The Why of Horse 'Problem' Behaviour

Ample Prosecco

Ample Prosecco

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While we are creating threads on topics that can generate some controversy, here is another one in an an area I feel strongly about. Here's my starter for ten to generate some discussion and challenge some all too common issues.

My take is that not every unwanted reaction from your horse is about pain, but many might be. And importantly, all behaviour happens for a reason.

Some possible drivers:
  • Pain or physical discomfort: from illness/ injury to subtle saddle fit issues.
  • Confusion or lack of clarity: not understanding what’s being asked.
  • Fear or anxiety: instinctive survival responses.
  • Trigger stacking and overwhelm: small stresses build until the horse can’t cope.
  • Resentment or frustration: from repeated negative experiences.
  • Learned behaviours: habits that once solved a problem from the horse’s point of view, that we probably taught to them in the first place!
What I think we owe our horses is to stay curious about the why, not just react to the what. It’s easy to label something as “naughty” or “difficult” when in reality it’s communication. Ultimately, the goal should be to create behaviour change that solves the problem from the horse’s perspective as well as ours.

Another important point: vet investigations can only ever rule pain in, never definitively rule it out.

So perhaps a useful thread could be one that invites debate on:
  • When do we think behaviour is pain-related, and when might it be something else?
  • How do we balance medical investigation with training approaches?
  • What strategies have helped us get to the root of unwanted behaviours, and how have they shifted once the root cause was addressed?
From my own history every time Lottie stopped at a jump I took her back to the vet, and every time pain was underlying her refusals. She was brave as a lion so when she said no, she really was trying to let me know this was too uncomfortable for her. Amber decking me after landing from jumps also turned out to be pain. I broke my ankle when I fell off and sent her to a trainer for 6 weeks, who jumped her round novice schooling fences, competed her and then told me she was a ‘pros horse’ and I should sell her to him. I refused, took her home and she promptly decked me again bronccing on landing. I can’t ‘ride through’ and I would not want to even if I could, so instead I lunged her over a cross pole and she still broncced. So I got the vet and that is when permanent damage to her right foot from a field injury a few months previously was identified and she was retired. She was only subtly lame on a tight right turn but it was enough to make landing on an injured foot painful. The damage was seen on MRI. Hence bronccing on landing. If I'd sold her to that pro he would have just made her jump - as he was doing the whole time she was with him, despite her trying to say no.

Which brings me to a final bug bear - the claim that 'no-one can make a horse do it'. Oh yes they can! It's just nonsense. Horses protest and if you overrride that they they comply. This is just so common that people using 'they would not do it if they did not want to' argument just enrages me. It is so utterly self-serving. "I leathered my horse for refusing, but he would not jump if he did not want to.".. I mean c'mon!

If anyone wants to see some brave posts calling out poor practices I'd recemmne this FB page: https://www.facebook.com/milestoneequestrian96

She gets a lot of abuse but she's braver and more willing to speak out than the 'It's Time to Hand Wave & Virtue Signal' page ever was. (I've left that one so no idea if it's improved.)
 
What a great post. I agree with it and would add a couple of points:

The 'naughtiness' argument is easily countered by the realisation that naughtiness presupposes that horses carry in their heads an understanding of what humans think they should and shouldn't do, and why. Obviously they don't.

Vet investigations not being able to rule pain out means (just labouring your point really) that we should _never_ discount it even if it's been impossible to find. There are conditions/parts of the body that are exceptionally difficult to investigate given current tools (except PM). This makes training horses with 'issues' an ethically tricky activity.

Should be working so not going to think further on this now but will read with interest.
 
Naughty applies to a horse in the same way that weed applies to a dandilion. In the absence of a human in judgement the horse would just be exhibiting a behaviour, and the dandilion would just be a plant growing. If you rephrase the horse as 'unwanted behaviour' and the dandilion as 'plant where I don't want it' you open up a much wider world of opportunities.
You put your requirements as the cause of the situation and you can now decide how to resolve it. Why is this horse's behaviour not what I want it to be? And you can choose to become less judgemental and more enquiring in your next steps.
 
vhf said:
Naughty applies to a horse in the same way that weed applies to a dandilion. In the absence of a human in judgement the horse would just be exhibiting a behaviour, and the dandilion would just be a plant growing. If you rephrase the horse as 'unwanted behaviour' and the dandilion as 'plant where I don't want it' you open up a much wider world of opportunities.
You put your requirements as the cause of the situation and you can now decide how to resolve it. Why is this horse's behaviour not what I want it to be? And you can choose to become less judgemental and more enquiring in your next steps.
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I LOVE that analogy. Is it yours? I want to fo a FB post on that and credit whoever came up with it as it's brilliant!!
 
I believe that most poor behavior is due to pain and/or bad handling/ riding.
I recently attended an unaff dressage competition and there was 1 horse screaming so loudly that it was in pain, but being totally ignored. Instead it was made to do an extra test until it 'behaved'. Which it still didn’t. Because it physically couldn’t cope with what it was being asked to do (at prelim level, we aren’t talking not managing a piaffe!). Everyone was congratulating the rider for staying on, for managing it well, for persevering. Poor horse.
 
Ambers Echo said:
If anyone wants to see some brave posts calling out poor practices I'd recemmne this FB page: https://www.facebook.com/milestoneequestrian96

She gets a lot of abuse but she's braver and more willing to speak out than the 'It's Time to Hand Wave & Virtue Signal' page ever was. (I've left that one so no idea if it's improved.)
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Shelby isn't everyone's cup of tea but I really admire that she posts in detail about her own past mistakes and bases her current work on those experiences directly. She has made the journey, kept the receipts, no glass house stone throwing.
 
I think one thing you are forgetting is if you have a young horse and you are asking more of them, sometimes you will hit bumps. It will be physical/mental and I am sure it classes as discomfort but maybe not pain. It is a very fine art to balance a young horses body that you are building and strengthening and sometimes you get it wrong. A good rider will back off and change the question, a poor one will carry on adding pressure.

I had a scenario yesterday warming up for dr where my horse who is very sensitive slammed on brakes on canter. I had asked too much flexion to right. Fine with that level in walk, trot but needed to be built up slower in canter. Now I could force her through to shut up and get on or you take a step back and off you go again.

I am also of the opinion that horses do need to be put under pressure sometimes. A classic is I am really strict about young horses working with tiredness. They will maybe jump for 15 mins and they are tired and then I will carry on working them easily on the flat just for another 5 mins so they learn to mentally and physically strengthen.
 
For me it’s simple. I ride for fun and have zero interest in making a horse do anything they don’t want to. Whether this is due to pain, confusion or simply the horse ‘not feeling it’. The horse’s opinion matters. It is my responsibility to back off and / or rethink if they are unhappy with the work. I find the concept of ‘putting horses under pressure’ uncomfortable. Try aren’t sports equipment and the sports we engage in with them are our choice not theirs.
 
I agree with 99% of this but I reckon horses, like people, can have a personality, a sense of humour and can be naughty. OH used to take out two ponies ride and lead. They behaved impeccably when there was any traffic or other horses around. However, given a quiet long stretch, they would often decide to have some fun e.g. smaller pony would suddenly try and duck under bigger pony, bigger pony would try to move across the road and shove smaller pony into a ditch. They were great friends and played these games in the field. All it needed was OH to say "traffic" and they would start behaving again. No pain, just having fun with a friend, with the added bonus it annoyed their rider!
 
I have written and rewritten a reply and…

It’s too big a topic. To know the difference between pain and behaviour requires time and experience and sensitivity. It is not something you can just write in a few words on an internet forum. The best thing any owner can do is to be responsive to their horse’s needs, to consider them as thinking, feeling individuals and LISTEN - not just to the fact that there is an issue, but to them trying to tell you roughly where it is!

Learn body language too - what does a happy, relaxed, not in pain horse look like? How do they behave in the field? If yours looks pinched and tense all the time, including with their herd mates or in the stable, you have an issue.

We take on ponies who are healthy but otherwise on their last chances and we make a difference. It takes years sometimes to undo the psychological damage, to teach them to trust again, to give them hope. Sometimes along the way they regress or develop new behaviours, because underneath that angry pony who has learned to be aggressive to protect themselves, is a sweet sensitive soul who just wants to feel safe.

Not to say I don’t call the vet as needed. We do. Listening means they tell you when there is a problem.
 
Smogul said:
I agree with 99% of this but I reckon horses, like people, can have a personality, a sense of humour and can be naughty. OH used to take out two ponies ride and lead. They behaved impeccably when there was any traffic or other horses around. However, given a quiet long stretch, they would often decide to have some fun e.g. smaller pony would suddenly try and duck under bigger pony, bigger pony would try to move across the road and shove smaller pony into a ditch. They were great friends and played these games in the field. All it needed was OH to say "traffic" and they would start behaving again. No pain, just having fun with a friend, with the added bonus it annoyed their rider!
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My old mare, (avatar) now retired, would always check for traffic before spooking at whatever had offended her on the road. Often a leaf that was looking at her wrong, and which I'm pretty certain she knew was harmless. It may not be 'sense of humour' exactly as we call it, but they certainly have complex personalities driving their behaviours, and are capable of both playing and of understanding which boundaries are pushable and which aren't. they are not simply instinct-driven products of their physical and mental wiring. I think it's why we are so hopelessly addicted to living with them!
 
I think that pain and high spirits feels different. I have disliked being around horses who were in pain, even if they were behaving perfectly. I have refused to get on a horse with nothing but the feeling that the horse is in pain. One client's horse I was happy to ride on one rein, but not the other. Yes, it later became lame on the rein I disliked, but it was sound at the time.

Of course, both can mean that you can end up in the dirt!

I also think that insecurity is a big one. Some riders are consistent, focussed and inspire confidence. Others do the same movements, but do not inspire the confidence.

We, as an organisation, borrowed a horse from another large organisation. I knew the horse well, and had seen him on numerous occasions. Back at our yard, he became the devil to handle. I had to go and re-establish some ground rules; it only took a few days. He was with us for 16 weeks and became consistent and happy, with any rider/handler, including novices. He went home and was beautifully behaved.

A few years later, he was retired to a private home. They expected no issues as he was a stalwart of the yard. The one beginners rode. Happy and easy. They were surprised that he was bounced back as soooooo naughty. It didn't surprise me at all, he'd done the same with us. Sadly, the new owners didn't get through the insecure stage. I believe he was rehomed again and the second time it was to a more experienced home and it was successful.
 
maya2008 said:
to consider them as thinking, feeling individuals and LISTEN - not just to the fact that there is an issue, but to them trying to tell you roughly where it is!

Learn body language too - what does a happy, relaxed, not in pain horse look like? How do they behave in the field? If yours looks pinched and tense all the time, including with their herd mates or in the stable, you have an issue.
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Yes yes yes. These two things are important separately. You can listen all you like, and there is a place for intuition especially when you know a horse really well, but unless you actually look to the science of their body language you will miss things and misinterpret even with the very best will in the world. Speaking from experience, obviously 😂
 
Great post, AE.

A brilliant equine vet I use used to compete succesfuly when she was a teenager. She can no longer bear to look at the photos of her riding her own horse at that time, as she can now clearly see from the pics that the ‘naughty’ but talented horse that she rode was showing clear discomfort induced unhappiness.

At the time she was told by her trainers to ‘ride through it’ when the horse misbehaved, as so many of us were back then, and it still happens now.
 
smolmaus said:
Shelby isn't everyone's cup of tea but I really admire that she posts in detail about her own past mistakes and bases her current work on those experiences directly. She has made the journey, kept the receipts, no glass house stone throwing.
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Yes she admits she was in the whack 'em, make 'em camp and I admire that too. She also said those who have to misrepresent her arguments don't have faith in their own which I thought was interesting. Some of the reasons people give for escalating the pressure on their horses are so paper thin that they probably are secretly uncomfortable - and therefore defensive and fiercely attack straw men, rather than engage in a more measured debate.
 
I used to find it very difficult when I rode strange horses to work out if it was high spirits, high anxiety, not understanding the question or pain. With my own horses I think I am much better although they may not disagree. I used to ride a load of TBs used for polox and polo and can remember having one on canter exercise that was chucking its head all over the place. It was a very uncomfortable ride and I kept getting told it was just because they didn't like rein contact and it was usually ridden in a standing martingale. Went on to be diagnosed with severe KS and euthanised poor thing.

I currently have a saddle issue. Its taken some time to get to the surface because it is a small issue and not a glaringly obvious one but that has been presenting as lack of forwardness. In the arena it could be put down to a lot of things, but for a horse that loves his hacking and didn't want to go forward it set off alarm bells. In fact it set off bigger alarm bells than the bucking, plunging nonsense we got when riding out with my friend - and that's because he has the hots for her mare and likes to show off. He squeaks at her. She ignores him.

My littlest cob is an absolute saint with lead rein kids and I have ridden her past a tonne of heavy and badly behaved traffic without a hoof out of place. Once we are off the road and on her favourite bridlepath though she can be very cheeky. She likes nothing better than a flat out gallop and has been known to stamp her foot at a dog walker blocking her route. She is 100% capable of walking up there if she is escorting a nervous rider or baby horse but is hugely disappointed if we're out on our own and she's not allowed a blast. She has brought herself to a standstill when one baby horse started throwing shapes and rolled her eyes at him, so she knows her job at any one time. When she napped going down the road once I was off and leading her straight back because that never, ever happens.

You absolutely can 'make them work through it'. When the littlest cob had her breathing issues the vet needed 15 minutes of her being ridden at trot - it was awful but yes, I rode her through it for the purposes of the video. Even the vet said he was surprised we went as long as we did which annoyed me because if he'd said 'ride as long as you are comfortable with' I wouldn't have pushed her on and on and on.....
 
Great post AE

Ive always believed that unwanted behaviours are in the main down to pain, and still do. Yes some issues are lack of education / trust. But i firmly believe mainly down to pain / discomfort somewhere. The problem is finding it. Investigations dont always show things up. Especially if you are taking the horse to the vets, its amazing what adrenalin in an unfamiliar environment can do. Plus some horses are more stoic than others, but the sensitive ones show much more quickly.

I remember one mare. Stunning looking mare owned by a good friend. She gave her to me for £1 as the mare kept bucking her off. I 'assumed' the mare was bored as friend just wanted to do dressage. At first we had a blast, 3 weeks in the mare lost it. Ditched me, and as i was on the floor she was rearing over me and then proceeded to blind bronc around the arena. She was lame in both fronts. My friend took her back, so i never got to do full investigations. Looking back id put money on a back / SI issue.

Then if you look at my 3yo i bred. little things started to crop up which i assumed was big baby taking the mick. ( even the vet said this too ) Being a plum with the farrier, not liking you on his right side. Hating a rug on, but not minding a saddle pad. I started to manage him if you know what i mean. Lots of little daft things. Which over time i started to question. I realised something wasnt right, it seemed mad to have to molly coddle him to get him to do the basics when that wasnt his nature. He was a soppy lad really, who loved a cuddle. Im glad i listened to my gut. For those that dont follow the backing thread he had a fractured pelvis on the right and torn ligaments etc on the left. He was PTS a couple of weeks ago after he attacked his sister, and then went for me.
 
There is a book written by physiotherapist Sue Palmer, who is also a Monty Roberts person, called Brain, Pain or Training? which just about covers all this.
 
The thing with horses, I tend to think, is that they will almost always choose the path of least resistance. I do push my horses - sometimes they have to do things they don’t particularly want to do. Sometimes I ask a question and get a bit of a sulky “don’t wanna” in return, and I answer back with a firmer “no really, come on now.” 9/10, they give it a try.

Where I start paying closer attention is when a horse puts more effort into resisting than it would take to just do the thing I’m asking. That, to me, is a major red flag. For example, I have one who loves to drop onto his forehand and tank off in canter. Why? Because it’s much easier for him than sitting up and balancing. That makes sense. But if I correct him and his behaviour escalates even further, then I know there’s more going on. Likewise, if I ever found myself strapping him up in a pelham and putting on spurs just to make him sit up in canter, I’d have to question why I’d had to climb that far up the scale of force just to get compliance (for the record, I didn’t, I reschooled him slowly and tediously in a snaffle).

If I put my leg on to ask for a transition and my horse ignores me, fine, I’ll ask again. But if instead of moving forward he bucks or kicks out, well, that’s a much bigger reaction than simply what I asked for. So then the question becomes again: why was that the option he felt made more sense?

If my horse refuses a fence, we're not getting back on the lorry and going home. Maybe the stride was out, maybe he didn’t quite understand the question, maybe he just didn’t feel confident. That’s okay, we can represent and work it out. But if he refuses twenty times, or starts rearing five strides out just at the thought of being asked, that’s not about a dodgy stride or lack of confdience anymore. That’s telling me there’s a deeper issue.

I'm not sure if I've explained myself very well but I guess what I’m trying to get across is that when we use horses for sport (wherever you stand on that), it’s unrealistic to expect they’ll meet every request with unending enthusiasm. But when the resistance they offer is greater than the effort it would take to comply, that’s when we have to stop pushing and start asking why.

It's also absolutely about knowing your horse - my mare is a tricky little thing and she'll happily throw a stop in at a fence if everything isn't quite how she likes it, or the wind just happens to be in the wrong direction..... My gelding on the other hand, has never stopped at a fence in his life - if he put a stop in then we are retiring immediately and going home because something is very wrong.
 
frankieduck said:
The thing with horses, I tend to think, is that they will almost always choose the path of least resistance. I do push my horses - sometimes they have to do things they don’t particularly want to do. Sometimes I ask a question and get a bit of a sulky “don’t wanna” in return, and I answer back with a firmer “no really, come on now.” 9/10, they give it a try.

Where I start paying closer attention is when a horse puts more effort into resisting than it would take to just do the thing I’m asking. That, to me, is a major red flag. For example, I have one who loves to drop onto his forehand and tank off in canter. Why? Because it’s much easier for him than sitting up and balancing. That makes sense. But if I correct him and his behaviour escalates even further, then I know there’s more going on. Likewise, if I ever found myself strapping him up in a pelham and putting on spurs just to make him sit up in canter, I’d have to question why I’d had to climb that far up the scale of force just to get compliance (for the record, I didn’t, I reschooled him slowly and tediously in a snaffle).

If I put my leg on to ask for a transition and my horse ignores me, fine, I’ll ask again. But if instead of moving forward he bucks or kicks out, well, that’s a much bigger reaction than simply what I asked for. So then the question becomes again: why was that the option he felt made more sense?

If my horse refuses a fence, we're not getting back on the lorry and going home. Maybe the stride was out, maybe he didn’t quite understand the question, maybe he just didn’t feel confident. That’s okay, we can represent and work it out. But if he refuses twenty times, or starts rearing five strides out just at the thought of being asked, that’s not about a dodgy stride or lack of confdience anymore. That’s telling me there’s a deeper issue.

I'm not sure if I've explained myself very well but I guess what I’m trying to get across is that when we use horses for sport (wherever you stand on that), it’s unrealistic to expect they’ll meet every request with unending enthusiasm. But when the resistance they offer is greater than the effort it would take to comply, that’s when we have to stop pushing and start asking why.

It's also absolutely about knowing your horse - my mare is a tricky little thing and she'll happily throw a stop in at a fence if everything isn't quite how she likes it, or the wind just happens to be in the wrong direction..... My gelding on the other hand, has never stopped at a fence in his life - if he put a stop in then we are retiring immediately and going home because something is very wrong.
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I think this is pretty much spot on, horses can not feel super motivated to do something that is physically taxing (can't we all), but if they start to put more motivation into saying no than just getting on with something they know how to do, then it is a major red flag.
 
HufflyPuffly said:
I think this is pretty much spot on, horses can not feel super motivated to do something that is physically taxing (can't we all), but if they start to put more motivation into saying no than just getting on with something they know how to do, then it is a major red flag.
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To add even more complexity to it, I think so many horses get overlooked simply because of their personality or nature.

My gelding, for example, is just a bit “extra” by default. If something spooks him in the field, it absolutely requires a lap of fly-bucking as a reaction. He’s the same in his ridden work, he tends to give everything 110% enthusiasm, whether or not it’s actually what I asked for. When he first came to me he would bolt into and away from fences, I lost count of the people who said, “gosh, he really LOVES his job doesn’t he!” - no, he didn’t. He was a huge bundle of anxiety, and running was the only way he knew how to deal with it.

On the other end of the scale, you’ve got the so-called “lazy” horses. The ones who internalise their stress, who get labelled as stubborn or unwilling when really they’re just quietly overwhelmed, or they’ve learned that switching off is the safest option.

And then, of course, there are the mares who are labelled “nappy,” “moody,” or “difficult”. A mare who says “no” outright, who questions the work, or who argues back is often dismissed as hormonal or awkward, or "just being a mare".

The anxious horse gets praised as keen or bold, when really they’re running on nerves. The shut-down horse gets branded lazy, when really they’re quietly struggling. The outspoken mare gets written off as moody, when she's trying to tell you what is wrong.

Nothing with horses is ever linear and all horses all deal with pressure differently. Some shout, some whisper, some argue back. Too often, we slap a label on that behaviour - keen, lazy, difficult, without asking why. And when we stop listening to the “why,” that’s when we start missing what our horses are really trying to tell us.
 
Yes absolutely. I have shared this picture before. She was locked on, committed and on a good stride but slammed on the anchors ar the last second. The effort she needed to stop was so much greater than the effort needed to hop over. Clearly the hopping over was just something she felt she could not do. If you removed the jump that would have been an impressive sliding stop! I ended the lesson at that point and the instructor was unimpressed: "you can't leave it like that. She needs to jump'. Nope.
refusal.jpg
 
frankieduck said:
To add even more complexity to it, I think so many horses get overlooked simply because of their personality or nature.

My gelding, for example, is just a bit “extra” by default. If something spooks him in the field, it absolutely requires a lap of fly-bucking as a reaction. He’s the same in his ridden work, he tends to give everything 110% enthusiasm, whether or not it’s actually what I asked for. When he first came to me he would bolt into and away from fences, I lost count of the people who said, “gosh, he really LOVES his job doesn’t he!” - no, he didn’t. He was a huge bundle of anxiety, and running was the only way he knew how to deal with it.

On the other end of the scale, you’ve got the so-called “lazy” horses. The ones who internalise their stress, who get labelled as stubborn or unwilling when really they’re just quietly overwhelmed, or they’ve learned that switching off is the safest option.

And then, of course, there are the mares who are labelled “nappy,” “moody,” or “difficult”. A mare who says “no” outright, who questions the work, or who argues back is often dismissed as hormonal or awkward, or "just being a mare".

The anxious horse gets praised as keen or bold, when really they’re running on nerves. The shut-down horse gets branded lazy, when really they’re quietly struggling. The outspoken mare gets written off as moody, when she's trying to tell you what is wrong.

Nothing with horses is ever linear and all horses all deal with pressure differently. Some shout, some whisper, some argue back. Too often, we slap a label on that behaviour - keen, lazy, difficult, without asking why. And when we stop listening to the “why,” that’s when we start missing what our horses are really trying to tell us.
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Fabulous post.
 
I thought of this thread today, while chatting to a friend. She was telling me about a horse she's been offered the ride on - whose saddle slips, one shoulder is larger than the other, feels very unbalanced and wobbly beneath her. I said, 'If you could see that the saddle didn't fit, why did you ride?' She replied it wasn't that bad but the horse had bucked badly with her on. We eventually got to 'maybe it's lame' because not all horses make it to adulthood sound and healthy. She then told me a story of a horse she'd had when she was younger who had been explosive to back, they'd sent away for schooling where kissing spine had been found (by schooling yard's vet) that was so bad the horse could never be ridden.

As she said, her old horse was an explosive breed and fiery lines - they'd been unsure whether it was breed/temperament or pain before the pros got involved. When do you decide to call the vet if you're backing and it's not going well? Often people struggle just like she did.
 
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