The Unspeakable?

OldFogie

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I don't suppose many folk heard the recent phone-in on L.B.C. as it was in the wee small hours but suffice it to say there was a storm of vehement anti-hunting sentiment expressed - with mention of that well known pillar of society - Oscar Wilde and his opinion that hunting was the "Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible." The presenter seemed to enjoy the quote immensely while at the same time trying to say that he was neutral and expressing disappointment that no pro-hunt folk called. I was just too damned tired!

Now the thing that struck me is that most responders were absolute card-carrying class warriors, coming out with such phrases as "these rich folk on their big horses" and the like with hardly a mention of animal welfare. I would also point out that Oscar Wilde was famous for a lifestyle which although quite illegal at the time cannot be in the least criticsized publicly these days no matter what one thinks privately

I am minded of another quote (sorry, I've forgotten by whom) "all of the fun but none of the guilt" - said, I believe by a huntin' cavalry officer because a good point was like a charge where he didn't have to kill anyone.

I think that the anti's and the banning debate miss the fundamental that most hunting folk do so for the thrill of the chase rather than trying exterminate all those cuddly little foxes!

What say you?
 

Orangehorse

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Very few antis actually bother to find out facts, they just believe something and aren't going to change their opinion and nothing will alter this.

There are plenty of people who genuinely are interested in animal welfare and you would have to respect this. I used often to see foxes when out and about on my travels. I can't remember the last time I saw one, so something tells me that they are being hammered by other methods.

The only people who change their minds are those who actually go out and find out what really happens (or did happen!).
 

Sandstone1

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I don't suppose many folk heard the recent phone-in on L.B.C. as it was in the wee small hours but suffice it to say there was a storm of vehement anti-hunting sentiment expressed - with mention of that well known pillar of society - Oscar Wilde and his opinion that hunting was the "Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible." The presenter seemed to enjoy the quote immensely while at the same time trying to say that he was neutral and expressing disappointment that no pro-hunt folk called. I was just too damned tired!

Now the thing that struck me is that most responders were absolute card-carrying class warriors, coming out with such phrases as "these rich folk on their big horses" and the like with hardly a mention of animal welfare. I would also point out that Oscar Wilde was famous for a lifestyle which although quite illegal at the time cannot be in the least criticsized publicly these days no matter what one thinks privately

I am minded of another quote (sorry, I've forgotten by whom) "all of the fun but none of the guilt" - said, I believe by a huntin' cavalry officer because a good point was like a charge where he didn't have to kill anyone.

I think that the anti's and the banning debate miss the fundamental that most hunting folk do so for the thrill of the chase rather than trying exterminate all those cuddly little foxes!

What say you?

If that's true why try to get the ban over turned? Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing?
If you don't still enjoy hunting under the ban why do it?
It seems that hunting under the ban is still popular so why worry about getting the ban overturned?
If hunting legally under the ban is popular and enjoyable and the thrill is for the chase not killing foxes i don't see why people are so keen on getting hunting reinstated.
Sorry if these seem stupid questions but I'm genuinely interested.
 

Sandstone1

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Very few antis actually bother to find out facts, they just believe something and aren't going to change their opinion and nothing will alter this.

There are plenty of people who genuinely are interested in animal welfare and you would have to respect this. I used often to see foxes when out and about on my travels. I can't remember the last time I saw one, so something tells me that they are being hammered by other methods.

The only people who change their minds are those who actually go out and find out what really happens (or did happen!).

Couldn't that also be said of people that hunt too?
 

Equi

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As said, very few antis ever actually figure out the fact that a drag hunt is not chasing an animal to "drag" it around! Our local hunt is a chaser, so two or three horses are chased via a trail the dogs follow (which very much confused me for a while cause i thought the horses and riders were just lost hahah) they only think about the bad parts. Id love to go hunting but i don't think i have the guts or ability, but it looks jolly good fun. These peoples hobbies probably include collecting china dolls or something.
 

Equi

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If that's true why try to get the ban over turned? Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing?
If you don't still enjoy hunting under the ban why do it?
It seems that hunting under the ban is still popular so why worry about getting the ban overturned?
If hunting legally under the ban is popular and enjoyable and the thrill is for the chase not killing foxes i don't see why people are so keen on getting hunting reinstated.
Sorry if these seem stupid questions but I'm genuinely interested.

Because people assume that any hunt is banned thus the "posh people" are not being treated like the commoners are because of money. It creates more of a divide.

Not sure how to work this blasted double quote thing, but to the other post: what can be said of hunting folk? And why do they need to have their minds changed ?
 

Sandstone1

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Because people assume that any hunt is banned thus the "posh people" are not being treated like the commoners are because of money. It creates more of a divide.

Not sure how to work this blasted double quote thing, but to the other post: what can be said of hunting folk? And why do they need to have their minds changed ?

I think you are assuming that anyone who's anti hunting is ignorant. I fully understand what drag hunting is. I also understand what hunting pre ban is like as I've been myself many years ago.
I decided that it wasn't for me for many reasons none of my reasons were based on social class.
I've been born and bred in the countryside, own and ride horses but I'm still not a fan of hunting.
I know many people who hunt, some of them are very single minded and refuse to see hunting from others point of view.
Yes maybe some "Antis" are not fully versed in all the intricacies of hunting but many hunting people are just as guilty of refusing to see things from the other side of the fence.
Strange as it may seem, there are quiet a lot of horsey people who don't actually like hunting!
 
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OldFogie

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Personally, though being totally against the ban - I'm sitting firmly in a bullfinch on this one! If I'm being 100% honest about proper hunting as it used to be - then I'd have to say though I am far from squeemish I'd find it difficult to deliberately chase an animal for sport in 2018 and sometimes kill it. I rode for thirty years but never hunted only because my friends who did all had injured and even dead horses. For the same reason, the Aintree frame never indicated - owned, trained and ridden, in my name because if I'd ever had a horse capable of competing in the National - I could never have risked him despite the almost overpowering urge I had to do it myself!

Judging by the number of dead foxes, deer (and even this year a peacock!!) I see on my local roads (some way off the racing line to boot!) when most could have been avoided by no more than a slight application of brakes - I'd say that the average driver cares little about animal welfare at all and that national road deaths far exceed the entire tally that all Hunts could expect.

Of course, we had Draghounds long before the ban and we all know the reasons why they fall short of following a natural laid line for the purists but as if proof were needed that many anti's are more class warriors than true animal activists - these Hunts have been subjected to quite violent acts which in any other walk (ride) of life would result in the perpetrators being at least arrested.

I attended the Kimblewick Boxing Day on foot as ever and throughly enjoying the spectacle.
 

OldFogie

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If that's true why try to get the ban over turned?
Despite the increased popularity of hunting and better promotion by all sections of countryfolk - I think the best to be hoped for pro-hunting is the status quo because it's seen as to devisive in Westminster and the government has quite enough on its plate!
Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing?
Most purist 'untin' folk would brook no substitute for a natural laid line or the break with about two hundred years of Tradition!

If hunting legally under the ban is popular and enjoyable and the thrill is for the chase not killing foxes i don't see why people are so keen on getting hunting reinstated.
Well, it would be good to cock a snook at Tony Blair eh?
 

Orangehorse

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Couldn't that also be said of people that hunt too?

Yes of course.

Same old argument really.

The hunting act was a poorly drafted bill which has allowed ambiguities and allows antis to get so wound up. It should have meant that everyone was happy, unfortunately it has meant that everyone is unhappy.
 

Theocat

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You seem to be trying to imply the bizarre conclusion that foxhunting is somehow justified because a gay man was once rude about it. You have managed to be both homophobic and racist in your two posts to date - which isn't exactly portraying the pro-hunting lobby as open-minded, tolerant or intelligent.

Anyway: I am in the c1% of the population who is genuinely, having considered the issue and read the research, neither for nor against hunting. I think it's pretty barbaric, but certainly no more so than some other methods of control (or some modern farming). As Sandstone says, I really can't see why it's an issue; hunting within the law gives just as much of a thrill (if it's the chase you enjoy), does no one any harm, and is nobody else's business - so why not just get on wth it?

Try as you might to argue the other way, hunting is and will always be far, far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone. People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class, and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic. People who hunt have more than they ever will. Denying that just undermines the pro-hunting cause, because it is an argument that cannot be won.

It saddens me that the debate is always entirely polarised, and neither pros nor antis seem willing to engage in actual debate, as opposed to just repeating their own opinions.
 

Orangehorse

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Plenty of gay men ride, and I daresay that includes hunting.

Theocat, you are right about hunting being beyond the reach of many people, but lots of hobbies would be out of reach of nearly everyone.

Lots and lots of hobbies not including horses are very expensive, but they don't get the class hatred that hunting does. Yes, richer than average, but not necessarily super rich. If on average keeping a horse is the same as keeping a car (BHS advice), and then think about how much some people spend on holidays, then an annual subscription to a hunt would be about the same. To be rich you would have the holidays AND go hunting, but there are many people with rather average jobs who manage to keep their horses and go hunting. I guess the thing is that they are still a minority even among the horse owning public.

Years and years ago someone asked me what I thought the future of hunting was. I replied that I thought that all hunts would become drag hunts, due to increasingly busy roads and built up areas and loss of country generally and the hunt would in exchange give a fox destruction service and deadstock collection service. Not quite what happened, but there is a local hunt that states on its website quite happily that it follows a trail and there is nothing about "hunting within the law" which is ambiguous.

Sorry I'm rambling a bit.
 

Theocat

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Not rambling at all - very nice to see reasoned points and a coherent argument!

Hunting brings together a lot of things that people would generally only find stupid or distasteful individually, but which in hunting seem to reach critical mass for attracting criticism. Quite apart from the money and class, you've got high visibility (Boxing Day meets, etc), a long and high profile history as a sport of the rich upper classes (regardless of reality), indoctrination of the young, animal cruelty, "fancy dress", posh alcohol (no one carries a flask of special brew!) ...

The reality is that the ONLY argument that should matter in the entire debate is animal welfare - and neither side seems willing to admit a middle ground. Those inside hunting too often don't seem to want to address it, or just try to explain it away, but those opposed struggle with the fact that it isn't black and white; they often won't accept / agree that foxes need controlling at all, and even if they do, don't accept / agree that hunting is at least no less humane than most other methods of control. That in itself is a weak argument: trying to justify something on the basis that it is no worse than the alternatives is never going to win many people over, especially when people dress up to do it and clearly enjoy it.

I am on the fence - but in an ideal world, I'd prefer alternative methods of control, and drag hunting accepted by all sides (as far as is possible when class jealousy will still play a part!)

My turn to apologise for rambling ...!
 

GirlFriday

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I've never understood why the antis don't make more of the fact that, regardless of any wildlife, all the dogs get shot.

Now, the pro-hunting types will doubtless say that I've no right to wonder that when I have not referred to them as hounds... but really, the amount of 'knowledge' of hunting necessary to say 'actually I don't think it is cool to keep dogs in such a way that one sees no retirement for them and shoots them when they get slow' isn't that great imo. I don't need to know any more to say that I'm not OK with a sport that requires the slaughter of dogs. With or without the slaughter of foxes.

However, lots of entirely barbaric farming methods are not banned. And the Hunting Act doesn't help the dogs, so...
 

Kat

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Because "all the dogs" don't get shot.

Hounds are humanely destroyed when it is in their best interests - same as pet dogs. While fit and healthy they will have a job or be rehomed if unsuitable for hunting
 

hackneylass2

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I would not think that a hound that has hunted for many seasons would be rehomed. They just aint used to typical pet dog home life! I know a lot of folks who hunt or have hunted and none have had a 'retired' hound. They get shot, they are not housetrained, pet dog material.
 

Sandstone1

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The old argument about foxhounds being unsuitable as pets. I agree that if they have hunted and brought up in a pack it would be very difficult for them to live in a home as a normal pet.
However, there must be young hounds that are not up to the job for various reasons they never get rehomed.
I have known hunting beagles be rehomed to pet homes though. Don't know why foxhounds should be any different.
 

Theocat

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If it's a good life and a good death, I'm afraid that the humane destruction of the hounds once they can no longer work is very far down the list of animal welfare priorities we need to worry about in this country. I'd rather see their efforts turned on factory farming first.
 

Sandstone1

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If it's a good life and a good death, I'm afraid that the humane destruction of the hounds once they can no longer work is very far down the list of animal welfare priorities we need to worry about in this country. I'd rather see their efforts turned on factory farming first.

I agree, but is it a good life?
There are a huge amount of animal welfare issues in this country as you say, but who's to say which are more important?
Factory farming
Halal slaughter
Puppy farming etc etc.
 

Theocat

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It's probably a pretty good life in the grand scheme of things. Live in a pack, needs met, bags of exercise. Of course there will be variation, and some won't be having a great life - but we can guarantee that every intensively farmed chicken is having a rubbish life, so I'd start there, closely followed by puppy farming.

Lots of people like cheap chicken, though, which seems to have an extraordinary effect on their perception of welfare!
 

Alec Swan

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…….. ? Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing? …….. .

To answer your question, No, I don't.

It wasn't just Hunting that was banned, but Coursing too and what ever the class ridden may think, there may be a smattering of those with money — rarely the nouveau riche and mostly those who regardless of their wealth status were brought up to and understood the sport — Coursing, by and large, was a poor man's sport.

Do we remember when the Sunday Trading Laws changed and when the large chain stores opened on a Sunday to, as they quaintly put it, Test the Law? Well, accompanied by my Coursing dogs, I test the law on a regular basis, have done since the ban and only imprisonment will prevent me from doing so. Laws which are in place for no reason other than biased beliefs which are based on ignorance, call for civil disobedience.

The national swell of support for Hunting has nothing to do with people enjoying Hunting as it is, and everything to do with the sense of resentment still felt by many that a corrupt and fraudulent government viewed the move as a method of garnering party support and failed to realise the sense of anger felt by those who live a rural existence and who viewed their freedom of choice as a right. The lunacy of course is that the ban had a counter effect and Hunting is now more popular that ever.

Alec.
 

GirlFriday

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Well, accompanied by my Coursing dogs, I test the law on a regular basis, have done since the ban and only imprisonment will prevent me from doing so.

Surely to 'test the law' you'd have to pop in to your nearest police station and let them know what you were up to before you set off each time to engage in the illegal hunting of hares (classified as a Priority Species in the UK Biodiversity Action Plan - Wildlife Trusts)? Otherwise you're simply the same as many other petty criminals - the police have very limited resource to randomly patrol fields and look out for your activities and would (rightly) be heavily criticised for prioritising many resources in doing so.

I mean, once you're releasing captured hares and chasing them along Downing Street I'll be perfectly happy to acknowledge your civil disobedience - but when you're only announcing your intentions on a relatively niche forum you're basically just a low level criminal, no?
 

Fiagai

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You seem to be trying to imply the bizarre conclusion that foxhunting is somehow justified because a gay man was once rude about it. You have managed to be both homophobic and racist in your two posts to date - which isn't exactly portraying the pro-hunting lobby as open-minded, tolerant or intelligent.

Anyway: I am in the c1% of the population who is genuinely, having considered the issue and read the research, neither for nor against hunting. I think it's pretty barbaric, but certainly no more so than some other methods of control (or some modern farming). As Sandstone says, I really can't see why it's an issue; hunting within the law gives just as much of a thrill (if it's the chase you enjoy), does no one any harm, and is nobody else's business - so why not just get on wth it?

Try as you might to argue the other way, hunting is and will always be far, far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone. People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class, and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic. People who hunt have more than they ever will. Denying that just undermines the pro-hunting cause, because it is an argument that cannot be won.
It saddens me that the debate is always entirely polarised, and neither pros nor antis seem willing to engage in actual debate, as opposed to just repeating their own opinions.

I don't think it is possible that anyone can extrapolate from a small number of posts that an entire community is or is not "open-minded, tolerant or intelligent"

I find the argument regarding hunting and socio-economic status truly bizarre. You said -
"Hunting far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone... People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class, and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic"

That argument could be thrown at anyone who rides, keeps or competes horses. If you have a horse or horses any additional activity whether it is eventing, endurance or showing will no doubt involve the spending of considerable amounts of money. To pay for these activities may involve working
or earning additional money to help pay for expenses. That is what the majority of people do who are involved in equestrian activities in my experience. Does that make equestrians somehow elitists as you suggest? I don't believe it does to be honest.

Am I wrong in presuming you have a horse or horses? Would you qualify as a target for those who consider you to be elitist as an equestrian? Does that make you a possible target for abuse by others?
 

Sandstone1

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To answer your question, No, I don't.

It wasn't just Hunting that was banned, but Coursing too and what ever the class ridden may think, there may be a smattering of those with money — rarely the nouveau riche and mostly those who regardless of their wealth status were brought up to and understood the sport — Coursing, by and large, was a poor man's sport.

Do we remember when the Sunday Trading Laws changed and when the large chain stores opened on a Sunday to, as they quaintly put it, Test the Law? Well, accompanied by my Coursing dogs, I test the law on a regular basis, have done since the ban and only imprisonment will prevent me from doing so. Laws which are in place for no reason other than biased beliefs which are based on ignorance, call for civil disobedience.

The national swell of support for Hunting has nothing to do with people enjoying Hunting as it is, and everything to do with the sense of resentment still felt by many that a corrupt and fraudulent government viewed the move as a method of garnering party support and failed to realise the sense of anger felt by those who live a rural existence and who viewed their freedom of choice as a right. The lunacy of course is that the ban had a counter effect and Hunting is now more popular that ever.

Alec.

Thank you for your honest answer.
A lot of the argument for hunting pre ban was "we only do it for the ride across country, it's got nothing to do with killing foxes"
Well now you've got the ride across country without killing foxes but it's clearly not enough for a lot of people who want the ban lifted.
Killing foxes is obviously still part of it anyway. I think most people are fully aware that hunts do still illegally hunt foxes in purpose.

Just to make you aware in my local area police are actively looking for illegal hare coursing.
Can I ask why you feel the need to kill such a harmless animal? Is it purely for seeing your dogs work?
With foxes i can appreciate the need for control in farming areas but hares?
I can't imagine that they do much harm to farmland.
 

ycbm

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Do you hunt brown hare, Alec? The ones that people round here are trying to preserve because they are a threatened species?



I think some of the attitudes of non hunting people can be perfectly well explained by the behaviour of hunting people - drag, bloodhound and fox.

Things I have witnessed for myself:

Jamming up local roads with parked lorries causing considerable inconvenience to the locals.

Causing massive damage, ruts over a foot deep, in soft, beautifully kept, kerb-lined grass verges directly outside a church wedding venue.

Holding up motorists for very lengthy periods to cross, travel along, or jump off or onto roads.

Flooding a local pub so that locals cannot get near the bar to get a drink or order food.

Filling countryside car parks so that no-one else can park to walk their dog.

Turning bridleways and green lanes to total mush.

Hunting in areas high in leisure horse numbers without making any attempt to warn the horse keepers in the area.

Drinking spirits, usually gin or port, at the meet and at every check, from a glass at the meet or from an openly displayed flask attached to the saddle. (I did this. It was fun. It's only looking back now that I can see how it looks to some non hunting folk).

Putting a tired horse back on the lorry in a cramped stall and leaving it there while you go in the pub with your mates to have a drink and reminisce (in dirty clothes and loudly because of adrenaline) about the day.


'Cubbing' now renamed 'Autumn Hunting. Used to teach the young hounds to kill fox. Surround a covert (small piece of woodland) with people who are instructed to make a noise to drive the young fox family back into the covert. Put the young hounds into the covert and wait while they slaughter the trapped foxes.

Scarred hounds. Either through hunt or kennel injuries. I've seen some shockers.

I'm always surprised that pro hunting folk can't see what a picture all this adds up to for anyone who is inclined to act against them. No it doesn't happen every week with every hunt, but that's not the point.






Going back to the old chestnut of sabs sabbing drag meets. I drag hunted with four drag packs and two bloodhound packs on and off over decades. I have never seen a sab at a drag hunt. Sabbing of drag hunts is a rare stupidity, and most examples people give are either myth or donkeys years ago.
 
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Sandstone1

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Do you hunt brown hare, Alec? The ones that people round here are trying to preserve because they are a threatened species?



I think some of the attitudes of non hunting people can be perfectly well explained by the behaviour of hunting people - drag, bloodhound and fox.

Things I have witnessed for myself:

Jamming up local roads with parked lorries causing considerable inconvenience to the locals.

Causing massive damage, ruts over a foot deep, in soft, beautifully kept, kerb-lined grass verges directly outside a church wedding venue.

Holding up motorists for very lengthy periods to cross, travel along, or jump of or onto roads.

Flooding a local pub so that locals cannot get near the bar to get a drink or order food.

Filling countryside car parks so that no-one else can park to walk their dog.

Turning bridleways and green lanes to total mush.

Hunting in areas high in leisure horse numbers without making any attempt to warn the horse keepers in the area.

Drinking spirits, usually gin or port, at the meet and at every check, from a glass at the meet or from an openly displayed flask attached to the saddle. (I did this. It was fun. It's only looking back now that I can see how it looks to some non hunting folk).

Putting a tired horse back on the lorry in a cramped stall and leaving it there while you go in the pub with your mates to have a drink and reminisce (in dirty clothes and loudly because of adrenaline) about the day.


'Cubbing' now renamed 'Autumn Hunting. Used to teach the young hounds to kill fox. Surround a covert (small piece of woodland) with people who are instructed to make a noise to drive the young fox family back into the covert. Put the young hounds into the covert and wait while they slaughter the trapped foxes.

Scarred hounds. Either through hunt or kennel injuries. I've seen some shockers.

In always surprised that pro hunting folk can't see what a picture all this adds up to for anyone who is inclined to act against them. No it doesn't happen every week with every hunt, but that's not the point.






Going back to the old chestnut of sabs sabbing drag meets. I drag hunted with four drag packs and two bloodhound packs on and off over decades. I have never seen a sab at a drag hunt. Sabbing of drag hunts is a rare stupidity, and most examples people give are either myth or donkeys years ago.

A very good post. I have also witnessed a lot of the things you mention.
However, a lot of hunting people clearly don't see or care how much they can annoy and disrupt other people.
 

GirlFriday

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…. yes dear, and being so quite clearly troubles you far more than it does me! :D
Possibly - I suspect that a respect for the law is, within limits, a positive for society. But not absolutely, no. We're in agreement to an extent.

What bothered me was the geeky feeling that you hadn't explained correctly what you were doing and were misleading yourself and the forum slightly. And normally you're quite clear on what you do, which I like (despite not liking some of your opinions and activities).
 

Alec Swan

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Thank you for your honest answer.
A lot of the argument for hunting pre ban was "we only do it for the ride across country, it's got nothing to do with killing foxes"
Well now you've got the ride across country without killing foxes but it's clearly not enough for a lot of people who want the ban lifted.
Killing foxes is obviously still part of it anyway. I think most people are fully aware that hunts do still illegally hunt foxes in purpose.

Just to make you aware in my local area police are actively looking for illegal hare coursing.
Can I ask why you feel the need to kill such a harmless animal? Is it purely for seeing your dogs work?
With foxes i can appreciate the need for control in farming areas but hares?
I can't imagine that they do much harm to farmland.

The truth? Most of the justifications to promote the continuance of hunting and by those who ride to hounds, or course for that matter, was complete and utter tosh offered as a way of placating those who were simply unable to accept that for many it was an inbuilt and important part of their lives. It all boils down, eventually, to having a management system in place which allows the focus of our interest to prosper and survive whilst we effectively pick blackberries in the autumn. The management which was in place was such that our vulpine population prospered and were healthy …….. now on the other hand, every other 'sniper' in the County is armed with a C/F rifle, vixens with cubs to feed are bing killed, foxes are being maimed through complete incompetence and inexperience and by and large, our vulpine population receives NOTHING by way of support. The hand of everyone is now turned against the fox whilst previously, foxes were given sanctuary in established hunting country …. but no longer.

I have a flight pond where I feed wild ducks, I enjoy watching from a distance as they come in to feed in the evenings and as the sky darkens I try to identify the different species. Perhaps 3 or 4 times a year I may invite a chum and we shoot a few brace, and then leave before the end of the flight to let the stragglers come in. I don't feed the pond just to shoot ducks because it would be cheaper and vastly so, to go to the game dealer and buy my wild duck that someone else has shot and are presented on polystyrene trays. The time involved and the cost of the barley FAR outweighs the return in duck fashion, unless of course the value in what I do is that I manage and feed our local duck population, as others do and so ensure that they're fed through the winter and so that I can seek out their secret sites where they nest and then from a distance watch in the spring as they hatch and move their little squadrons to safety.

I really don't expect you to understand or in any way accept that the wildlife which surrounds me and which in my own small way I manage and influence, hopefully for the better, matters to me, a great deal.

Alec.
 

ycbm

Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
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Why do you feel that foxes need any help, Alec? They appear to me to be one of the most adaptive and successful animals in the country. There is no shortage of fox, is there? The urban ones released here were magnificent specimins.

You've not answered my question of whether you kill brown hare with your illegal coursing. If you do, how do you square that with them being a species in danger?

I see them a lot here since the ban removed the local beagle pack. I had one living in my croft until recently. The ban was the best thing that could have happened here for brown hare. They have thrived.
 
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