The perils of vetting?

[skint1]

I’ve been searching for a horse ( happy hacking low level riding club stuff) for a few months now, found one I liked and did 5 stage vetting which it failed long story but a few weeks later repeated the 5 stage but with different vet and it was still a fail so I walked away. Saw a few more that I didn’t really think enough of to vet then found an older horse I liked so I did a 2 stage vetting which horse has now failed. I say failed because the vets basically said they couldn’t advise I buy horse based on what they observed on vetting. I’ve now spent quite a lot on vettings. The horses owner wants to make some changes and try again.

I’ve never bought a horse like this, I’ve always kind of been given older horses in need of a slower life, this horse could fit into that category but isn’t in my opinion priced that way.

So to my question do vets ever actually pass/endorse a horse or do they always err on the side of caution and emphasise why you shouldn’t? Am I walking away from perfectly good horses who are still happily being ridden that may just need some tlc to be at their best? Has anybody ever bought a horse anyway despite a less than stellar vetting? If so, how did it work out for you? What can you overlook and what is a definite walk away for you? Is it even worth it?

 

[Shooting Star]

I’ve never yet had one fail (or rather be deemed not suited to intended purpose as they don’t technically pass or fail) a vetting in over 25yrs and all bar one have been 5 stage vetted.

If a vet said not suitable for the job to me personally I’d run for the hills, horses cost enough to keep without an expert giving an opinion that you could be racking up substantial vets bills if you use them for your intended purpose any time soon without further investigation.

 

[JennBags]

Yes of course vets do "pass" horses, but they don't pass unsound horses! That's why you're paying for the vetting, you could take the risk and not get one done if you feel confident that the horse will do the job you want it for, but it's pointless paying for a vetting and then ignoring the results.
I didn't get my last horse vetted, I just had a vet check him over for eyes, lungs and heart; and over the previous purchases I've only ever had one fail (which of course I then didn't buy as I didn't want a horse that already had problems!).

 

[little_critter]

My previous horse failed her vetting on a sore back. I assumed it just needed a saddle check / physio.
20 months and thousands of pounds later she was PTS due to an untreatable back condition.
My latest horse sailed through with not a single issue raised.
I now would always vet and never ignore the results. I would also ensure I attend the vetting (I wasn't there for the one that failed)

 

[Bs_mum]

all of ours have sailed through a vetting, the only issue we ever had is my father in law bought a 4 year old Irish type hunter 9 years ago and had it 2 stage vetted. He passed, but the vet told him you’ve got a good 8-10 years with him before I feel he’ll start to show signs of navicular. He went lame after hunt season finished this year (stayed sound throughout) was then diagnosed with navicular. Luckily, not so bad and currently manageable, although he’s not hunting, he still enjoys a plod down to the pub and back.
Listen to what the vet is telling you. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world is honest, and some people will set you up to fail! Unless the vet says something like, horse isn’t sound enough to pass vetting at the moment but I feel in a couple of weeks it might, then yes, got for it. But if an owner said it to me? I’d be worried they would pump it full of enough bute just to get it through.

 

[Starzaan]

I had three fail when I was looking for my current horse, and I’m bloody glad I had them vetted!
Current boy passed with flying colours, including a full set of X-rays, and the vet said he would buy him if I decided not to haha.

I would never buy without vetting. You never know what you might find.

ETA - the horse who failed that I was most upset about (as I had totally fallen for him) was PTS two years later aged 8 due to chronic arthritis and bony changes in the hocks. The vet said he would be crippled within a year. Poor boy was obviously jumped too much too young. Such a shame as he was an absolute dream to ride and to handle.

 

[milliepops]

I would agree with the posts above.
The vet is duty bound to tell you about the negatives they find, passing a horse with issues would leave them open to challenge further down the line if it led to vets bills etc.

There's not a lot of point shelling out for a vetting and then ignoring what it reveals imo. I haven't had a horse vetted since I was a kid and have relied on my own experience plus the input of my farrier husband and physio friend.. but if I was spending more money I'd be more inclined to vet and go with what I was told by that. I've been lucky, only one of mine has been a write off in that time... but of course I don't know what else might be lurking with the rest, that a vetting may have revealed!

I dont think you're ignoring good horses by walking away from these failures. I think what's really happening is that sellers are presenting lame horses that they either hope will pass on the day, or they simply haven't realised theres a problem with them.

 

[be positive]

I have bought and sold 'failures' as well as had them fly through with no issues, a few examples come to mind, bought a horse that failed hind flexions because I felt it was due to him having a minor recent injury rather than anything more sinister, when viewed he moved so actively behind I was happy to advise the buyer to go ahead, that horse flew through a 5 stage several years later with the vet commenting that she wished she saw more horses so good after flexions!
Have sold a few that failed for one reason or another but we actually found something to treat in only one when investigations were done and that was nothing to do with why he even failed, vet said he had a bad back/ hocks, turned out he had a foot balance issue in front, another was failed for 'arthritis in hocks, back and front limbs' no idea how they came to that conclusion on a vetting, he was fully checked, had a few xrays just in case and was showing no sign of changes in hocks or feet, no reason to xray the back, he was sold to a hunting home where he is still going as far as i know and has never been unsound.

As for buying I go a lot on gut instinct, my own experience and use a vetting mainly to confirm the horse is fit for purpose, if it clearly failed on something I had missed at viewing, or could not be seen, then I would follow the vets advice and walk away.

Just to add I agree with mp when she says a lot of people are selling horses they do not know are unsound, often genuinely think they are fine, they are the ones I would pick up and not even consider buying/ selling so I would rarely have a fail, I looked at a pony this week that made me suspicious about his hind limbs and although he seemed sound enough when ridden I am not sure I would have got as far as a vetting if it had been suitable.

 

[chaps89]

I had 3 or 4 horses vetted and failed
I then bought one without vetting as got talked out of it by experienced horsey people. At viewing I said I didn't think she was right behind, we did flexions she was fine. I was desperate for something by this point and bought her.
6 weeks later she went lame (in front admittedly) and started 2-3 years and £18k of vet bills (and she still has unresolved hind end issues so I wasn't wrong at viewing!).

Next one has to pass the most thorough of vettings.

Whether any of the horses I walked away from are still sound or in work, who knows, that's the trouble, you don't usually get to find out unfortunately.

 

[Micky]

I had mine 2 stage vetted and passed, hence I bought him, the first I looked at and trialled failed miserably, at 4 years young, and I’m glad I walked away in hindsight ( or I wouldn’t have had 12 years with my lad now!)..however I did buy 2 others without vetting, call it gut instinct ( I am by no means a pro at conformation etc!) but they were sound as a pound, ones still going at 21 and the other pts at 23 due to field accident...I would trust your vet, frustrating as it may be...

 

[Midlifecrisis]

In the past 6 years I’ve had 4 horses five stage vetted..1 flew through everything with no question and was put to sleep 3 years later. 1 was passed for pony club activities despite having questionable conformation and odd hind leg movement but the vet commented that if she d got to17 years old sound moving like that she d be fine...and at 21 she still is fine. 1 passed but the comment was very unfit but very suitable for my use...and she is.... and the one which failed had COPD like symptoms unsuitable for barn type livery..which is what I am on. I personally like my vet to see my horses..he knows me and my set up and will have to look after them. They are a snapshot of the horse at that time and each horse was vetted with the specific role and use in mind...the higher the buyers expectation for the horse the more exacting the vetting will be.

 

[Goldenstar]

Of course horses get recommended as suitable at vettings .
All of the horses I have here ( except one ) passed vettings .
I have never had a horse for my self that did not pass a five stage vetting .
On your first vetting the vet probably picked up a an issue the owner did not know about that happens all the the time who know what got picked on the second but it sounds like it was serious .
It’s not a peril it’s a step that can save you heart ache and expense and injury .
I had one fail a vetting on my last horse hunt the bill was £800 for the vetting but having a lame four youngster six months down the road would have cost me much more .

 

[Red-1]

I find that the horse is more likely to have a "pass" if you have a full and frank discussion with the vet prior to the vetting. I really feel for vets as some people seem to think a vetting comes with a lifetime guarantee! If they have not had this discussion then they will err on the side of "not suitable' whereas if they know you will be practical about the management and prospects then they are more likely to say "suitable'. Nt that they are being wrong t all, as a lot of whether the horse is suitable or not suitable depends on if the owner is suitable or not suitable to manage the horse correctly. If you don't have that private discussion prior to vetting day then they can't know how you as an owner operate, so have to err on the side of caution.

I have had 3 recent horses (since 2011) have completely clean certificates (bar a touch of superficial mud fever in one), so they are out there. One of them was then easy to sell when she proved not suitable for me (she was huge and hurt my back) and sold within a few weeks of purchase. That was the one with superficial mud fever, which I cleared in the first week, so she was completely clean.

Having said that, I don't X ray. If they feel happy and are bang sound then I feel X ray is a bit of a fishing expedition. Many times an X ray finding is not Bourne out in how the horse goes. I feel they are useful as a diagnostic tool if there is an issue rather than a pre purchase precaution.

Having said that, I have "failed" a whole stack of horses on viewing! They, IMO, would have been a vet fail too. In many cases I don't think the owner was aware.

 

[honetpot]

I not know how experienced you are but perhaps, although I hate them, taking the knowledgeable ‘friend’ may be an idea, who so probably be more dispassionate about what you are going to view.
Being clear with what you want it for with the vet may help decide if it’s fit for purpose.
I had a young horse vetted for my daughter to do PC on, it passed but it had a quite obvious defect that if you were buying something for higher level competition would have ruled it out. I was there at the vetting so that does help as well because they may explain things as they go along.

 

[wattamus]

Not always convinced by vettings.
I've seen horses "fail" settings because they were a bit overweight and that could lead to laminitis in the future..... Which the potential new owner must have known really
My horse passed a 5 stage two months before I bought her (so didn't bother getting another as I stupidly thought it'd be ok and I had the paperwork) anyway three months later I get a health check for all my horses and find out this new one has a cateract, bog spavin, and extremely high liver enzyme count (after an insurance claim we've found it to be reacting to hay). If I'd known that before purchased I still probably would've bought her, but would've had something to argue the price down.
I suppose it depends what they fail on and if that's an issue for you.
I have spoken to my vets since asking why she passed a 5 stage with those issues and they said (liver enzymes aside) they vet horses according to the task you are hoping to do. And as the previous owners wanted to do happy hacking and dressage, the "issues" she had/ has may not be considered to be a reason to fail......

 

[CavaloBranco]

The last 3 horses I've bought all passed a 5 stage. I wanted to sell the first after 4 years together, much to my shock she failed on flexion of one hock. I kept her and she was diagnosed with slight arthritis and had a steroid injection. Roll on 2 years and I sold her at a very reduced price with full disclosure. She went on to have a lovely life and was NEVER lame!! So flexions raise a question mark for me.

 

[milliepops]

So flexions raise a question mark for me.

In which way? not looking to disagree it's just not that clear.
That you would disregard them or that you think they flag something important? It did in the case of your horse, it's just that the thing it flagged was not significant for her performance, but it may have been for another horse.

I do think flexions need a degree of pragmatism, I've taken a few horses for workups over the years and their flexions have been interpreted "with context" of their age and historical workload. on an older horse or one with high mileage I would be less concerned by a matching pair than one leg that gave a positive reaction, I think.

 

[lannerch]

The last 3 horses I've bought all passed a 5 stage. I wanted to sell the first after 4 years together, much to my shock she failed on flexion of one hock. I kept her and she was diagnosed with slight arthritis and had a steroid injection. Roll on 2 years and I sold her at a very reduced price with full disclosure. She went on to have a lovely life and was NEVER lame!! So flexions raise a question mark for me.

Surely your example should confirm that they are useful , it’s not as if there was nothing wrong with your horses hock, the flexion correctly showed up a problem.

 

[spacefaer]

We bought a lovely hunter years ago. We went to see him when he was initially for sale, loved him but couldn't agree on the price, so walked away. We had a phone call from the vendor a few weeks later, saying he'd failed the vet on a hind flexion and would we be interested in him at a reduced price (ironically, less than we offered initially!) So we bought him, aged 10, hunted him for the next 9 seasons and he has just been put down, sound, aged 22.

I hate vettings and I hate flexion tests. They can show something, but they can also be pretty useless. They depend so much on the height and strength of the vet - I've had some vets flex so hard, I swear I heard something crack, and others barely able to lift the hoof. If the same person did a flexion test on a horse every single week for 2 months, I bet you that there would be some weeks that the horse would "pass" and others that he would "fail", depending on what work he'd done that week, and whether he'd hooned around in the field the day before.

 

[Leo Walker]

I dont vet but I only spend money I'm prepared to lose. And the same as IHW I write a lot off before I even go and look. The only one who has ever cause me a problem soundness wise was lame when I bought him so hardly a surprise. He did give me 18 months of amazing experience when I got him right though and I would do it all again tomorrow. If I was spending more than a few hundred quid then I think I would vet.

 

[skint1]

Hi thanks for all the replies, with this last 2 stage I really did try to emphasise this horse wouldn’t be doing anything challenging and that I wasn’t expecting perfection on flexion and that the horse wasn’t fit etc. I think I might need to
develop a better eye or bring someone along with us because in both cases I knew it wouldn’t be perfect but was not expecting a horse to not pass for the easy workload it would have with me. I’m on my phone so can’t read properly so will come back to this later, it’s an interesting topic.

 

[SusieT]

Vets pass horses all the time. You are paying the vet for their experience- bear in mind they see it all including when it goes wrong. If a horse can't pass with a view to an easy workload I would definitely walk away! Owners always think vets are 'wrong' when they fail their horses- because they want to sell!
I would keep looking, make sure when you try the horse you trot it in a circle and check you can't see anything obvious - What did your horses fail on out of interest? There is no point in buying a horse that is slow because its lame..

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Mmmm....... I'm very much feeling your pain OP (as well as feeling that horrible empty feeling that hits the wallet - or perhaps I should say credit card LOL) after yet another failed vetting. When I was looking for a horse a few years ago, I spent a blimmin fortune on vettings, but everything seemed to fail! At one place, a very embarrassing situation occurred where the YO had a right go at the vet who attended (who wasn't her "usual vet"....... yep right so smelt a rat there all right!!) and blatently accused him of unprofessionalism as she swore "the horse was sound". However, upon viewing slowed-down video footage, it blatently wasn't, and even though I'd totally fallen in love with the horse and thought I'd be taking her home that day, I had to agree with the vet's opinion. It is basically about paying someone to tell you what you might not want to hear, TBH.

To go back to the statement OP where you say the horse you refer to failed the vetting, and the owner basically wants to try again "after making some changes". Ehm, what, exactly?? What "changes"?? If the horse blatently failed the vetting the first time, then what might cause it not to for a second occasion?? My suspicious mind starts bounding off in all sorts of directions on this one, it might be the seller will be chucking some bute into an older horse so it appears sound. My advice would be to walk away and don't look back! And in any case, who PAYS for this second vetting?? The owner? Or you?? Why should you have a second vetting if it failed the first? You'd be daft to do so TBH!!

Having said that, a vetting is only as good as the vet finds the horse ON THE DAY. There may be all sorts of reasons why a horse may pass the vet one day, and fail the next. Or pass with one vet one day, and fail with another vet the next. It happens.

No offence OP, but I just get the sense that you are not an experienced buyer?? May I suggest that, if this is the case, that you take a knowledgeable/experienced friend with you when you go to view a horse? I once saw a mare at a dealer's yard, and when it came to seeing her ridden, the person who was selling her was trotting her in 20m circles, OK fair enough, but she was trotting TWICE as many on what was obviously the mare's "good" side as the friend who'd come with me pointed out! Now I hadn't noticed that, I was just looking at other things, but my friend had actually worked in a dealer's yard and so therefore knew all the "ways and means"!! And this was obviously one of them! When it had been pointed out to me, I could plainly see that the mare was noticeably stiff when worked on one side. You might not notice stuff like that yourself, but a friend or instructor is another pair of eyes and can keep a look out for when you might be distracted by the emotion of the occasion and will help to keep you in check should you feel a bit impulsive!!

If you take a friend, who hopefully will - if they're experienced enough, be able to spot issues like lameness - this should then filter-out horses which might not pass a vetting, and it would then save you not only money but also heartbreak as there's nothing worse than falling in love with something and dreaming of bringing it home, only to have it fail vetting.

You will, in time, develop an "eye" for something going a bit unevenly or blatently lame; I have viewed a good few number of horses that were described to me as "sound" but trot-up showed otherwise, and I would say that there are lot of unfortunate horses out there who frankly are in considerable pain and discomfort and wouldn't therefore pass a vetting. But unless you're running a rescue or sanctuary, that doesn't mean that you should bring them home............

 

[skint1]

Both horses priced between £4k-£5k

MiJods, you are right! I'm not a greatly experienced buyer I guess as my two horses were given to me as oldies needing slower lives and I've nursed them through various things until they had to go, my current oldie, his time won't be long and that in itself is breaking my heart. My daughter comes with me but she's more looking at whether the horse is safe for me, in fact I think we have got too hung up on that and we probably could do with a third set of eyes to actually see the mechanics of the horse.

The first horse, 8yo broken in the year before, mainly hacking, bit of schooling. Very nice temperament, calm and kind. Loved the horse.
First five stage was stopped as horse was 1/10 lame on lunge, 2/10 under saddle, right hind Waited 10 days and basically re-did the later stages of vetting, still 1/10 lame so vet could not recoomend I buy. A few weeks later horse had moved to another part of country (was being sold by an agent in my area and was returned to its owner) spoke to seller, watched some vids, thought why not try again- so totally separate vet went out, vetting was stopped again, horse lame same leg back to 2/10ths. The owner and agent I am sure never believed the horse had an issue and that the vets were being too risk averse.

Second horse 14yo, done showing and hunting I think, but in most recent home just a light hack. Again, loved the horse. Vet found back and sacroiliac pain, lame on right front and hind, front foot balance quite out indicating uneven loading, large crack in right front hoof and an unsettled splint on the right fore- the crack and splint I noticed but I have a great farrier who I was sure could have sorted that (well, not the splint). The owner i think is honest but prob even less experienced than I am, wants to put back shoes on it and give it turmeric, but tbh in my sensible head, I know it's probably beyond turmeric. My own vets did that vetting and they know what I've been through, so I think they are trying to protect me, and again in my sensible head, I know I should listen to them.

I did watch both of them being schooled, the second one particularly in hindsight was reluctant to pick up a contact or canter on the right lead but I figured the horse was quite unfit and was a lot to ask on a hot day. The first horse when we hacked out, we noticed he was quite close behind, like would have needed brushing boots or something and was reluctant for me to lift right hind foot so I guess the signs were there.

I've decided to take a few weeks break from looking, well there's one more I might call about, but I will be asking for videos of it on a lunge I think before going out. I really am terrible at this horse buying lark.

 

[milliepops]

That's quite a list of findings. More than just an iffy flexion. I'd say the vettings have potentially saved you a lot more expense and heartache, you should be able to find something at that budget without a load of issues that need fixing.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Re. this above ^^^ If you're paying that sort of price OP then yes you need a vetting, and I would expect something decent for your money!

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is intended; but I think you deffo need to take someone with you when you start looking again. That person needs to be a person who is hard-headed enough to see through the excuses you have been given by sellers and dare I say it with a cynical enough mindset to see what's going on, and who's been around the horsey world a bit! Frankly I think you have had the wool pulled over your eyes with all this, plus had your money wasted by vettings that were doomed to failure! I'm outraged on your behalf TBH that someone saw fit to waste your money like this!

It is hard, very hard I know going out there and buying a horse. Your heart can all too easily rule your head, we've all been there, but you obviously have a "gut instinct" for something being wrong as you sussed that the horse not wanting to pick up a hind foot was indicative of something not right. My "project" mare was exactly like this when I got her, and when we had it investigated it turned out to be a sacro-iliac problem which responded to physio, so can I encourage you that you DO have the ability to pick-up on something not right, its just that you need the courage of your convictions to be able to walk away if things seem a bit fishy. You also noticed other things like not picking up canter lead on one side which would've indicated to me that there was something going on.

Good luck! But (please!) do consider taking someone with you; even an experienced buyer would still take someone along with them for a second pair of eyes. And I trust I'm not being patronising in counselling you to not get on anything you've not seen ridden first as I'm sure you know that; whatever the excuse given when you actually turn up and ask to see it ridden (and I've heard loads!).

 

[skint1]

Thanks!, I know exactly what you mean and we do have 2 friends who meet that criteria completely that we can rope in I am sure Buying a horse is so much more emotional than I thought it would be. I've seen 5 now, my daughter saw 2 more for me that I decided not to go any further with. Some were easy to walk away from but these two... what's that saying "when you are wearing rose tinted glasses all the red flags just looked like flags" Of course I want that unicorn of horses the steady eddy weight carrier. Doesn't have to be a world beater, can be mare or gelding, any age from 8-16 as long as it's sound. My total budget is bigger than those 2 who failed, if anyone knows of anything within 2.5hrs of North Wiltshire, inbox me! I am hoping in a month's time as winter is approaching there may be a few more about to choose from, but I can't keep looking just now, it's all-consuming and I have to think about my dear old boy and spend some time with him.

 

[Bernster]

It can def feel at times like no horses will pass a vetting. I had a run of about 50% pass rating with my vettings over the years but the rate has increased in more recent years.

I have always vetted, mostly 5 stage, and always try to take a more knowledgeable friend and be there for the vetting. I’ve always walked away from fails but some have been difficult to walk away from. I’ve been tempted to re vet but decided not to and I think that's been the right decision.

It’s difficult though as there are loads of horses in work who probably aren’t quite right at times, but do the job well enough for their owners. Have to say though, of the few I know who’ve seemed iffy, they have eventually broken down.

In your case, it could just be a run of bad ones but I reckon it would be sensible to take someone with a good eye, in case you’re not quite picking up obvious things that will fail.

 

[SusieT]

both sound like sensible fails and sensible to walk away ! Maybe take a vid and look at it at home the evening after viewing so you can objectively assess Get the seller to trot up in hand, straight and in a circle and always palpate the back, then at least you have a fighitng chance!