The time has come...........

[Alec Swan]

.......for us to be giving ever clearer thought to the stallions who we will use.

I suppose that, realistically, we've already made our mind's up, but for those who are wavering, I'd offer the following thought;

When I joined this forum, it was to try and encourage others to insist upon NFNF rather than the appalling NFFR, or the rather strange Live Foal Guarantee, which in reality, is NFFR, and is responsible for many abandoned stud fees.

For those who are interested, I'd suggest that you look at those stallions which are owned by Haras De Brullemail, and offered by Elite Stallions. They are ALL offered on a September deal, whereby if your mare is empty, the bulk of your paid for stud fee, is returned. That's what I call straight forward.

I have such a liking for Jaguar Mail, and Alligator Fontaine, but at over 17h and considering the 4* 16.3 mare from which we would hope to take embryos, they are just too big. Tressor Mail it is, and we'll see!!

I'd point out that the NFNF agreement which I insist on, is all so often offered by others.

Stick to it boys and girls, and if an owner turns you away, then it's their loss.

Alec.

 

[crellow4]

I was at Hartpury and saw some of the 'Mail' boys - Jaguar Mail was amazing and I really liked Ulmar Mail. The stud terms are attractive and certainly not the norm for the UK - is this arrangement more common on the Continent or is it peculiar to this Stud?

 

[Biscuit]

Not quite as good as NFNF, but I noticed that for a few of their stallions Scotland AI services have a deal on their website where the stud fee is significantly lower if not in foal by Oct 1st. For example for Silverstone VDL, their website says Stud fee £900 £200 when not in foal by 1st October 2011.

 

[eventrider23]

LFG and NFNF have their places I think. For a one horse breeder with no intention of breeding again or no others to breed from then I think NFNF is the better choice. For more established breeders with more than one mare, etc LFG then has its place especially if it is transferable to a diff mare or another stallion at the same stud. I also know of one lovely stallion owner whose terms are that no stud fee is paid at all till live healthy foal is around. Z and a few others also do fees split into 3rds....with 1/3rd paid at order and the rest on birth of foal.

 

[magic104]

LFG and NFNF have their places I think. For a one horse breeder with no intention of breeding again or no others to breed from then I think NFNF is the better choice. For more established breeders with more than one mare, etc LFG then has its place especially if it is transferable to a diff mare or another stallion at the same stud. I also know of one lovely stallion owner whose terms are that no stud fee is paid at all till live healthy foal is around. Z and a few others also do fees split into 3rds....with 1/3rd paid at order and the rest on birth of foal.

Lke

 

[Alec Swan]

Not quite as good as NFNF, but I noticed that for a few of their stallions Scotland AI services have a deal on their website where the stud fee is significantly lower if not in foal by Oct 1st. For example for Silverstone VDL, their website says Stud fee £900 £200 when not in foal by 1st October 2011.

That is effectively NFNF, except that there is a reduced fee. Most who would want a £1000 fee, would settle for £200 in the event that a mare is empty. Does that make sense?

Breeding can be the most frightful, and costly gamble, and with stallion owners accepting a part of the risk, they are to be applauded.

LFG and NFNF have their places I think. For a one horse breeder with no intention of breeding again or no others to breed from then I think NFNF is the better choice. For more established breeders with more than one mare, etc LFG then has its place especially if it is transferable to a diff mare or another stallion at the same stud. I also know of one lovely stallion owner whose terms are that no stud fee is paid at all till live healthy foal is around. Z and a few others also do fees split into 3rds....with 1/3rd paid at order and the rest on birth of foal.

I really can't see the point in any mare owner accepting that a return to a stallion, in the event of failure, should be then laid upon another mare. I have a mare who may suit Graf, and another who may suit Jumbo, and another who may well match up with Billy Congo, do I really want the choice of another mare, for the paid for stallion? Probably not.

Alec.

 

[micramadam]

NFNF is very very common in The Netherlands. You have to provide a vet report that the mare has been scanned as empty to the stallion station (as they are known over here) by 1st October to be eligible.
You don't get the full amount back as they keep a percentage for administration costs. The amount they keep depends on the stud fee.

 

[eventrider23]

I really can't see the point in any mare owner accepting that a return to a stallion, in the event of failure, should be then laid upon another mare. I have a mare who may suit Graf, and another who may suit Jumbo, and another who may well match up with Billy Congo, do I really want the choice of another mare, for the paid for stallion? Probably not.

Alec.

I meant in this context that say a breeder with say....10 mares.....uses X stallion from SJ stud that stands 15 in total. For some reason the mare dies/is incapable of maintaining a pregnancy/whatever then the LFG terms would enable the mare owner to be able to transfer the cover to another mare that yes may not suit that stallion but suits another. For example if I were to use Z as an example (not that they do LFG)...I may have a mare that suits Air Jordan Z.....this doesn't work for whatever reason but I may also have a mare that suits Clintissimo or the likes....2 very different stallions which would suit different mares but if the LFG is transferable, instead of losing whatever amount of stud fee is forfeited in the NFNF I would instead be able to use the other stallion. Not saying this is ideal but there are circumstances where it works.

 

[ritajennings]

I have two terms,

A. mare owners pay for the collection and post the stud fee is only payable when the mare is scanned in foal

B. A straight and cheaper fee to include the first collection payable before the semen is dispatched.

Both terms are NFRF and your hated Live Foal Guarantee, I have found most mare owners find this clearer. I also do not state that the free return is used on the same mare as I also think this is fairer.

 

[maestro]

I understand what you are saying Alex and in an ideal world I would agree, the problem is in the cost of the keep of the stallion, if the job is being done properly and their fertility is then much more transparent. The same is not always with the mare and the only winner then is very often the vet and their costs.
Iwas always did NFNF when only doing natural cover and still do it for mares that come to us as at least I can trust my vet who is one of the best, too many do it on a wing and a prayer the cost of the keep then just esculates for the stallions if not on a NFFR.

 

[angrovestud]

I think there are some things that do need to be taken in to account firstly stallion owners are selling Semen whether it be fresh chilled natural or frozen makes no difference, and secondly stallion owners are not selling a guarantee of a pregnancy we have no idea really if a mare has hormone problems, what I find a bit problamatic is stallion owers taking all the risks there are mare owners who do not do mares as the stud owner would, that may well have stayed in foal if they were not stressed by competing I do think this is a grey area.
I think its fair to have a LFG or NFFR as the stallion owner will never be able to re sell the semen once its been used or ask for it back sorry if this sounds weird but there are a lot of different angles here, sales of goods springs to mind

 

[mellissa]

I was incredibly lucky I think when I put my mare in foal last year. I only paid the vets over the telephone for the package up front, then only paid the stud when she was scanned.

Bless the stud they even paid for the semen transport which was 50 euros, and I didn't pay that until after the mare was in foal. Also they are in Ireland and the mare in England. My stud here, where the made lives did everything including all paperwork, and held her for scans, insemination etc for only £30 grooms fee. I didn't even use their stallion.

I am so lucky to have a great relationship with my stud here in England. It really was stress free breeding. Totally different to when I tried to do it myself, and was ferrying the mare back and forwards to the vets for frozen AI!

 

[htobago]

LFG and NFNF have their places I think. For a one horse breeder with no intention of breeding again or no others to breed from then I think NFNF is the better choice. For more established breeders with more than one mare, etc LFG then has its place especially if it is transferable to a diff mare or another stallion at the same stud. I also know of one lovely stallion owner whose terms are that no stud fee is paid at all till live healthy foal is around. Z and a few others also do fees split into 3rds....with 1/3rd paid at order and the rest on birth of foal.

I hope I am allowed to comment. I am the stallion owner Jane is referring to here, who will accept no stud fee at all until 2 weeks after the birth of a live healthy foal.

I chose these terms because I felt that mare owners often get rather a raw deal under all the other kinds of terms available. Bad things can and do happen (even to perfectly well-cared-for mares) after October 1st, umpteen problems can arise with NFFR, and indeed with LFG...and it's the poor mare owner who always seems to end up out of pocket.

I just wanted my boy have terms that were more fair and generous to mare owners. I'm careful about who breeds to my stallion, and I trust these breeders to do their best to care properly for their pregnant mares and newborn foals.

Yes, I know that the stallion has 'done his job' once the mare is safely confirmed in foal. But that is looking at it purely from the stallion owner's perspective. For the breeder, if something goes wrong after the somewhat arbitrary October deadline, they not only have the distress of losing a foal but have lost the stud fee as well.

Perhaps I am naive and silly, but I just couldn't bring myself to accept any stud fees unless the breeder has achieved what is after all the whole purpose of the breeding: a live, healthy foal. I can't do anything about the mare owner's vet bills, or the semen-collection/shipping costs charged by the stud where he stands or by Twemlows, but the stud fee is under my control, and if the breeder doesn't get a live healthy foal, I don't want the fee.

BUT - this is a purely personal choice, and I am NOT criticising the many excellent studs and very nice stallion owners who offer the more standard/traditional terms. I am a novice newcomer to this world, and although these terms have worked just fine for me over the past 5 years (and at least one very experienced stallion owner has been inspired to adopt them) I do totally accept that they might not be right for other stallion owners.

I've been calling my boy's rather unusual terms 'Live Healthy Foal Guarantee', but given that his terms are very different from the more familiar 'Live Foal Guarantee' (which tbh doesn't really seem to mean what its name says), perhaps this name is confusing and I should give them a different name? Does anyone have any suggestions for a simple name for my boy's terms, that would be less easily confused with LFG?

 

[cloppy]

Kate, how about buy now pay later or 12 months interest free credit. lol x

 

[htobago]

Kate, how about buy now pay later or 12 months interest free credit. lol x

Helen you beast! You know why not! Because these sound like horrid vulgar discount-furniture-shop offers, when what I'm trying to do is just be fair/kind to mare owners!

As you know, I have until very recently never disclosed my boy's terms on his adverts - precisely because I didn't want breeders to be initially attracted by favourable terms rather than the stallion himself. But I think he's now established enough that I can include the terms (and anyway some online stallion websites insist on this), so it would be very helpful to have a shorthand way of describing them.

 

[dianchi]

I have to say that the terms of the stud offered was the final nail in my decision. Whilst i appreciate stallion owners are trying to make a living, if i bred again i would be more than happy to use the terms i used for my current foal.
However have heard horror stories of NFFR and LFG- from both european studs and british studs. At the end of the day Stallion owners will only get the business from the mare owners who are happy with the terms!

 

[Navalgem]

I think what you offer is excellent Kate. I offer what I'd call LFG in that I want the breeder to have a healthy live foal at 2 weeks old, but I ask that I'm paid upfront and return 100% of the stud fee if the mare is scanned not in foal or is scanned in foal but anything happens between the scan and the foal being 2 weeks old. Sadly I can't refund collection/shipping/scans or AI costs. I think different studs have different 'small print' for the same terms, whatever they are called. I think you are very trusting to only request payment when the foals are two weeks old, I've experienced people ignoring invoices/refusing to pay etc and I detest the idea of having to chase people up and/or take them to court.

I think what you offer is very generous, I'd say LFG (stud fee due when healthy foal two weeks old). It's just a line, and they can query it further when they contact you.

 

[imafluffybunny]

I am more than happy with LFG, If you pay a stud fee after 1 Oct then you could still end up with no foal if the mare loses it or has a still born.
Keeping a stallion is a costly buisness and I wouldn't expect stallion owners to lose out to infertile mares, bad AI practice or mares badly managed.

If no fee was due until the foal was safely on the ground I would support this 100%

 

[Anastasia]

Whilst I applaud those stallion owners who are able to do what Kate does with Htobago, I think that you have to have an incredible amount of trust in your mare owners then paying for the stud fees once the foal is born. What happens if they don't? Where does that leave the stallion owner?

I am not sure how many Studs could sustain getting no fees at all until a year later, afterall money also needs to come into Studs to make them viable. My major concern would be trying to chase payment of studfees. At the end of the day the mare owner could choose not to pay and still be able to register that foal, leaving the stallion owner well out of pocket. I am maybe a little more apprehensive to go down this route having been in business for sometime and seeing what can happen.

We offer live foal guarantee and discounted studfees for shipped semen, and we also offer the option to transfer the LFG to another mare should anything happen, which has been taken up by several clients before when things have happened.

If the mare comes to our studfarm for insemination then we only charge a studfee if the mare is in foal. If the mare leaves us scanned not in foal then we do not charge a studfee (only livery and vet/insemination costs). If she leaves us scanned in foal then we still offer the LFG.

As someone else has mentioned, mare owners will only use the Studs that they feel happy with their terms and conditions, which ultimately is up to each individual mare owner.

 

[chrissie1]

What Anastasia has said is the kind of service that is fair to both parties. I have used Primitive Proposal two years running and only had to pay after mare confirmed in foal on 1st October. I found this most generous of them and paid promptly. I am sure that some owners won't have, and the stud does not run itself in the meantime.

If I owned a stallion I'm afarid no mares would leave, or semen be shipped, without payment, like Anastasia although we don't run a business I've seen too much of what can go wrong with commercial transactions lef tto someone's honesty!

I lost a mare once that hadn't gone in foal, I had paid the stud fee and asked the owner if I could transfer it to another mare. I'd used her stallions a few times but even so she was a little begrudging in saying yes, she supposed it would be OK.

 

[Lark]

T&C's are are causing me endless mental torture at the moment. I absolutely love Balou and Diarado but the T&C's at Schokemohle are not forgiving.
I was also very surpised to see that the same T&C's applied to Balloon another I would certainly have on my shortlist.
Some stallions are still overpriced and some studs just are not offering value for money.

 

[cloppy]

What, Kate. You don't like my suggestions?
I think the terms people offer depend on weather they are running their stud as their main business. The relationship Kate (H Tobago) builds with her mare owners during gestation is a very caring one and I think it would take a most hardened criminal not to pay upon the arrival of their long awaited foal.
I can also see the point Anastasia makes re chasing up stud fees 12 months down the line. This could prove very time consuming and stressful if you are running a stud with more than one stallion. It only takes one non payer to ruin things for the rest of us.

 

[htobago]

I think what you offer is excellent Kate. I offer what I'd call LFG in that I want the breeder to have a healthy live foal at 2 weeks old, but I ask that I'm paid upfront and return 100% of the stud fee if the mare is scanned not in foal or is scanned in foal but anything happens between the scan and the foal being 2 weeks old. Sadly I can't refund collection/shipping/scans or AI costs. I think different studs have different 'small print' for the same terms, whatever they are called. I think you are very trusting to only request payment when the foals are two weeks old, I've experienced people ignoring invoices/refusing to pay etc and I detest the idea of having to chase people up and/or take them to court.

I think what you offer is very generous, I'd say LFG (stud fee due when healthy foal two weeks old). It's just a line, and they can query it further when they contact you.

Thank you!

Our systems don't sound all that different really - apart from your fees being paid in advance and then refunded if things go wrong, whereas mine aren't paid at all until the foal is 2 weeks.

The stud where my boy stands of course has to charge up front for semen-collection/shipping, or invoice owners for any keep fees/scans/AI costs for visiting mares. And Twemlows obviously charge shipping up front for breeders using frozen semen.

So it's just the stud fee itself - the only fee that actually comes to me - that I won't accept until the breeder has a healthy foal.

Re the 'trust' issue (which others seem to be raising as well), I am happy to say that I have never once had a breeder try to avoid payment of the fees. Nor have I even ever had to invoice anyone, or even ask them for the fee!

Quite the opposite - every year, I have breeders trying their hardest to pay me the minute their foals are born, and me telling them to please wait 2 weeks so we can be absolutely sure the foals are perfectly healthy.

Seriously, breeders are so happy to be given generous terms that they are always falling over themselves to pay the stud fee!

Also, I think that in general if you show this kind of trust in people, they respond very positively and honourably. (I may have just been lucky for the past 5 years, of course - really sorry to hear you've had difficulties.)

Incidentally, if there is ever the slightest sign of any problem with the foal (such as, say, a leg that gets a little squished in the womb and needs a bit of time to straighten out, or the foal gets a minor infection or something shortly after birth) I absolutely insist on waiting until all is perfect before accepting the stud fee. The 2-week rule is a minimum time, not a set-in-stone deadline. When I say healthy foal, I really mean it.

 

[htobago]

Whilst I applaud those stallion owners who are able to do what Kate does with Htobago, I think that you have to have an incredible amount of trust in your mare owners then paying for the stud fees once the foal is born. What happens if they don't? Where does that leave the stallion owner?

I am not sure how many Studs could sustain getting no fees at all until a year later, afterall money also needs to come into Studs to make them viable. My major concern would be trying to chase payment of studfees. At the end of the day the mare owner could choose not to pay and still be able to register that foal, leaving the stallion owner well out of pocket. I am maybe a little more apprehensive to go down this route having been in business for sometime and seeing what can happen.

We offer live foal guarantee and discounted studfees for shipped semen, and we also offer the option to transfer the LFG to another mare should anything happen, which has been taken up by several clients before when things have happened.

If the mare comes to our studfarm for insemination then we only charge a studfee if the mare is in foal. If the mare leaves us scanned not in foal then we do not charge a studfee (only livery and vet/insemination costs). If she leaves us scanned in foal then we still offer the LFG.

As someone else has mentioned, mare owners will only use the Studs that they feel happy with their terms and conditions, which ultimately is up to each individual mare owner.

Very fair points - and as I said, I do totally accept that the terms I offer might not be right for other stallion owners. As cloppy points out, I only have one stallion, not a big stud with several stallions and very high running costs.

On the question of people avoiding payment and registering foals anyway: When I started offering these terms, so many friends were shrieking at me about this and issuing dire warnings that I had to placate them by promising that I would not issue Covering Certificates until the stud fees are paid.

But actually I never kept this promise: I was confident that people would be honourable, and if anyone wanted the CC earlier for whatever reason, I always gave it to them - and I still do.

But if any stallion owner wants to adopt terms like mine and feels worried about non-payers, holding on to the Covering Certificate is the obvious answer. Nobody actually needs a CC until they have a live, healthy foal to register anyway, so this is not an inconvenience for the mare owner.

 

[htobago]

What, Kate. You don't like my suggestions?
I think the terms people offer depend on weather they are running their stud as their main business. The relationship Kate (H Tobago) builds with her mare owners during gestation is a very caring one and I think it would take a most hardened criminal not to pay upon the arrival of their long awaited foal.
I can also see the point Anastasia makes re chasing up stud fees 12 months down the line. This could prove very time consuming and stressful if you are running a stud with more than one stallion. It only takes one non payer to ruin things for the rest of us.

Thank you - and your name suggestions were very funny!

I've just replied to Anastasia, who does make some good points - and you are quite right, I make a living writing books, not running a stud, and I'm sure this makes a difference.

Although having said that, the owner/manager of Cliveden Stud, where my boy stands, was initially highly sceptical about my unorthodox terms, and convinced that I was being very naive and silly to trust people like this. But after several years with not a single non-payer, and lots of very happy breeders and repeat breedings....she has now adopted exactly the same terms for her own eventer stallion.

 

[mellissa]

HTobago it is lovely of you to have such great terms!

But we all know it is just not possible for most- for walk in stallions the stallion owner would have to stump up for collection fees.

I also understand the preparation, time and handling undertaken when breeding horses. And of course nature combined with numpty vets may result in a mare repeatedly not getting in foal- not the studs fault necessarily. Everyone has to make a living.

I do think the state of the semen and availabilty should matter- frozen from dead stallions is of a finite supply and I have no problem here with purchasing straws and no terms etc.

It is great that the uk is offering LFG etc.

 

[LadyRascasse]

Kate, although what you offer is a fabulous offer. To me I would rather pay before the semen is shipped. I can't stand the thought of a large outstanding debt (I know I would have the money aside) I have my mare going to a stallion and I have already spoken to the owner and am paying them a month before she is due to be inseminated (obviously it all depends on the mares cycle etc) but I feel happy knowing I am square with everyone after all they are providing me a service. Oh I am taking LFG terms but having met the owner and stallion I am happy they will honour there side of the deal if the worse came to the worse.

I think at the end of the day it all comes down to trust and reputation! If you trust someone and they have a good reputation then I would be happy to use them, if something didn't seem right them I would walk away no matter how perfect there stallion was.

 

[htobago]

HTobago it is lovely of you to have such great terms!

But we all know it is just not possible for most- for walk in stallions the stallion owner would have to stump up for collection fees.

I also understand the preparation, time and handling undertaken when breeding horses. And of course nature combined with numpty vets may result in a mare repeatedly not getting in foal- not the studs fault necessarily. Everyone has to make a living.

I do think the state of the semen and availabilty should matter- frozen from dead stallions is of a finite supply and I have no problem here with purchasing straws and no terms etc.

It is great that the uk is offering LFG etc.

Thanks Melissa.

Sorry - I tried to make it clear that Cliveden Stud does of course have to charge up front for semen-collection/shipping fees - and Twemlows charges up front for shipping frozen semen. Like keep fees and vet fees, these are payments for people's time, work and expert services, and of course cannot be dependent on the breeder getting a live healthy foal.

It is only the stud fee itself, the only fee that actually comes to me as the stallion owner, that I won't accept until the breeder has a healthy foal.

But as I said, I really do totally accept that my terms may not be right be other stallion owners.

 

[htobago]

Kate, although what you offer is a fabulous offer. To me I would rather pay before the semen is shipped. I can't stand the thought of a large outstanding debt (I know I would have the money aside) I have my mare going to a stallion and I have already spoken to the owner and am paying them a month before she is due to be inseminated (obviously it all depends on the mares cycle etc) but I feel happy knowing I am square with everyone after all they are providing me a service. Oh I am taking LFG terms but having met the owner and stallion I am happy they will honour there side of the deal if the worse came to the worse.

I think at the end of the day it all comes down to trust and reputation! If you trust someone and they have a good reputation then I would be happy to use them, if something didn't seem right them I would walk away no matter how perfect there stallion was.

Thank you!

I do understand - and did once have a breeder absolutely insist on paying me the stud fee as soon as her mare was tested in foal. She didn't trust herself to keep the money aside till the following year (bit of a shopaholic, she said!). I could sympathise with this, so I accepted the payment, but insisted on giving her a full refund if anything went wrong and she didn't get a live healthy foal.

The pregnancy and birth all went fine, so the refund was never needed and everyone was happy.

Oh - I did also once have someone insist on paying early for some tax reason. Again, I accepted on condition that I would give a full refund if anything went wrong. This was again not needed in the end, but the breeder was happy with this arrangement.

One has to be flexible, so I don't mind doing the full-refund arrangement instead if this is more convenient for the breeder.

 

[Cherrygarden]

I have to say too that I would have to pay up front and the circumstances would have to be extreme for me to ever take a refund from a stallion owner as so much is luck. I do stand my own stallions and offer what I suppose is a live foal guarantee in that the return is not limited by date or losing a young foal. I will never operate in a commercially viable way as I am so precious about where my stallions babies go so if anyone lost a foal unless through deliberate and determined ignorance or similar then I'd do everything I could to make sure they got the foal they wanted. My t's and c's are all at my own discretion though, I set out what I need to to protect myself, highest on that list is a non returnable booking fee but I always can choose to return it if the booking is not fulfilled because of exceptional circumstances not just "my husband found out I was thinking of putting her in foal and stopped my gin money". By and large I have found that people breeding horses in this country try to their best on both sides but it is always worth taking into account the few that don't.
Even live foal guarantees can be open to interpretation, I lost a mare shortly before foaling in a fairly catastrophic way, the foal was alive so the vet offered to try a c section to which I agreed thinking my foal would not make it. Well short story is after a very expensive stay in a neonatal unit she came home and turns 5 this year a little weird but certainly alive and healthy as she was at 2 weeks old. The thing is the other two vets from the same practice would not have offered to do the section and would have recommended putting her down. If I had chosen that route and there were days when I cried over her and wondered what I had done to her little life, where would that have put my live foal guarantee? I could not reasonably expect a stallion owner to stump up my returned stud fee because I had chosen to put her down rather than risk the possibility of a £6000 bill and maybe not even a live foal.
The possibilities are endless and all people can do is agree to what seems fair and hope I think, mostly we are all doing the best we can. The big business stallion stations are a different matter perhaps but they suit the economies and local horse worlds they exist in not necessarily the UK breeding system or equine economy.