The sacked horse hitting ex teacher is going to court

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honetpot

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Yes there is certainly a herd leader in wild horses but we are not horses. Thats the whole point! I am fully aware what the word dominance means thank you.
Horses should trust us and punching and kicking them does not obtain trust.
I think punching and kicking them doesn't obtain trust, but it doesn't mean it's the same to us as it does to them. A horse before it kicks will often threaten to kick, which could just be shifting its quarters, and putting back its ears. It's a whole body warning. A human walking quickly and having a stiff posture, or even coming up out of their sight line, to them could be seen as more aggressive, or frightening than a physical blow. They assess those movements as a potential threat, even if the human does not mean any harm.
 

Upthecreek

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I don’t think you can make comparisons between what she did in the video and what any of us would do to protect ourselves from a horse barging, kicking or biting. It just isn’t relevant to what happened.

Effective discipline is about giving an immediate correction for unwanted behaviour that the recipient understands. It’s irrelevant in this case anyway because what that teacher did was lost her temper and lashed out. It was not discipline and that horse learnt absolutely nothing.
 

paddy555

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Yes there is certainly a herd leader in wild horses but we are not horses. Thats the whole point! I am fully aware what the word dominance means thank you.
Horses should trust us and punching and kicking them does not obtain trust.
no we are not horses but we have to have some position in the herd of human and horse, some relationship with them.
It is not an equal partnership. We need to be the leader to keep ourselves and the horse safe.
 

Sandstone1

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no we are not horses but we have to have some position in the herd of human and horse, some relationship with them.
It is not an equal partnership. We need to be the leader to keep ourselves and the horse safe.
Yes and we should not abuse that relationship by punching and kicking for no apparent reason other than we have lost our temper or are having a bad day.
 

DabDab

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I don’t think you can make comparisons between what she did in the video and what any of us would do to protect ourselves from a horse barging, kicking or biting. It just isn’t relevant to what happened.

Effective discipline is about giving an immediate correction for unwanted behaviour that the recipient understands. It’s irrelevant in this case anyway because what that teacher did was lost her temper and lashed out. It was not discipline and that horse learnt absolutely nothing.
It's an interesting discussion in the context of how do we define abuse though. I know to a certain extent we know it when we see it, but that is pretty hard to define legally. We struggle enough to define abuse within our own species let alone abuse of another species.

It's so tricky and nuanced, even just considering my own horses, a raised voice would upset my big horse much more than a punch - he is a very physical horse who communicates a lot through physical contact, both with humans and horses (he has been evicted out of a lot of fields because he is just too physical with the others). It's a tricky subject
 

DabDab

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I think punching and kicking them doesn't obtain trust, but it doesn't mean it's the same to us as it does to them. A horse before it kicks will often threaten to kick, which could just be shifting its quarters, and putting back its ears. It's a whole body warning. A human walking quickly and having a stiff posture, or even coming up out of their sight line, to them could be seen as more aggressive, or frightening than a physical blow. They assess those movements as a potential threat, even if the human does not mean any harm.
And often the horse that kicks is not actually the one in charge of a situation. A horse that has to go as far as kicking to assert itself in a situation is usually bottom of the pile. Like you say, all the 'threatening' signals are often seems to be much more unsettling for horses to deal with.
 

janietee_5

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I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs. Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it. Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character. The rest is history and you regret forever. Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything. Maybe think about this before condemning her. I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary. Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..
 

honetpot

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What do we think about pulling manes? I have purchased at least three animals that have had their manes pulled to the point where any move towards their mane with a brush is met with resistance, one who was loose in a box threatened to kick me. I sold this pony as a three year old and bought it back as a sixteen year old, its gone from being what I would class as normal, to being obsessed about food, at one point I know he was grossly overweight, and being able to fiddle with his mane, I do not pull manes, to a pony that objects strongly, and will eat the most disgusting straw. It's common to twitch ponies that resist, but surely if you are causing pain that is cruel, and trimming whiskers, is also causing sensory deprivation, which is a longer lasting calculated abuse in the name of fashion and tradition.
 
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DabDab

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What do we think about pulling manes? I have purchased at least three animals that have had their manes pulled to the point where any move towards their mane with a brush is met with resistance, one who was loose in a box threatened to kick me. I sold this pony as a three year old and bought it back as a sixteen year old, its gone from being what I would class as normal, to being obsessed about food, at one point I know he was grossly overweight, and being able to fiddle with his mane, I do not pull manes, to a pony that objects strongly, and will eat the most disgusting straw. It's common to twitch ponies that resist, but surely if you are causing pain that is cruel, and trimming whiskers, is also causing sensory deprivation, which is a longer lasting abuse calculated abuse in the name of fashion and tradition.
Well I have known the odd horse who did seem to enjoy it, but in general I think it is barbaric and I certainly wouldn't ever subject one of mine to it
 

Sandstone1

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What do we think about pulling manes? I have purchased at least three animals that have had their manes pulled to the point where any move towards their mane with a brush is met with resistance, one who was loose in a box threatened to kick me. I sold this pony as a three year old and bought it back as a sixteen year old, its gone from being what I would class as normal, to being obsessed about food, at one point I know he was grossly overweight, and being able to fiddle with his mane, I do not pull manes, to a pony that objects strongly, and will eat the most disgusting straw. It's common to twitch ponies that resist, but surely if you are causing pain that is cruel, and trimming whiskers, is also causing sensory deprivation, which is a longer lasting abuse calculated abuse in the name of fashion and tradition.
I dont pull manes. Use a solo comb.
 

Upthecreek

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It's an interesting discussion in the context of how do we define abuse though. I know to a certain extent we know it when we see it, but that is pretty hard to define legally. We struggle enough to define abuse within our own species let alone abuse of another species.

It's so tricky and nuanced, even just considering my own horses, a raised voice would upset my big horse much more than a punch - he is a very physical horse who communicates a lot through physical contact, both with humans and horses (he has been evicted out of a lot of fields because he is just too physical with the others). It's a tricky subject
I get what you are saying, but I’m not sure defining abuse is that complicated really. Someone elbowing their horse in the ribs in immediate response to being barged into the stable wall is not abuse. It is a physical response to move the horse away from you to protect yourself. Laying into the horse after it has done that to ‘teach it a lesson’ because you are angry is abuse.

Grabbing a dog by the scruff to stop it being aggressive to another dog is not abuse. Kicking the crap out of it once you have removed it from the situation is abuse.

I am not against physical correction that it is appropriate to the behaviour and the situation. People who can’t control their temper in unpredictable situations probably shouldn’t have horses, dogs or kids.
 

Sandstone1

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A true horse man has a partnership with a horse based on respect not violence. If a horse were to barge me its verbally reminded or pushed over. A horse could easily kill a person if it wanted to so violence will get you no where
 

ycbm

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Well I have known the odd horse who did seem to enjoy it, but in general I think it is barbaric and I certainly wouldn't ever subject one of mine to it

Same. One mare who was in ecstasy, a couple of geldings who didn't care. All the others I cut.

It's very interesting what you find out when you rarely tie up a horse and allow it to tell you.
.
 

Tiddlypom

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I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs. Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it. Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character. The rest is history and you regret forever. Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything. Maybe think about this before condemning her. I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary. Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..
I think that you've nailed what her main line of defence is likely to be. I also suspect that she has been advised that she has more chance of swaying a jury with that spiel than a magistrates' court 🤔.
 

smolmaus

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dominance (I looked it up) means having power and influence over others. Nothing about aggressive or abusive. That is what we have over the horse.

I am struggling with your 2nd para. Every interaction has to be won to retain your top dog position. Where else is the human's position other than the leader (dominant if you want to call it that) in the herd of 2 ie horse and owner. Where do you see the position of the horse and the human in relation to each other?
I am not using the dictionary definition of "dominance" I am using it in the context of a dog training method which I think was fairly clear? That method uses "physical dominance" which is where the term comes from, often pinning the dog forcibly to the ground until they "submit".

There is also no "herd of two" I am not a horse, I am not in the herd. We are a provider of resources and an asker of silly questions like "pick up your feet" and "move there" in return. You might call that leadership but it doesn't rely on physical dominance. Some people might train in a way that makes every interaction with their horse a battle of wills, which might bear some resemblance to the dog training method but I dont think many here would want to train that way. It sounds exhausting for one, and two there can't be any trusting relationship.
 

ycbm

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I think that you've nailed what her main line of defence is likely to be. I also suspect that she has been advised that she has more chance of swaying a jury with that spiel than a magistrates' court 🤔.
I think her barrister will also call experts who will say that there is no way the pony was caused significant pain, that it was undamaged, and that there were no lasting psychological effects.

ETA and others who explain that it is a recognised technique to get a horse that has failed to load to go onto the lorry to make it more uncomfortable to refuse to do what it has been asked.

ETA and give the rules, and possibly videos, of how many times a jockey or Olympic rider is allowed to whip a horse.

I wonder who's funding her defence? Crown Court won't be cheap.
.
 

Upthecreek

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I will probably get loads of hate for this, but here goes…..imagine you are being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs. Worried and stressed about how your kid might feel about this and then the pony runs off when kid is trying to load it. Instinct kicks in thinking about what might happen if said pony gets loose on road and sadly you discipline it in a way that you wouldn’t usually, but said balaclava clad sabs have un-nerved you and made you act out of character. The rest is history and you regret forever. Pony is not harmed physically or psychologically but your world falls in and you lose everything. Maybe think about this before condemning her. I don’t know her but have seen sabs in action. Not condoning her actions but they are pretty intimidating and scary. Maybe if their faces weren’t covered they wouldn’t be so scary, but they apparently are allowed to remain anonymous…..
Was she being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs? Is that a fact? If so I wouldn’t have wasted time hitting and kicking the pony, I would have got it loaded sharpish and been off. My first instinct in that situation if I was intimidated and fearful would have been to protect my children.
 

paddy555

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I think that you've nailed what her main line of defence is likely to be. I also suspect that she has been advised that she has more chance of swaying a jury with that spiel than a magistrates' court 🤔.
I agree, I think there will be a lot about the press and not getting a fair trial, a lot about the press intrusion. There will be a lot of character witnesses, a lot supporting her behaviour towards her horses, (not this one of course) I suspect that she probably has a reasonable chance of being found not guilty.

Possibly the RSPCA expected her to roll over before the magistrate.

I was curious about who is funding this. The education trust, the press?
 

ycbm

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For information. More than one person has referred to "the Magistrate". In a Magistrate's Court, cases are heard either before a bench of three unpaid but well trained volunteers or by one paid District Judge who is legally qualified.

In view of the high profile of this case it would likely have gone before a DJ, but she has chosen to have a jury trial at Crown Court, as is her right.
.
 

janietee_5

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Was she being filmed by a load of balaclava clad sabs? Is that a fact? If so I wouldn’t have wasted time hitting and kicking the pony, I would have got it loaded sharpish and been off. My first instinct in that situation if I was intimidated and fearful would have been to protect my children.
I have never seen sabs following a hunt without their balaclavas on so would be really surprised if they had taken them off for this bit of filming. And thinking that she was trying to get the naughty pony loaded sharpish to try and get her children away from the situation. That’s probably why this happened. Pony didn‘t look scared at all and just gave in and loaded once it was reminded not to be naughty…..so in my opinion she was trying to protect her children and get them away from the scary situation asap.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Well I have known the odd horse who did seem to enjoy it, but in general I think it is barbaric and I certainly wouldn't ever subject one of mine to it

We had an Appy who thoroughly enjoyed it - and every other aspect of showing. I don't pull manes or tails though, nor do I trim whiskers. That is abuse imo. Horses use their whiskers to judge distances, amongst other things. Neither do I hog manes, anything that stops a horse keeping itself warm/protected from the elements is abuse imo.
I would also say that abuse is most usually sustained, not a one off incident.
 

DabDab

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I get what you are saying, but I’m not sure defining abuse is that complicated really. Someone elbowing their horse in the ribs in immediate response to being barged into the stable wall is not abuse. It is a physical response to move the horse away from you to protect yourself. Laying into the horse after it has done that to ‘teach it a lesson’ because you are angry is abuse.

Grabbing a dog by the scruff to stop it being aggressive to another dog is not abuse. Kicking the crap out of it once you have removed it from the situation is abuse.

I am not against physical correction that it is appropriate to the behaviour and the situation. People who can’t control their temper in unpredictable situations probably shouldn’t have horses, dogs or kids.
All those examples come into the 'we know it when we see it' category though. But what we see is influenced by our experiences, prejudices, morals, values, societal norms, the fact that we are human....
 

Pearlsasinger

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I agree, I think there will be a lot about the press and not getting a fair trial, a lot about the press intrusion. There will be a lot of character witnesses, a lot supporting her behaviour towards her horses, (not this one of course) I suspect that she probably has a reasonable chance of being found not guilty.

Possibly the RSPCA expected her to roll over before the magistrate.

I was curious about who is funding this. The education trust, the press?
This is simply my opinion, I have no inside knowledge of the case but I do know how the unions work.
I would imagine that she is a member of one of the education unions, if so her union membership will cover her legal costs. If she is found not guilty her legal representative will ask for the costs to be paid by RSPCA.
I will also add that unions will advise the course of action most likely to get the outcome that you want. They must think that she has a good (more than 50%) chance of being found NG by a jury, or they would have recommended magistrates court.
 

paddy555

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I am not using the dictionary definition of "dominance" I am using it in the context of a dog training method which I think was fairly clear? That method uses "physical dominance" which is where the term comes from, often pinning the dog forcibly to the ground until they "submit".

There is also no "herd of two" I am not a horse, I am not in the herd. We are a provider of resources and an asker of silly questions like "pick up your feet" and "move there" in return. You might call that leadership but it doesn't rely on physical dominance. Some people might train in a way that makes every interaction with their horse a battle of wills, which might bear some resemblance to the dog training method but I dont think many here would want to train that way. It sounds exhausting for one, and two there can't be any trusting relationship.
you are the leader of the herd, like the description or not. Or at least I hope you are because someone has to be and for the horse's own safety that has to be you. You are riding your horse along a busy road, something appears that terrifies the horse, your leadership will mean the difference between life and death.. Yours and the horses. You are not the "asker of silly questions" you are the boss who says "do it now" and the horse is the follower who understands he has to obey without question. As the leader you have given him the confidence.

I'm not sure people train to make interaction a battle of wills in fact I think most try to avoid that. I also can see no relevance to dogs and wolves. To me that just seems to be people wanting to come up with theories. Horses are very different animals.

You say there is no herd of two. How does your horse see that? You see your relationship as being the provider of resources how does he see it? Does he feel safer with you as his leader?

To get back to Irish Milo who is still missing an answer to her post. We are in the real world. The 16.3 three year old has had very little handling and most of it has been poor, he is in the stable and decides to exit over the top of the handler. Other than ask the silly question of "please don't do that" what are you going to do?
Another example you have just taken on a 2yo bottle fed horse. He only has 2 modes, firstly on his back feet and secondly his teeth attached to your tits whenever you get close enough. (that is a real life example of one of mine)

The trusting relationship part is fine but these are big powerful animals and, when young especially, not always very respectful of their human.
theories are fine but then there is real life. :)
 

paddy555

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This is simply my opinion, I have no inside knowledge of the case but I do know how the unions work.
I would imagine that she is a member of one of the education unions, if so her union membership will cover her legal costs. If she is found not guilty her legal representative will ask for the costs to be paid by RSPCA.
I will also add that unions will advise the course of action most likely to get the outcome that you want. They must think that she has a good (more than 50%) chance of being found NG by a jury, or they would have recommended magistrates court.
yes that is certainly one source of funding. I wouldn't be surprised if she is found NG. A bad decision by the RSPCA, too much risk.
 

Upthecreek

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All those examples come into the 'we know it when we see it' category though. But what we see is influenced by our experiences, prejudices, morals, values, societal norms, the fact that we are human....
Legally defining abuse is probably more difficult. I guess that will be the job of members of the jury who will be from a variety of backgrounds and have different life experience.
 

Sandstone1

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you are the leader of the herd, like the description or not. Or at least I hope you are because someone has to be and for the horse's own safety that has to be you. You are riding your horse along a busy road, something appears that terrifies the horse, your leadership will mean the difference between life and death.. Yours and the horses. You are not the "asker of silly questions" you are the boss who says "do it now" and the horse is the follower who understands he has to obey without question. As the leader you have given him the confidence.

I'm not sure people train to make interaction a battle of wills in fact I think most try to avoid that. I also can see no relevance to dogs and wolves. To me that just seems to be people wanting to come up with theories. Horses are very different animals.

You say there is no herd of two. How does your horse see that? You see your relationship as being the provider of resources how does he see it? Does he feel safer with you as his leader?

To get back to Irish Milo who is still missing an answer to her post. We are in the real world. The 16.3 three year old has had very little handling and most of it has been poor, he is in the stable and decides to exit over the top of the handler. Other than ask the silly question of "please don't do that" what are you going to do?
Another example you have just taken on a 2yo bottle fed horse. He only has 2 modes, firstly on his back feet and secondly his teeth attached to your tits whenever you get close enough. (that is a real life example of one of mine)

The trusting relationship part is fine but these are big powerful animals and, when young especially, not always very respectful of their human.
theories are fine but then there is real life. :)
I have actually replied to Irishmilo. I do live in real life and have horses. I choose not to abuse them. So what do you do to these horses you mention to control them?
 
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