the thing is,if you want a gundog,then you go to a breeder whose dogs do well at field trials,in my area one such as Steve Wanstall.His are working cockers that have truly beaten the rest.As show dogs..oh forget it!If you want a show type,then go for a breeder whose dog`s win well at Champ shows..but don`t expect them to work like a gun bred one will.
There is a huge physical gap,and maybe a gun bred one would be way too active as an ordinary pet dog.
If you want a docked one,then it will be the gun dog,but it`s tail won`t be a "bobble",more like seven to nine inches long...for me,purist that I am,that is still preferable to a yard and and a half!!
 
I just see working and show cockers as two different types with different physical characteristics as opposed to different breeds. Not so sure about temperament as I have no experience of 'show' type, only working types which are very buzzy, always on the go and not the easiest to train!

Any of the working cockers I know are very lean, long in the body and have very fine heads. Their eyes are also less 'sad' it's hard to explain! If I saw your dog out Victress, I would think he is a show type cocker instead :) He is terribly cute!

I don't know, I'm talking rubbish :p :D
 
The difference between the show bred Cocker, and the work bred, is such, that they may just as well be two totally separate breeds, as with the ESS.

One is bred for what it looks like, and the other for temperament, and work ability. For myself, I couldn't give a fig for a dogs appearance. Trainability, is often the responsibility of the "rearer", and the ability, generally the responsibility of the breeder. Though that can easily be transposed!

Cockers, over the last twenty odd years have softened, and become far more amenable. They may have lost a little of their drive, but is that such a bad thing, if it makes them more manageable, for the run of the mill trainer?

I once met Keith Erlandson, a man who was nothing short of gifted, especially with Cockers. I'm sure that he wrote a very good book, about spaniels. I "think", that from memory he had a dog called Speckle of Ardoon. For those who have work dogs, check back through your own dogs pedigrees. Speck will be there somewhere!

There was also a kennel name which was based in Wales, I can't for the life of me remember it, but they had dogs, which would take your breath away! I'm almost certain that the name began with an M, or perhaps a W. Someone remind me, please!!

In my humble opinion, you progress to Cockers, but after you've cut your teeth on Springers!! Not, perhaps everyone's dog, but get the best from them, and there will be no comparison.

Alec.

Ets, GinaB, you're not talking rubbish, you're right. a.
 
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She is such a sweetie!

I was thinking (I get to think a lot, walking in the dark :p) re my statement about non-show types or hobby/pet bred dogs having 'working' slapped on them, and sorry to bring it to GSDs again :o our last bitch, if I saw her on the street, I would have sworn blind was English bred, she was long, short legs, deep body, a heavy type, quite a coarse head for a bitch, very flashy black and gold coloured, back like a table top, with flat feet and a light eye.
But I know for a fact that her father was a German import and her mother was born in quarantine (therefore her mother before her was mated in Germany) but there is no way you could call her 'English' or 'Working', she was west German showlines, through and through.

Personally speaking, I think construction in our working dogs is getting better and better (and no I'm not mad about identikit, huge, black and red gold, exaggerated, loose-lipped, apple-headed dogs either!!!) and plenty of them could hold their own in the showring, if their owners would show them more (I've been guilty of putting a flea in the ear a couple of the working lads about that :o)
We are having more and more shows for (and therefore, incentive to be breeing and campaigning) quality, health tested dogs that excel at all disciplines to try and remarry the breed types following what has undoubtably been a split in the types, and think lots more breeds should do the same.
 
There was also a kennel name which was based in Wales, I can't for the life of me remember it, but they had dogs, which would take your breath away! I'm almost certain that the name began with an M, or perhaps a W. Someone remind me, please!!
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Wernffrwd and Maesydderwen are the two big welsh lines, any Working Cocker worth it's salt will have those in it somewhere.

Personally I think that yes, you get extremes - dogs which have been bred purely for looks and ones purely for work and drive. However, I think that any 'good' dog will look good and work well. Apart from one, all our dogs are small, sturdy Workers. One has been to Crufts and has been commented on by Showing people as to what a good stamp he is, yet he is Parbreck/Wernffrwd lines and you'd be hard pushed to find a better beating and picking up dog - as well as allround brilliant dog!

My Springer is working lines, yet again he still adheres to the breed standard (bar being rather spare of feathering!) :D

I think that yes, the Showing side do struggle to work and perhaps they need to start going back to their roots, but I do wish Worker breeders wouldn't go completely the opposite way! Working bred dogs can still look the way they're supposed to, and can still work without being unmanagable for everyone but professionals! They're are plenty of lines about these days that my Mum can spot a mile off in a pedigree and say she wouldn't touch it unless she was into trialling seriously because they are so bloody hot and flashy!
 
In my humble opinion, you progress to Cockers, but after you've cut your teeth on Springers!! Not, perhaps everyone's dog, but get the best from them, and there will be no comparison.
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Or in rebellion to your Parent's loyalties switching to Working Cockers, and having spent 13/14 years with the needy little cretins ;) :D You end up with the most driven, hard headed Springer you possibly could and long for a needy cretin :D (Not really Otto :D)
 
Thought would look at Pippins pedigree see what was there. (this is Pippin the free dog!) and her father goes back five generations with maesydderwen and wenffrwd!!!
Ever feel your missing something???

Well luckily her poshness hasn't gone to her head and she is still lying on her blankey on the hideous carpet and watching judge judy every morning!

But can someone explain how 6 of her greatx5 grandparents are all prefixxed maesydderwen and four preffixed are wenffrwd surely thats a tiny gene pool to be breeding from is that normal?
 
Llewellyn said:
But can someone explain how 6 of her greatx5 grandparents are all prefixxed maesydderwen and four preffixed are wenffrwd surely thats a tiny gene pool to be breeding from is that normal?
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That's Welsh Cockers for you, all inbred ;) :p :D :D


The prefix doesn't mean they are related, just that they've come out the same kennel. Although the gene pool probably will be small, they like to keep good lines close - line breeding - I bet the same name will crop up a couple of times in the 5th/6th gen.

Have to say though, the Maesydderwn and Wenffrwd lines were very popular for a well - I'll lay money on most Black working Cockers having them somewhere. Wernffrwd Dai Bach was a popular dog for a while, and his off-spring continue to be!
 
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Lol yes they do!
Glad you said welsh cockers and not the welsh generally
I'm a Gwynne who married a Llewellyn - talk about keeping it welsh!
Webbed muchly- Pip and I are going to compare webbedness!
 
Llewellyn said:
Lol yes they do!
Glad you said welsh cockers and not the welsh generally
I'm a Gwynne who married a Llewellyn - talk about keeping it welsh!
Webbed muchly- Pip and I are going to compare webbedness!
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Well I was going to say, you know the welsh, like to keep it in the family, but I saw your username and thought better of it! :p :D LOL!

My Ex is Welsh, Welsh is his first language and my Mum got him to go through all the dog's pedigrees and teach her house to pronouce them properly! :D
 
Ruby and Pippin are related and share the finer smaller head and coat of the worker. Our old cocker Nellie had the same lines also but was slightly less dainty and had much more of the thick almost double coat that you see in more show type dogs.
 
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