Thin Soles

sjp1

sjp1

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 February 2010
Messages
644
Visit site
So ............... my appy has lovely horn on his feet, no cracks, lovely shaped feet, shod every six weeks.

Previously (probably September 2014) he suffered a tendon issue. I had his shoes taken off. Horn is always fabby and underneath looked improved. Frogs got fatter, I was super happy thinking he could go barefoot. But he couldn't. I had to boot him to go from field to stable. He was on soaked hay, minerals and a barefoot diet.

There were several other issues - just as he was recovering from the tendon issue (6 plus months in) he hung himself off the stable door. Had to have steroids and just wasn't right.

Got a back lady out and he was sore in his shoulders (loaded shoulders) and also obviously tight behind. She treated him for several weeks, but he was still camped under as his feet were sore - this was in the field and stable as booted to travel backwards and forwards.

Back lady suggested shoes - suggested her own farrier. So this is what we went with. He was then sound, we had a Barrie Swain saddle fitted and moved yards. Fast forward to probably three months in work and he did a suspensory ligament in his front leg. At the end of July, whilst still not being ridden he went through a post and rail fence and the post went through his axilla - this was then 6 weeks box rest, and finally 2/1/2 months ago he underwent a general anaesthetic as there was still a piece of wood left in which caused the back wound to not heal.

He is now sound, and we have been riding out for three months - just roadwork really.

His feet though are a concern to me. Very thin soles and he stumbles on pebbly bits on roads.

I would have loved to have had him barefoot but it seemed to cause so much soreness through his body as he was holding himself it wasn't really an option.

So, now underneath of feet aren't as lovely and healthy as they were, but he can be ridden. What would you do? I have just moved him onto Forage Plus Laminae Plus - thrushy smell is going now - I previously had him on Pro Hoof. I feed him two mugs of Agrobs Muesli and one mug of the grass nuts - all below 10% starch and sugar combined. He is now out on grass during the day and in at night.

Suggestions? How can I cause that sole to thicken?
 
There are people far more qualified to answer but what most people will likely say is sole stimulation so barefoot with boots and pads as they wont be stimulated in shoes. Or perhaps a metabolic problem... Or maybe grass sensitivity stopping the horse laying down tissue.

It's a battle I'm facing at the moment as well!
 
One of mine has very thin soles which has been confirmed by both my vet and farrier. The only way to keep him sound was to put front shoes on him. I have a number of other horses on the yard that are barefoot and cope more than well so it is not as if there is a particular problem with our feed/management system.

With this horse he started to do the odd lame stride when we backed him although he did trot up sound in a straight line on the tarmac. He had a full lameness workup and the only thing the vet could see was thin soles and suggested trying shoes. My farrier, who is also the remedial farrier for the vets, said that he had excellent feet and good leg/hoof conformation and as the horse had been turned away after backing we left him unshod. Six months later when we started him again he immediately started to do the odd lame stride in the school so reluctantly we did put shoes on him and it was the best decision ever.
 
Michen said:
There are people far more qualified to answer but what most people will likely say is sole stimulation so barefoot with boots and pads as they wont be stimulated in shoes. Or perhaps a metabolic problem... Or maybe grass sensitivity stopping the horse laying down tissue.
Click to expand...

^^^^ This. Loading the whole weight on the walls, as when they are shod not only fails to stimulate sole growth or encourage it to callous, but most farriers trim the sole when preparing the foot for shoes. Years ago horses used to get a break from shoes when they were turned away - hunters in summer and jumpers/show horses in winter. Back to back shoeing doesn't allow the hoof structures to carry the load as they evolved to do, on the sole, frog and bars. We've been there, for years we struggled with them, each time he was trimmed he was sensitive. Now he has soles to die for, thanks to mineral balancing and spending time barefoot in boots and pads - we aren't done yet, quite, but getting there. And yes, suffering from subclinical laminitis which exploded into the acute version last summer. Look up what Pete Ramey has to say on soles and shoes.
 
I will - he is now lame AGAIN!! We have had two tendon injuries, a hanging himself off stable door injury and a going through a post and rail fence which went through his upper axilla with a major operation. Three months back into work and lame again - shod. This is in the last two years.

So, am going to have a radical re-think. Back lady out on Saturday, farrier next week. If both of those draw a blank, vet out I reckon to hopefully do MRI scan on feet and also PPID/IR testing. If there are changes in the feet, then I think barefoot, although not looking forward to that even though mineral balancing as he had to be booted to field and back with no shoes.

Thanks all for your answers
 
Horses eh. I feel your pain! Fingers crossed you get some answers though if I were you I wouldn't bother with MRI diagnostics, would set aside three months to barefoot rehab and take it from there assuming his lameness is defo in the foot. But I learnt that post £8,000 of vet fees!

sjp1 said:
I will - he is now lame AGAIN!! We have had two tendon injuries, a hanging himself off stable door injury and a going through a post and rail fence which went through his upper axilla with a major operation. Three months back into work and lame again - shod. This is in the last two years.

So, am going to have a radical re-think. Back lady out on Saturday, farrier next week. If both of those draw a blank, vet out I reckon to hopefully do MRI scan on feet and also PPID/IR testing. If there are changes in the feet, then I think barefoot, although not looking forward to that even though mineral balancing as he had to be booted to field and back with no shoes.

Thanks all for your answers
Click to expand...
 
I have a horse who was diagnosed with Cushings back end of last year. I'd struggled against grass sensitivity issues for 2 years before that and to be honest even with him on medication I'm still struggling now with his soles. They were getting better (we had actual concavity and everything!) but a combination of him refusing hard feed with minerals etc in it for a month solid, his ACTH levels randomly going thru the roof, yard deciding to fertilise the fields followed by ideal conditions for grass growth have culminated in a laminitis scare with soles that flex with thumb pressure (worse the closer to the toe you get).

He was a bit better when I managed to have him on a feed plan balanced to his hay and grazing. Sadly YM then changed hay supplier and he's currently not on grass so I've gone back to a bog standard mineral supplement as don't want to cause more harm by over-doing it with copper and zinc (which my feed plan was having me give in rather huge quantities). Apparently think soles can be common in horses eating grass and forage where copper and zinc are deficient relative to the other minerals (wouldn't recommend feeding above what's in off the shelf balancers without analysis though as it is possible to cause toxicities and to unbalance other things)

You're probably going to be highly unlikely to get his soles to improve whilst shod sadly as there's just no ground contact / stimulation save for on a surface eg in an arena. Some farriers would I guess suggest using pads for this but then you have the issue of what's underneath being an ideal thrush breeding ground and this still won't support the rest of the foot normally / promote better landing I'd agree with discussing testing for PPID / IR just in case. Other than that you'll have to same fun I'm having right now trying to figure out what does and doesn't work managementwise.

As I said I'm 2 years down the line and still having issues trying to find a solution. Rapidly coming to the conclusion that my horse ideally needs to live his life on a track system and sadly there isn't anywhere offering this that is within travelling distance for me (nearest is about 40 miles away) so I'm trying to make use of some bits of yard I'm currently on where the least stuff grows and looking into what other options are out there for grass free turnout that might be doable. I'm never going to be able to keep mine like a "normal" horse though. (And this would be true even if shod as he was still unsound on stones to the same degree in shoes tbh) He's always going to have to come completely off the grass for the months it is growing the most I think and I'll always have to be careful with his grass intake and with the feed he gets and the hay and haylage he has access to. (In an ideal world he could do with all his forage being late cut and being grown organically and for his grazing to be unfertilised meadow grasses at the top of a moor somewhere... not really achievable)

My horse is an extreme case even amongst rehab horses, guess I'm just warning you of the lengths you may end up having to go to if yours is as over-sensitive as mine. On a more helpful note have you perhaps thought about send him to rehab livery somewhere to kick start things should this current issue be foot-related? Nic at Rockley Farm takes cases on vet referral (but I think they DO need to have had diagnostic imaging of some kind done) but I think there are also other places out there that maybe aren't at the same level of experience but may still have better surfaces for him to be comfortable on whilst transitioning / that will assist in stimulation.
 
Boulty said:
I have a horse who was diagnosed with Cushings back end of last year. I'd struggled against grass sensitivity issues for 2 years before that and to be honest even with him on medication I'm still struggling now with his soles. They were getting better (we had actual concavity and everything!) but a combination of him refusing hard feed with minerals etc in it for a month solid, his ACTH levels randomly going thru the roof, yard deciding to fertilise the fields followed by ideal conditions for grass growth have culminated in a laminitis scare with soles that flex with thumb pressure (worse the closer to the toe you get).

He was a bit better when I managed to have him on a feed plan balanced to his hay and grazing. Sadly YM then changed hay supplier and he's currently not on grass so I've gone back to a bog standard mineral supplement as don't want to cause more harm by over-doing it with copper and zinc (which my feed plan was having me give in rather huge quantities). Apparently think soles can be common in horses eating grass and forage where copper and zinc are deficient relative to the other minerals (wouldn't recommend feeding above what's in off the shelf balancers without analysis though as it is possible to cause toxicities and to unbalance other things)

You're probably going to be highly unlikely to get his soles to improve whilst shod sadly as there's just no ground contact / stimulation save for on a surface eg in an arena. Some farriers would I guess suggest using pads for this but then you have the issue of what's underneath being an ideal thrush breeding ground and this still won't support the rest of the foot normally / promote better landing I'd agree with discussing testing for PPID / IR just in case. Other than that you'll have to same fun I'm having right now trying to figure out what does and doesn't work managementwise.

As I said I'm 2 years down the line and still having issues trying to find a solution. Rapidly coming to the conclusion that my horse ideally needs to live his life on a track system and sadly there isn't anywhere offering this that is within travelling distance for me (nearest is about 40 miles away) so I'm trying to make use of some bits of yard I'm currently on where the least stuff grows and looking into what other options are out there for grass free turnout that might be doable. I'm never going to be able to keep mine like a "normal" horse though. (And this would be true even if shod as he was still unsound on stones to the same degree in shoes tbh) He's always going to have to come completely off the grass for the months it is growing the most I think and I'll always have to be careful with his grass intake and with the feed he gets and the hay and haylage he has access to. (In an ideal world he could do with all his forage being late cut and being grown organically and for his grazing to be unfertilised meadow grasses at the top of a moor somewhere... not really achievable)

My horse is an extreme case even amongst rehab horses, guess I'm just warning you of the lengths you may end up having to go to if yours is as over-sensitive as mine. On a more helpful note have you perhaps thought about send him to rehab livery somewhere to kick start things should this current issue be foot-related? Nic at Rockley Farm takes cases on vet referral (but I think they DO need to have had diagnostic imaging of some kind done) but I think there are also other places out there that maybe aren't at the same level of experience but may still have better surfaces for him to be comfortable on whilst transitioning / that will assist in stimulation.
Click to expand...

Just found my old thread nearly a year on when yet again googling!!

So he was lame when I posted this. I had vet out and suggested it was in the foot. She was not convinced but agreed to x-ray and I was right - she diagnosed navicular, a week later we had nerve blocks and she recommended bar shoes and pads. I didn't want to go down this route so I had his shoes removed.

I would have sent him to Nic at Rockley who isn't that far from us, and indeed she did come and look at him for me - of course I paid. However, insurance wouldn't pay for rehab, so I have been re-habbing at home - Boulty, mine too is an extreme case I think! He was crippled without his shoes, I booted and padded him for corral turnout and even leading in and out of field although he was OK in the field. He until a couple of months ago refused to leave his stable without his boots on, but he is very opinionated and quite bright. He is now fine about coming out of the stable with no boots!!

I have walked for miles and miles and miles in hand with him with boots and then without boots! People have thought I am quite mad I am sure, but you grow a thick skin!!

I have had his hay analysed for sugar and starch and have a constant supply and ours are corralled during the winter months during the day and in at night so for the winter months I know exactly what he is eating. I use the Forage Plus Laminae Plus and feed additional copper and zinc. I had him tested for EMS and PPID and both came back negative - although I have to say I am not too sure that even the equine vets over here have the right of it with regard to testing for metabolic issues, so I manage him as though he was metabolic - they tested in the afternoon, I understand from Dr Kellon tests should be carried out in the morning, plus they insisted he was starved and I know that Dr Kellon doesn't agree with that procedure, but perhaps our labs are different to theirs and they are certainly far ahead of us with regard to testing.

He around two weeks ago became a bit of a nightmare leading out in hand even with no boots on - much too full of himself and he is a big strong horse, so we have now progressed to riding around the block but I get off and lead him down hills - he has had the back man several times since removal of shoes as sore feet equate to sore body, but no movement at all leads to feet that won't progress. I am guessing the accident with his upper axilla and therefore tight shoulder and feet that aren't 100% comfortable especially the back of the foot with the navicular diagnosis go hand in hand to being a bit careful down hills, so ever so easy to hop off and lead him down very steep ones.

So thats where we are now!! Along with battling a thrush infection and hole in both front feet central sulci which absolutely isn't helping the back of his foot issue!!

But on the upside, his feet are now much more 'under him', the hoof is growing down at a much better angle and the stretch and flare is reducing - I am rasping him myself as the farrier and barefoot trimmer made him sore - gave him pretty but sore feet - this is however with the help of pictures emailed to Maureen Tierney who is in the States who sends me back markups of where I should rasp which I have to say is not at all invasive - she is a strong believer that the horse shows where any rasping needs to be done, and I 'think' slowly but surely we are getting there.

So although not a quick fix by any stretch of the imagination for us, at least we can hack out now ridden which is a massive plus considering where we started and in addition, he doesn't fall over in the school when being lunged and he can now climb up on banks and down again without tripping over - I guess not having a great pixie toe in front of you can be helpful in situations like that!!

So just thought I would post an update - it hasn't been and still isn't easy, but I do believe I have done the right thing long term!
 
Sounds really good - and great that you have taken on his rehab yourself. One thing I have learned is to evaluate all that vets and farriers etc tell you, do the research, ask all the questions and keep adding to your knowledge. That is what saved my horse from a life of heartbar shoes and iffy soundness.
 
I've just clicked on this without paying attention to the date and was quite surprised to see I'd already replied! Glad things are progressing in the right direction even if progress is a tad slow at the moment. Sounds like you WILL get there if you keep doing what you're doing (and your horse stops running through fences / over stable doors!)

Mine is still a sensitive flower but feet looking a tad better than when I replied to the original thread, although I'm not looking forward to Spring! (I have a plan, I just know the pony isn't going to like it as it involves taking him off grass and making a paddock in the woods for him and a friend) We're aiming to ride the ridgeway with some other rehabs at the start of May so currently trying to build mileage. He still doesn't like stones or uneven ground but he never has and deep mud is treated with similar distain (think he worries about getting stuck...)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top