The positive reinforcement and clicker training thread

[stangs]

Given that there’s several of us on here who use positive reinforcement and clicker training with our horses, I thought it might be nice to have a thread where we can discuss what we’re up to and what we've learnt.

I’m not doing much with my boy at the minute, being loath to use too much food with him while he’s fat, so we’ve just been doing short target training sessions. I’m very happy with how that’s going. We recently had an understandable issue with him losing interest when working at liberty with hay out in the field. However, I restructured our warm-ups (we start off with quick dynamic stretches to get a high reinforcement rate going, then introduce some seeking behaviours to a static target, because he enjoys it, and then do a little high reinforcement rate work again) and this routine seems to doing a good job of getting him in the right headspace for “higher-energy” work (i.e. trot... He is a very energy-saving boy. He will trot if cued to, but I'm trying get him to offer it without me asking him to).

My other major point of pride is that he’s very ‘sticky’ with the target at the moment - keeping his nose exactly at the target’s level - to the point where we’ve started playing with reinbacks with variable head position (so alternating between high head position, and long and low position, within one reinback). It’s probably not a biomechanically good idea for a horse being ridden, but he's unridden; the more movement variation the better surely; and it’s been very exciting to play with, given how long it took him to start reining back, let alone reining back with his head long and low.

The next thing I want to teach him is the Spanish walk, but I’m still trying to figure out how I want to shape the behaviour. I want to keep his current target a nose target, so do I introduce another target to make solely a knee target, à la dolphin trainer, or do I follow in Ben Atkinson’s footsteps and teach him to kick a shield? If anyone’s trained a Spanish walk solely with R+, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

Otherwise I keep meaning to get him started on scentwork again but I’m currently experiencing major paralysis by over analysis in terms of what scent to use and how best to store, etc, so that probably won’t happen for a while yet.

What are other people up to? (Please join this thread. I am so desperate for nerdy clicker talk about horses.)

 

[DabDab]

Depending on whether you don't mind using pointing (with your finger) as a cue...

For the Spanish walk you can teach it/ shape it using the point to raise a foot cue for picking out feet (assuming this is already installed). Do it standing still first to get him used to the idea of raising one foot and then the other alternately - click and treat for each lift. I stand in front but at a distance just in case they flick the foot forwards. Then move onto walking (again ideal for understanding if you can be in front of them walking backwards, but depends on attitude to risk/level of horse excitability). Then pair the movement with a word or different hand cue or your body position and you can move out to the side.

 

[smolmaus]

NERDY CLICKER TALK

I played around with a knee target like 2 years ago, before I actually got someone to teach me how to teach Sadie found this VERY self-reinforcing so she started doing it as a go-to when she didn't actually understand what I was asking for and I have had to stop asking for it entirely as she can't just start throwing her front legs around willy nilly Will also gratefully read tips on how to teach this properly!

Our current project is teaching her how to jump from the ground. This is a project of... 2 sessions so will be fun to keep track of it here maybe! We know how to follow over a pole and we learned how to be directed over a pole without following last week so I have to, same as you, get a decent trot at liberty before we can string those things together. I've started adding back in higher value treats just for higher energy work. Previously these were too much and she got quite over-stimulated but that was before we started really focusing on relaxation so I'm hopeful we can get that balance right. Last time we did the trot work then took a break and she was happy enough to go back to lower value rewards for the easy stuff so so far so good!

 

[stangs]

Depending on whether you don't mind using pointing (with your finger) as a cue...

For the Spanish walk you can teach it/ shape it using the point to raise a foot cue for picking out feet (assuming this is already installed). Do it standing still first to get him used to the idea of raising one foot and then the other alternately - click and treat for each lift. I stand in front but at a distance just in case they flick the foot forwards. Then move onto walking (again ideal for understanding if you can be in front of them walking backwards, but depends on attitude to risk/level of horse excitability). Then pair the movement with a word or different hand cue or your body position and you can move out to the side.

Interesting thank you, l'll have to have a play around with that. My boy currently takes most forms of my hand being out while I'm standing in front of him as a cue to go backwards, so, if anything, this method would probably serve as a good kick up the backside for me to start refining my cues and body language.

Did you have any issues with yours stomping their foot down as they walked rather than stepping out and forward (this being the reason why Ben Atkinson recommends the shield method), or did that naturally fade out over time?

Our current project is teaching her how to jump from the ground. This is a project of... 2 sessions so will be fun to keep track of it here maybe! We know how to follow over a pole and we learned how to be directed over a pole without following last week so I have to, same as you, get a decent trot at liberty before we can string those things together. I've started adding back in higher value treats just for higher energy work. Previously these were too much and she got quite over-stimulated but that was before we started really focusing on relaxation so I'm hopeful we can get that balance right. Last time we did the trot work then took a break and she was happy enough to go back to lower value rewards for the easy stuff so so far so good!

Sounds fun! I suppose she's not the type who'll find jumping alone motivating enough to improve her trotwork at liberty (so using jumping to get a decent trot, rather than needing trotwork to start jumping)? Is the plan to get into horse agility eventually?

 

[Jinx94]

Does anyone have any specific resources that they've found to be more helpful than others?

Honestly, I know nothing about positive reinforcement trying with horses/liberty work/clicker/trick training. Currently trying a whole new approach/mindset to Tris as for the umpteenth time, he's on one of his 'I refuse to be caught' kicks..

Previously when I've tried positive reinforcement with him, I've been trying to build positive associations with things he already has negative associations with. This time (after a week or so of wallowing and letting myself feel upset and frustrated) I'm looking at it as though I'm starting from scratch and sort of doing what I'd do with a new puppy. So rather than using treats to bribe him to let me get a headcollar/rope on him, I used them to try and lay a foundation for recall. Method was to say his name, treat when he stepped towards me and make a big fuss of him. Not sure how much he 'got' it or if he just really wanted apple, but when I said goodbye to him before I left (a bright "bye Tris" and scratch on his shoulder), he actually took a step towards me whereas normally there's a slight shift in weight away from me.

Can't say I have any aspirations to be the next Ben Atkinson. I just want a more consistently positive relationship with my horse, and would really like for us to get out hacking again!

 

[stangs]

Does anyone have any specific resources that they've found to be more helpful than others?

Honestly, I know nothing about positive reinforcement trying with horses/liberty work/clicker/trick training. Currently trying a whole new approach/mindset to Tris as for the umpteenth time, he's on one of his 'I refuse to be caught' kicks..

Previously when I've tried positive reinforcement with him, I've been trying to build positive associations with things he already has negative associations with. This time (after a week or so of wallowing and letting myself feel upset and frustrated) I'm looking at it as though I'm starting from scratch and sort of doing what I'd do with a new puppy. So rather than using treats to bribe him to let me get a headcollar/rope on him, I used them to try and lay a foundation for recall. Method was to say his name, treat when he stepped towards me and make a big fuss of him. Not sure how much he 'got' it or if he just really wanted apple, but when I said goodbye to him before I left (a bright "bye Tris" and scratch on his shoulder), he actually took a step towards me whereas normally there's a slight shift in weight away from me.

Can't say I have any aspirations to be the next Ben Atkinson. I just want a more consistently positive relationship with my horse, and would really like for us to get out hacking again!

To be honest, I mostly go to dog training resources, but, for horses, Connection Training on YT has done some nice videos and she's got one on hard to catch horses which seems useful (I've only quickly flicked through it.) There's also hear.your.horse.whisper on Instagram and possibly FB; she's definitely done a lot on cooperative haltering but I can't remember if she has videos showing the step-by-step process. Alexandra Kurkland would be the person to go to if you want book resources.

Sounds like you're on the right track though, training him to associate coming to you with good stuff. The only thing you might want to look into, as you progress, is teaching him to target the headcollar (put his nose in himself - similar training process to training a dog to be muzzled). That kind of active participation can be very useful in helping animals who have a history of negative associations with a piece of equipment change their minds about it.

 

[DabDab]

Interesting thank you, l'll have to have a play around with that. My boy currently takes most forms of my hand being out while I'm standing in front of him as a cue to go backwards, so, if anything, this method would probably serve as a good kick up the backside for me to start refining my cues and body language.

Did you have any issues with yours stomping their foot down as they walked rather than stepping out and forward (this being the reason why Ben Atkinson recommends the shield method), or did that naturally fade out over time?

Not once walking really - depends how refined a look you're trying to get though tbh! When doing the standing still bit only mark and treat while their foot is in the air. They can be a bit stompty when stood still but once walking it fades, although I've never done it with a horse naturally inclined towards stamping really.

 

[Jinx94]

To be honest, I mostly go to dog training resources, but, for horses, Connection Training on YT has done some nice videos and she's got one on hard to catch horses which seems useful (I've only quickly flicked through it.) There's also hear.your.horse.whisper on Instagram and possibly FB; she's definitely done a lot on cooperative haltering but I can't remember if she has videos showing the step-by-step process. Alexandra Kurkland would be the person to go to if you want book resources.

Sounds like you're on the right track though, training him to associate coming to you with good stuff. The only thing you might want to look into, as you progress, is teaching him to target the headcollar (put his nose in himself - similar training process to training a dog to be muzzled). That kind of active participation can be very useful in helping animals who have a history of negative associations with a piece of equipment change their minds about it.

Thanks, I'll take a look at those!

 

[smolmaus]

Sounds fun! I suppose she's not the type who'll find jumping alone motivating enough to improve her trotwork at liberty (so using jumping to get a decent trot, rather than needing trotwork to start jumping)? Is the plan to get into horse agility eventually?

Agility would be fun! But not really the plan. As she has her ongoing stifle issues I would rather teach jumping this way so I can spot a no thank you when she gives one. We have done some tiny jumps under saddle previously but I am now aware that she was uncomfortable at the time and just doing it for me anyway because she is a good girl. The old "is it enthusiasm is it stress?"

I'm not really a jumper anyway so if we do it like this and she likes it we can think about jumps under saddle and if she doesn't then we won't!

Does anyone have any specific resources that they've found to be more helpful than others?

Honestly, I found a professional and the in-person teaching has made a huge difference. We are very, very lucky to have someone local. She does have some online webinars that are great primers though. In all the online research I had done previously (A LOT) I had still missed some fundamentals like the start-end signals.

Our ride last night was interesting, now I have brought out the higher value treats again motivation has... changed. In our ridden work we have been mostly focusing on self carriage in the trot so she will pop herself into a little frame, lift her back, gorgeous easy peasy. So now we are trying to extend the duration, but since she knows I have the Good Shit in my pocket she is just trying to give MORE instead of giving it for longer so I was getting a VERY collected trot with her head on the ground God loves a trier! We have a lesson tonight so will do a check in on how to re-direct without discouraging the effort.

 

[soloequestrian]

What does everyone use as the reward? I use carrot slices and sometimes apple slices (which are either slightly higher value or just different and interesting, not sure). When she was younger I tried the Likkits squares as the higher value treat and she turned into an ADHD child in front of me - never again! At the moment I have no differentiation between treats so it might be nice to have a special bonus treat for great work. She's a nice weight so I don't need to be overly careful about quantity.

 

[DabDab]

I don't use anything particularly high reward unless it is a one off thing like going in a lorry. Otherwise they just become over-excited and their brains fall out a bit (in the case of every horse I have had anyway, maybe just the horses I pick ). My default is just commercial Herby treats or hay cob-type things, mainly because they are easy to keep in my pocket and everyone likes them. Stud muffins are a good super special treat for super special occasions, but they are also full of sugar.

 

[smolmaus]

What does everyone use as the reward? I use carrot slices and sometimes apple slices (which are either slightly higher value or just different and interesting, not sure). When she was younger I tried the Likkits squares as the higher value treat and she turned into an ADHD child in front of me - never again! At the moment I have no differentiation between treats so it might be nice to have a special bonus treat for great work. She's a nice weight so I don't need to be overly careful about quantity.

I use Dengie grass nuts as a lower value reward and Baileys treats for higher value. People just use chaff too. I use a treat bag on my hip so wet things would be an issue

Sadie gets apples from my mum, who does not and will not listen to any sort of rules about timing or asking for a behaviour so apples are reserved for extra special Actually Just A Treat time with Granny She goes nuts, no further work is done that day.

 

[stangs]

What does everyone use as the reward? I use carrot slices and sometimes apple slices (which are either slightly higher value or just different and interesting, not sure). When she was younger I tried the Likkits squares as the higher value treat and she turned into an ADHD child in front of me - never again! At the moment I have no differentiation between treats so it might be nice to have a special bonus treat for great work. She's a nice weight so I don't need to be overly careful about quantity.

My boy mainly gets bits of carrot with some rosehips and Baileys’ fibre nuggets added in. When the season’s right, I pick some cow parsley before our session and add that in as well (doesn’t work if you’re not hand-feeding though). Ultimate reward for him, the one brings out all the energy and focus, is working him in an area with a lot of grass and then releasing him to graze.

I know people use chaffs and hay for continuous feeding, which is something I’ve never tried but strikes me as an interesting form of luring to experiment with some day.

Sadie gets apples from my mum, who does not and will not listen to any sort of rules about timing or asking for a behaviour so apples are reserved for extra special Actually Just A Treat time with Granny She goes nuts, no further work is done that day.

I tried to get my dad to play around with the target with my boy. That worked well. Took maybe 30s for horse to realise that, rather than actually following the target, he could just stand still and get rewarded all the same because "he was being good". Then, when I worked him later, my own father, with his 1 minute of clicker training experience, reprimanded me for not giving the (fat) horse bigger pieces of carrot. Horse is clearly much more successful at training people than vice versa.

 

[smolmaus]

My boy mainly gets bits of carrot with some rosehips and Baileys’ fibre nuggets added in. When the season’s right, I pick some cow parsley before our session and add that in as well (doesn’t work if you’re not hand-feeding though). Ultimate reward for him, the one brings out all the energy and focus, is working him in an area with a lot of grass and then releasing him to graze.

I know people use chaffs and hay for continuous feeding, which is something I’ve never tried but strikes me as an interesting form of luring to experiment with some day.


I tried to get my dad to play around with the target with my boy. That worked well. Took maybe 30s for horse to realise that, rather than actually following the target, he could just stand still and get rewarded all the same because "he was being good". Then, when I worked him later, my own father, with his 1 minute of clicker training experience, reprimanded me for not giving the (fat) horse bigger pieces of carrot. Horse is clearly much more successful at training people than vice versa.

Continuous feeding is interesting. I don't think (at the moment anyway) Sadie could focus on both at once But something to have a little look into!

They do get very good at training us back! A lot of our initial in-person lessons was me being asked "very good, and who's idea was that" and having to sheepishly reply "... Sadies..."

 

[smolmaus]

Lesson report! Well I forgot to do my check in about the over achieving with the collected trot but I can be forgiven as we had just the BEST 25 mins we have ever had! Working on jumping at liberty as I said, second session, so we tested trotting along with me: perfect, if a bit fast so thats my homework to slow down and stay connected. We tested being directed to pole: perfect. We tested being directed to a pole at trot: PERFECT so we just made it a crosspole and easy peasy lemon squeazy Sadie jumps at liberty!

We were having a chat and giving her a break and she took herself over to a like 60cm jump that someone else had up and went to step over it herself (plz dont) so we made that a crosspole and she took herself over that in trot the next time! She had outpaced me at that point so I was actually too far behind to actually direct her over it, just said she wanted to and then she did

 

[stangs]

Well done to you both - sounds like you both had fun! What you say about her outpacing you has me picturing you and Sadie like this now.

Working on jumping at liberty as I said, second session, so we tested trotting along with me: perfect, if a bit fast so thats my homework to slow down and stay connected.

One exercise that might be fun for this is setting up some blocks in a square shape (or any shape of your choosing), going fast along one side, slow along the next, fast along the one after that, and so on. Idea being that going fast rewards the going slow (or, in my boy’s case, going slow rewards going fast), and the markers make the handler a bit stricter with themselves about what pace they’re setting.

 

[smolmaus]

Well done to you both - sounds like you both had fun! What you say about her outpacing you has me picturing you and Sadie like this now.


One exercise that might be fun for this is setting up some blocks in a square shape (or any shape of your choosing), going fast along one side, slow along the next, fast along the one after that, and so on. Idea being that going fast rewards the going slow (or, in my boy’s case, going slow rewards going fast), and the markers make the handler a bit stricter with themselves about what pace they’re setting.

We had so much fun! Neither of us would ever be described as a border collie but 4 legs is just faster than 2!

This is a great idea! I have a habit of "asking" for behaviour when I know she is about to give it anyway (not always a bad thing, but a bad habit!) so the discipline will be very good.

Instructor has said to introduce a verbal half-halt in combination with this, which we will need to work out, but something like just saying "easy" or "steady" before asking for a transition. It's funny how asking for something a different way is so difficult, ridden you would just give a little half halt without thinking about it but if I have to watch my pace and my body language, look where I'm going, one eye on what Sadie is doing AND say the right word at the right time and mark and reward at the right time it really makes you appreciate how many things we ask the horses to think about concurrently

 

[smolmaus]

I did a liberty workshop today (couldn't manage to take Sadie which is sad because she would have killed it) and had such a good time! Neither of the demo horses had done a lot of liberty work before so it was great to see foundations being put in. A lot about body language which I struggle with, I gave a fantastic example of drawing in energy instead of sending away energy which perhaps explains my velcro horse However, the main exercise was sending away using a series of target cones which couldn't have been more perfect.

Took it home to Sadie and she picked it up so quickly it was almost anti-climactic

In contrast, but related, got a message at lunchtime from a friend that someone we both know had been riding her horse and it had come back to the stable with a visible blue tongue, and reports that she had "gone so well" while I have conniptions if its coercive to use a headcollar to teach trotting alongside

 

[stangs]

while I have conniptions if its coercive to use a headcollar to teach trotting alongside

The long-standing question of whether you've removing a horse's options or whether you're reducing their stress by using tools to make it clearer what you're looking for.

I do sometimes wonder if people who shape everything without ever using luring/tools are truly doing it because they think it's better for the animal's welfare, or whether it's just because they themselves enjoy the challenge of training like that. (Which would be fine if some of them didn't use it as evidence of higher moral standing.)

Off topic, but I know of a zoo where they're experimenting with giving animals access to the reinforcer at liberty (e.g., instead of having hay in the field and treating with carrots, having carrots in the field whilst also treating with carrots) following the principle that it's not true consent if the animal doesn't otherwise have access to the reward. So the question of "what is consent" "what is working at liberty" is a never-ending road...

Sounds like you and Sadie are both having fun though - surely that's all that matters?

 

[smolmaus]

The long-standing question of whether you've removing a horse's options or whether you're reducing their stress by using tools to make it clearer what you're looking for.

I do sometimes wonder if people who shape everything without ever using luring/tools are truly doing it because they think it's better for the animal's welfare, or whether it's just because they themselves enjoy the challenge of training like that. (Which would be fine if some of them didn't use it as evidence of higher moral standing.)

Off topic, but I know of a zoo where they're experimenting with giving animals access to the reinforcer at liberty (e.g., instead of having hay in the field and treating with carrots, having carrots in the field whilst also treating with carrots) following the principle that it's not true consent if the animal doesn't otherwise have access to the reward. So the question of "what is consent" "what is working at liberty" is a never-ending road...

Sounds like you and Sadie are both having fun though - surely that's all that matters?

They will just keep doing the Universal Basic Income experiment and expect different results, won't they? That isn't off topic at all though, very relevant. The day before the workshop my mum came up to visit and brought her usual bag of carrots and apples for the ponies, which is very sweet, but I made the mistake of seeing if she would do a little bit of showing off (as my sister was also there and my sister never sees her and I'm proud of my little spud ) and the presence of the apples was A Problem. She was pushy, overstimulated, easily frustrated. She did chill out again once the apples were gone and she wasn't BAD but it was very interesting. A little bit of the same behaviour showed up the next day too. I really need to put my foot down about apples being a special treat and not just conveyor belted into her as soon as Mum arrives, but I don't know how to do R+ on mums.

I think we are having fun, and honestly if an extremely experienced behaviourist (who loves her) says we are doing okay then I don't think there is anyone with more authority/ expertise I can ask. She always has the option of just walking off or planting her feet and refusing to move if she really needs to make a statement as she is still to big to bully even at only 14.1 I don't think I will ever be able to stop having a little nagging brain worm of how to do better though. Only a bad thing for my own state of mind, probably.

 

[Caol Ila]

No high value treats for us anymore. She’s had to learn how to like and love celery but is luckily responsive to my muddled combination of of +R and -R and our weird little co-dependant relationship.

 

[HaplessHorse]

I have a weird issue with +R with my mare.

She responds very well to all cues at home and in unfamiliar areas of the field. She responded well to everything when we left and while we were in the village.

But then, on the road home she just started going into “tank mode” where she puts her weight against the head collar/bridle/anything, pushes me into the hedge, and pulls. I managed to get her to stop by the gate but cars just kept turning up. She had enough and started pulling me down the road, past our gate, and wouldn’t stop. I had to ram myself against her to get her to turn around. Once she turned around, she was fine and responded well.

Now for the weird bit, she never shows any signs of stress in “tank mode”, she just goes. It seems like she just likes to do that. But when she gets home and I tie her up for a post-walk brush, she gets very tense. She is a former traveller’s driving pony so I wonder if that could be it? They weren’t as heavy handed as some travellers (she’s very inquisitive, friendly, and approachable). She was in a hacking home for 6 years after that though.

Anyone got any ideas?

ETA: I use very small low-sugar pony nuts, so I doubt the treats are too high-value.

 

[stangs]

@HaplessHorse

Just to clarify: what behaviours are you asking for, what cues are you using? Does she do the same thing if you’re heading home through the field, or if you’re on the road headed away from home? What do you mean by “no signs of stress” - what is she doing or not doing? If there’s one thing I know about cobs, it’s that they tend to internalise stress, so she might not be jumping around or swishing her tail but is her face tense?

 

[HaplessHorse]

Just to clarify: what behaviours are you asking for, what cues are you using? Does she do the same thing if you’re heading home through the field, or if you’re on the road headed away from home? What do you mean by “no signs of stress” - what is she doing or not doing? If there’s one thing I know about cobs, it’s that they tend to internalise stress, so she might not be jumping around or swishing her tail but is her face tense?

Asking for standing, using gentle pressure on lead-rope and vocal cue of “stand”. Immediate click when she responds and reward. ETA: also, moving off again by me stepping forwards and vocal cue of “walk on”. I did some fast walk/slow walk by speeding up/slowing down my walking pace and increasing/decreasing my ‘enthusiasm’ (whole body walking motion).

She was very good walking away from home, had slight eyebrow peaks initially but then settled within a minute or two. In the field she no longer does the “tank” thing at any point (took a week or two of groundwork).

Her back showed no tension and her eyes looked relaxed, and didn’t have any peaks. Her face generally didn’t appear tense (I usually have a good eye for tension thanks to my first horse). However, her neck was braced against the head collar. She was also unresponsive to external stimuli (including me).

 

[smolmaus]

Yeah the tanking off IS the stress signal. There will likely be other, more subtle ones beforehand but I agree with stangs that cobs do tend to be quiet about them sometimes. A peaked eye and a tense muzzle might be all you get. (you have since replied, so this is a pre-post edit) If you don't even have a tense muzzle or a peaked eye you may just need to look for whatever signs she does show, which might not be easy. Faster walk, slower walk, higher head position, flicking skin like a fly reaction, my mare has a dead giveaway that she will be just a little bit too enthusiastic to do what I ask, and will take a reward a little too enthusiastically. It seems like she just wants to please and she is still perfectly obedient but she is heading towards being over threshold. It is also possible that your mare has some dissociative issues, so she doesn't show stress (almost like shut-down behaviour) until she hits a certain threshold, which is then a higher level of stress than she seems to be communicating. If she is relatively new to you then this should improve with time, my mare has become a LOT more communicative with me as time has gone on.

I think you probably need to make the walks shorter. Tanking off down the road is very very unsafe so if you need to scale back your walks to like, 5 mins to ensure you definitely don't get that behaviour, do that and aim to have her well under her stress threshold the whole time. Being asked to stop and stand when they are on the way home is more stressful than you might think. If she can offer you a relaxed walk home with no pauses then I would take that, and practise the stop and stand behaviour on the way out. It might feel counter-intuitive and of course if she tanks off you do still need to be firm and stop her, but until she can walk home calmly, which you can still reward her for even if it isn't a cued behaviour, stopping and standing might be too much.

 

[HaplessHorse]

Yes, she’s getting much better at showing me signs of stress at home. I do think it is possible that she could be shut down/dissociated and her response to that is “tank”. Once in the field when doing groundwork she just started walking off, I let her have a moment and then called her back, after which she continued responding well. Obviously, that’s not possible on the road!

Today’s walk was just 10 mins up the road to a cul-de sac and back. Sadly, the field is on the right side of the road so I have to cross oncoming traffic to get there, so stopping by the gate is a must. However, I could reduce the amount of time she stands for. On it’s own standing didn’t seem to be the trigger (I made a point of ensuring she always stands at least momentarily, so it’s part of her routine), I think it was the amount of time.

I think my plan for tomorrow is to walk a for a couple of mins from home and back, rewarding a calm walk back with praise and a treat. Once 1st thing in the morning and last thing before I leave in the afternoon to avoid peak traffic (in theory).

Believe it or not, she was meant to be a calm, easy hacking cob! I’m starting to wonder if an actual happy hacker exists.

 

[smolmaus]

Yes, she’s getting much better at showing me signs of stress at home. I do think it is possible that she could be shut down/dissociated and her response to that is “tank”. Once in the field when doing groundwork she just started walking off, I let her have a moment and then called her back, after which she continued responding well. Obviously, that’s not possible on the road!

Today’s walk was just 10 mins up the road to a cul-de sac and back. Sadly, the field is on the right side of the road so I have to cross oncoming traffic to get there, so stopping by the gate is a must. However, I could reduce the amount of time she stands for. On it’s own standing didn’t seem to be the trigger (I made a point of ensuring she always stands at least momentarily, so it’s part of her routine), I think it was the amount of time.

I think my plan for tomorrow is to walk a for a couple of mins from home and back, rewarding a calm walk back with praise and a treat. Once 1st thing in the morning and last thing before I leave in the afternoon to avoid peak traffic (in theory).

Believe it or not, she was meant to be a calm, easy hacking cob! I’m starting to wonder if an actual happy hacker exists.

Ah my mistake, I thought you were stopping and standing mid-walk. Ignore half of what I said then, she definitely must stop at the gate and for traffic! I think you're bang on that it is the extended standing that's causing a bit of frustration. You can periodically reward relaxed waiting, if you're careful it doesn't turn into just shoving treats in there as bribery or distraction. I do that with a check in on my own body language and breathing to communicate that I am also relaxed which does genuinely help.

 

[stangs]

Yes, she’s getting much better at showing me signs of stress at home. I do think it is possible that she could be shut down/dissociated and her response to that is “tank”. Once in the field when doing groundwork she just started walking off, I let her have a moment and then called her back, after which she continued responding well. Obviously, that’s not possible on the road!

Today’s walk was just 10 mins up the road to a cul-de sac and back. Sadly, the field is on the right side of the road so I have to cross oncoming traffic to get there, so stopping by the gate is a must. However, I could reduce the amount of time she stands for. On it’s own standing didn’t seem to be the trigger (I made a point of ensuring she always stands at least momentarily, so it’s part of her routine), I think it was the amount of time.

I think my plan for tomorrow is to walk a for a couple of mins from home and back, rewarding a calm walk back with praise and a treat. Once 1st thing in the morning and last thing before I leave in the afternoon to avoid peak traffic (in theory).

Believe it or not, she was meant to be a calm, easy hacking cob! I’m starting to wonder if an actual happy hacker exists.

Okay so, putting the emotion aspect to one side, this boils down to her stop behaviour not being strong enough yet. If you think of the 3D model, when you halt at this gate, you’re ramping up both the duration asked and the number of distractions (wanting to go home, the cars, etc). So, when you’re in easier training areas, you need to be working on building up duration in the halt and building up distractions (e.g. practicing lots of halts as you being her in to her feed, practicing halts when there’s stuff going on outside the arena, practicing lots of halts as you’re nearing the gate etc). Right now, you’re setting her up to fail because she can’t mentally do what you’re asking. The cost of doing the behaviour (not going home) outweighs the reward.

However, it sounds like you’re going to need her stopping at this gate sooner than it will take to train the halt behaviour to be super strong with R+ alone. To be frank, I’d be tempted to rely on force a bit more in this scenario. Have her in a bridle for safety reasons, insist she stands, and the second she shows you some self-restraint (it doesn’t have to be a completely stationary halt, depending on how difficult she finds it to cope and stand - you do still want to set her up for success), use your marker word and let her walk on. You can treat if you want, but ultimately the reward of heading home is higher value. She starts getting strong on the way back, you halt (which is P- technically but the point is: you want to go home, you go home nicely or not at all) or turn her away from home again. Obviously be considerate - you’re looking for her to show some impulse control, not perfection, and if you insist too much, she will just get more and more frustrated. But the main point is you know she wants to go home, so use that to your advantage.

(The exception to the above is if she’s the sort of cob that doesn’t know to soften to pressure rather than fight it or lean against it, which wouldn’t surprise me given the driving background. In that case, you might want to practice some small flexions with her to get her softening before you try use pressure to insist.)

FWIW, my boy wasn’t dissimilar at one point. We had a dead end walking route, and he would get very stressy after we turned back: jogging, pulling, attempting to seriously tank off. But, alongside other things, a lot of training him that good halt = we keep going home means that now, even on the days where he’s especially keen to go home, he will stand quietly and let me faff and do whatever as long as I ask him to.

And I’d say he’s a pretty happy hacker most days despite that blip, so happy hacks do exist. They just need a lot of boring and repetitive training like everything else.

 

[Caol Ila]

Is power-walking towards home always a stress behaviour? I'm asking, because Hermosa doesn't, but 99% of the time when we go out with another horse, they do (unless it's Fin...he doesn't rush home, either). Drives me me mental because we have to scurry and trot a lot to keep up with horses charging along, because Hermosa just can't be a*rsed power-walking home. I think that's a good thing, but you start noticing when everyone else does it. And you feel more inclined to hack alone.

Some friends have tried putting theirs behind Hermosa, but it gets so wound up by her steady, sensible pace home that it pisses her off with angry tailgaiting and pulls its rider's arms off, so it has to go in front, and then it's cheery-bye.

 

[DabDab]

I don't think always, no. I think you have to see it in context really to know how significant the 'stress' element of the quickening behaviour is.

Most horses have a fairly strong homing instinct - there is a natural pull back to their herd and place of security and that tends to create an inclination to quicken when near home. Sometimes that inclination to quicken can be accompanied by other stress behaviours, which generally indicates there is something more going on than what I would describe as a normal, healthy homing instinct.

E.g. the discussion above - something like that can be as simple as that being asked to stand still in a position of perceived danger is stressful, and so that natural homing instinct is being suddenly amplified because the horse is suddenly desperate for their safe space.