Thermography - Anyone got answers from it?

[gingerlegs]

Just a thought as I'm thinking of having 2 of mine scanned (thermographed?!?) one as an all over as a matter of interest and the other more concentrated on her back/pelvis as I'm aware of on going issues.

I was planning on having the chiro out to both in the next few weeks as both coming back in to work from injury (one a field kick, the other a rather big splint!) but I'm thinking I may be better having them 'scanned' first to highlight problem areas and perhaps offer a different type of treatment or prevent reoccurance of little twists and pulled muscles??

Wonder if anyone has had their horse done? what it highlighted, if anything? and how it changed their treatment going forward?

I know people have found it quite sucessful for saddle fit which will be something else I would want to look at too

 

[Supanova]

Hi, I have had quite a bit of thermography done and on the whole i think it can be a useful tool. The downside is that it can throw up false positives ! I personally wouldn't have it done "as a matter of interest" if there is nothing you are particularly worred about because there is no doubt that it will show something which you will then start worrying about. However, if you feel there is something not quite right then it can be useful pin pointing the problem. My vet is very against it because she says it can only work if the horse is in a temperature controlled room and is in there for an hour before - she has used it in these circumstances but would not use it otherwise. I can see her point of view.

I have used it on a mare that started rearing for no reason - it did show a tight spot in he neck and then had chiro to resolve the problem. I also had it recently on a horse who i knew had front feet problems - it showed these problems and i subsequently had an MRI. I have also had it done on a horse with ringbone in the left hind. It showed this as a problem when the horse was lame but there was no hot spot 6 mths after the horse had been treated with a steroid and was sound. I do think therefore that it can be really useful and accurate. However, on older horses i think you will always get little hot spots showing the beginnings of arthiritis - it is very difficult to decide if these are meaningful or not!

Sorry for rambling response!

 

[khalswitz]

Hi, I have had quite a bit of thermography done and on the whole i think it can be a useful tool. The downside is that it can throw up false positives ! I personally wouldn't have it done "as a matter of interest" if there is nothing you are particularly worred about because there is no doubt that it will show something which you will then start worrying about. However, if you feel there is something not quite right then it can be useful pin pointing the problem. My vet is very against it because she says it can only work if the horse is in a temperature controlled room and is in there for an hour before - she has used it in these circumstances but would not use it otherwise. I can see her point of view.

I have used it on a mare that started rearing for no reason - it did show a tight spot in he neck and then had chiro to resolve the problem. I also had it recently on a horse who i knew had front feet problems - it showed these problems and i subsequently had an MRI. I have also had it done on a horse with ringbone in the left hind. It showed this as a problem when the horse was lame but there was no hot spot 6 mths after the horse had been treated with a steroid and was sound. I do think therefore that it can be really useful and accurate. However, on older horses i think you will always get little hot spots showing the beginnings of arthiritis - it is very difficult to decide if these are meaningful or not!

Sorry for rambling response!

Interesting your vet said that! My friends vet said the same, about temperature controlled environments (mine likes it, says it cane be a useful starting point in hard-to-diagnose or intermittent lamenesses especially, and in tendon monitoring), and we asked our thermographer about it. She laughed and said that anyone quoting temperature controlled environments is instantly recognisable to a thermographer as a 'dinosaur' - they apparently will have read an old but very popular paper published in 1996 that discussed thermography variability, back when they used to use absolute temperatures and had to take black spot temperature readings etc.

She sent us a load of papers to pass on to him discussing modern infrared cameras and thermography protocols - not only do thermographers not use absolute temperature readings and therefore don't need to take blackspot temperature readings, they work on the basis of a symmetrical thermal pattern which has been proven to be highly reproducible across healthy animals, using the animal as it's own control. The cameras are also much more highly developed and autocorrect for relative humidity and background temperature, meaning that as long as there is no direct sunlight or draught then you can essentially rule out environmental variables, so thermal imaging is ideally done in a barn or indoor school.

Apparently a lot of vets trot out the objections from the old 1996 paper, so our thermographer is well used to having to counter them. I have to admit it does seem silly that vets of all people don't think through that technology can improve over 17 years... especially when you consider that their field is constantly evolving anyway!

Personally was very impressed with it - it picked up the deep muscle tightness my lad has in his iliopsoas, right in front of his pelvis, which I have been able to feel when riding but there has never been any lameness at all(had previously had physio out but they hadn;t picked it up, once I knew where the problem was and showed them they managed to loosen him off), and also picked up his topline muscle wastage from his at-the-time undiagnosed PSSM (which helped with the diagnosis), and early stage arthritis - not surprised as he is an ex-racer.

ETA I was told to have him in the barn, clean, dry and unrugged for an hour prior to imaging. I was warned we would need to be out of draughts and direct sunlight, and that plaiting up mane and tail gave best results.

 

[popsdosh]

Interesting your vet said that! My friends vet said the same, about temperature controlled environments (mine likes it, says it cane be a useful starting point in hard-to-diagnose or intermittent lamenesses especially, and in tendon monitoring), and we asked our thermographer about it. She laughed and said that anyone quoting temperature controlled environments is instantly recognisable to a thermographer as a 'dinosaur' - they apparently will have read an old but very popular paper published in 1996 that discussed thermography variability, back when they used to use absolute temperatures and had to take black spot temperature readings etc.

She sent us a load of papers to pass on to him discussing modern infrared cameras and thermography protocols - not only do thermographers not use absolute temperature readings and therefore don't need to take blackspot temperature readings, they work on the basis of a symmetrical thermal pattern which has been proven to be highly reproducible across healthy animals, using the animal as it's own control. The cameras are also much more highly developed and autocorrect for relative humidity and background temperature, meaning that as long as there is no direct sunlight or draught then you can essentially rule out environmental variables, so thermal imaging is ideally done in a barn or indoor school.

Apparently a lot of vets trot out the objections from the old 1996 paper, so our thermographer is well used to having to counter them. I have to admit it does seem silly that vets of all people don't think through that technology can improve over 17 years... especially when you consider that their field is constantly evolving anyway!

Personally was very impressed with it - it picked up the deep muscle tightness my lad has in his iliopsoas, right in front of his pelvis, which I have been able to feel when riding but there has never been any lameness at all(had previously had physio out but they hadn;t picked it up, once I knew where the problem was and showed them they managed to loosen him off), and also picked up his topline muscle wastage from his at-the-time undiagnosed PSSM (which helped with the diagnosis), and early stage arthritis - not surprised as he is an ex-racer.

ETA I was told to have him in the barn, clean, dry and unrugged for an hour prior to imaging. I was warned we would need to be out of draughts and direct sunlight, and that plaiting up mane and tail gave best results.

Lol dont know whos being had here? If it is such a great diagnostic tool why do vets not use them routinely. The ones I know who use them are a lot more careful about a controlled environment than the unqualified cowboys are!

 

[khalswitz]

Lol dont know whos being had here? If it is such a great diagnostic tool why do vets not use them routinely. The ones I know who use them are a lot more careful about a controlled environment than the unqualified cowboys are!

My vet does. The ones in the area are coming on board - one local vet hospital is buying one off our 'cowboy' and getting their training from them so obviously think they are good? More and more vets in he UK are coming on board - and certainly in the states, where the tech has been used a lot longer, it is considered a standard piece of diagnostic equipment. My instructor is American and she said she was shocked no one really used it over here.

And like I said, a temperature controlled environment and one free from thermal variables are two different things. My 'cowboy' uses an environment free from thermal variables.

Like I said, she sent us the papers which actually back up what she said. So there is evidence. I have most of them on paper but can link to a few of them via Google Scholar (the ones I can find). And I am a science graduate myself so I know the importance of scientific back-up.

Establishing thermal 'normal' patterns - in dogs but the only recent one I can find specifically on actual thermal pattern protocol
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.68.10.1064

Thermal imaging for detection of performance enhancers, with some great references to some classic papers on use of thermography in detection of laminitis, navicular, abscesses and grading the inflammatory response.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Back pain diagnosis
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080606004989

another on back pain
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10218248

and a general pile of papers regarding thermography
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar...rmal+imaging+equine&btnG=&as_sdt=1,5&as_sdtp=

It is definitely scientifically recognised, and modern cameras rely on thermal patterns not absolutes, so therefore you dont need specific background temps unless you are using a very old school camera.

The danger with thermal imaging isn't the tech, its the interpretation. Thats why any decent thermographer sends reports to vets - ultimately its on them to make a diagnosis, and often after other diagnostic tools come into play. The benefit of thermography isn;t that it's a wonder tool, but that it is holistic and can give the vet a place to start, or in things like injury monitoring a comparative image over time.

I'll be honest sounds like my thermographer is obviously more up on it - probably why she does so well with the vets around here.

ETA It's also increasing in use in HUMAN medicine - I know several people who've had body scans for musculoskeletal pain in private hospitals, and it's beginning to be used as an alternative to mammograms as temperature differences due to vascularisation of tumours can be picked up sooner.

I know I'm a total geek, but when I find something interesting I do my research...

 

[khalswitz]

Can't find this paper online, although a very good one - might be worth a look in the journal

Tunley BV, Henson FM. Reliability and repeatability of thermographic examination and the normal thermographic image of the thoracolumbar region in the horse. Equine Vet J. 2004; 36(4):306-12

Also this one - gives a brilliant overview of equine thermography, and in a main UK veterinary publication

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023301906185

 

[noodle_]

yes,

i used it for my dog's and horse..... i will use it again in the new year on my being broken youngster to check for any pressure points...

it is very interesting i think

(old pony's)

physio needed after - also some intersting ones of my dog...! but wont post them as its in the horsey bit

 

[NaeNae87]

I would guess why more vets don't use it as a tool is because it doesn't provide a definitive diagnosis. It provides a starting point by showing the areas that have heat and inflammation.

I love it as a tool to provide extra information to my vet. Luckily my vet is open minded enough to take note of new technology and investigate is applications when helping animals.

My friend actually owns a thermal camera and scans horses for a living. As long as your horse hasn't been standing in the sun for about an hour before the scan, is not wet and the scan is conducted somewhere shady and out of the wind then it is pretty accurate.

 

[gingerlegs]

Thank you for the feedback, certainly sounds like it may be worth doing with the little mare with on going back problems as I suspect the reason she gets tight spots is due to another issue and it may help pin point an area to have worked by vets or chiro