Thin TB and laminitis - alfalfa etc

[UKa]

Hi, very confused today as vet diagnosed my very fine, usually slightly underweight TB mare with laminitis ... vet came as horse came in lame on one front foot on Friday night. that is to say I found some swelling in fetlock and thought it was the leg so cold hosed and left over night. Next morning much better so turned out again as normal, then came back lame in the evening. Suspected foot absess at first and put poultice on but nothing showed up the day after (apart from some foul smell ...?) - then somebody said it looked more like a leg injury again so cold hosed and put bandage on over night with the result that swelling went but horse still slightly lame. After all that called vet today who made above diagnosis.

she has a history of azoturia and so I changed her diet to Alfa A Oil with big quantity of oil plus Spillers Hi fi nuts two years ago now to be told that she should not have alfalfa if she has laminitis now, I am just gutted as I wanted to get things right for one condition only to trigger the next or what is going on? Friends at the yard cannot believe it is really laminitis her feet were not even that hot and she was only lame on one leg etc. Inclined to get second opinion or the farrier out what does everyone think this could be and any experience or known links with alfalfa and laminitis? Please also note the horse is unshod (with very nice hard hooves).

Looking forward to opinions/ experience reports ...

THANKS!

 

[ihatework]

Does sound an odd diagnosis and probably worth a second opinion. In the meantime treat it as if it is lami just to be on the safe side, deep shavings bed, and a lami approved feed,

 

[Nudibranch]

Sounds v odd. As for the alfalfa, its a main ingredient in HiFi and Hifi Light ( which are also Dengie) which is used with laminitics....it certainly does the trick with my lami shetland! Who said it was linked to laminitis (in a bad way)?

 

[Nari]

I'd want a second opinion, though as Ben_&_Jerrys said I'd treat as lami in the meantime just to be safe.

Do a Google for the Laminitis Trust & give them a call for feed advice. I thought unmollassed alfalfa was fairly safe!

 

[Touchwood]

I have had a TB laminitis case this year - the conditions have been perfect for it, and there have been more cases then ever this year.
Being shoeless it is likely that you noticed this immediately so hopefully not too serious?

Also - how is the trim? It could possibly be mechanical laminitis? Does the horse have long toes/too much growth/lots of flare?

 

[Tia]

I have to say, if I was you I would be raising some eyebrows in your vet's direction if he is advising not feeding alfalfa. We grow alfalfa, and in moderation it is beneficial for horses prone to laminitis. We feed it in it's natural state along with grass hay, however what you buy from Dengie is somewhat similar. Your vet is at best, mistaken.

http://www.dengie.com/pages/feeding-horses/why-alfalfa.php

 

[custard]

I won't bore you with the saga of W's feet but suffice to say he is 7/8 TB and had serious lami before I bought him (he was bred and previously owned by two very well known showing professionals) complete with the rotated pedal bones etc.

A few months after I got him he had a further mild dose which was spotted early probably because he was un shod at the time so be thankful you've caught it early. He also used to have trouble holding weight and so I got him on a very similar diet to yours using products endorsed by the Lami Trust.

Anyway, I've recently found out that many of the products still have molasses added as binders and fillers, including Alfa A etc and whilst these alone won't cause lami (fructan and starches being the main offenders) most horses get more than enough sugar in their diet from grass. Put another way added sugar won't help a laminitic at all.

For the moment treat her as laminitic and follow the vets advice to the letter. When you start feeding her properly again consider using Simple System feeds and have a look on their site meanwhile. Their feeds are alfalfa based but free from added sugar, economical to feed and friends who've tried them have noticed a marked improvement in their horses' feet, although I probably wouldn't use the quantities they recommend.

 

[UKa]

hi, thanks for this - her feet tend to get lots of flare but we have had not so much hoof growth all this year so they have kept relatively round but yes, she tends to get a lot of flare towards the next trimming ...?!

She has flat feet is that a trigger? Do you mean it may be related to her foot conformation?

 

[vicijp]

I have a thin TB with lamiitis at the moment. His was triggered by a virus, so may be worth running a blood to see if there is an underlying cause that needs treatment.

 

[UKa]

ineresting ... oh dear it is such a complicated matter isnt it!

 

[UKa]

true about the molasses, but I use Alfa A Oil which I understand is molasses free and she only gets handful of hi fi nuts (spillers) ... anyway, have contacted nutritionists for some answers hopefully as to what to feed ...

 

[jaimep]

I'd be interested to talk to your vet.

There is a (currently increasingly fashionable) theory that protien (higher in alfalfa) as well as concentrated carbs can be a contributary causative to laminitis.

Are there any other symptoms ? such as increase in digital pulse, heat in hooves, footiness, reluctance to move, typical lami stance, depression, long (flared) toes, flat soles, lami rings' high heels? etc...

the swollen fetlock would not indicate laminitis.

has your vet asked for xrays? made ony other reccomendations?

best thing you could do is get an EP out to see the horse (but I would say that wouldnt I!?)

 

[UKa]

Hi, interesting - the symtoms you describe are almost not present. She is not really reluctant to move just a bit footy. Also she is very happy in herself still ... what he found was sensitivity across the whole of the foot and coronary band, not much extra heat in foot if any ...
I have asked my farrier to come up to take a look ...

 

[MagicMelon]

I read that alfalfa is actually very good to be fed to laminitics because it is high in antioxidants! Bloody better be as Ive been feeding it to my 2 lami ponies!

It doesnt sound like lami to me TBH. Any horse can get it, even a thin TB (could be stress caused etc.) but the fact the horse is only lame on one is odd. And the fact there is no heat and has been swelling in that one leg...... What were his reasons for thinking it was laminitis?

Personally I would treat the horse as though she does have it (just to be sure) and see if she begins to improve. If not, then Id get a second opinion. I would get the farrier out pronto though - IMO they are far better knowing hooves than vets are! Vets DO make mistakes (they claimed one of mine had cushings 5 years ago just because "he was the right age to have it".... right!!).

 

[UKa]

hi, thanks for this, got farrier coming out next week I hope he finds it is not laminitis ...
But the symptoms were extreme sensitivity all over both front feet and a dishing movement in trot also sensitive coronary band ...

got reply from one of the food manufacturers today praising alfalfa too so I hope I havent gone completely wrong ...

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
I read that alfalfa is actually very good to be fed to laminitics because it is high in antioxidants!

[/ QUOTE ]

It is. Not sure where these people are getting their research from, but it is incorrect.

Dried nettles are also a great anti-toxin.

 

[bensababy]

if i am correct i also believe "sticky grass" is also a good one.

 

[Doublethyme]

Hate to say it, but alfalfa has caused low grade lami symptoms in my mare. Mostly it is recommended for laminitis as it is a good source of protein and low sugar/starch, however, there has been some anecdotal evidence on barefoot forums that it has caused footiness (low grade laminitis) in some barefoot horses. This is (I think) thought to be due to its high calcium content, which can prohibit the intake of magnesium. Magnesium being found to be one of the things that many horses lack in their grazing etc and which is an essential mineral.

Many laminitics appear to need extra magnesium due to poor absorbtion for various reasons - a feed high in calcium like Alfalfa could then cause problems in such a horse as the imbalance would be greater. You may find that just by adding more Magnesium to the diet may counter balance.

This is very much a laymans explanation, so I take no responsibility for its accuracy (I'm no expert, just been there, got the T-shirt with my own mare!), but I would recommend doing a search on Low Grade Laminitis particularly on barefoot forums (Enlightened Equitation is a good place to start for this).

Certainly in my mare alfalfa caused us problems even though on paper it should be one of the best feeds for a laminitic. Therefore be careful with the Simple Systems recommendation - again suits lots of horses due to the non mollasses, but most of the feeds are alfalfa based and caused my mare no end of problems, even though she is fine on Hifi lite as long as she gets additional magnesium.

Also I think you should be thanking your vet for such an early diagnosis - most vets wait till the horse is classic laminitic stance and in agony. I think that the symptoms you describe could well be low grade laminitis (of course could be other things as well but your vet is the expert and has seen the horse) - certainly my mare was only slightly footy on one foot and a bit puffy on the fetlocks but I have proved with time and diet/turnout experimentation that she suffers low grade laminitis.

 

[UKa]

hi, thanks for this post, it is very interesting indeed and I will take this into account and also follow up the barefoot forum you mentioned.

In the meantime I have asked the vet to do an x ray next week for my own sake that I know where I stand and also for the farrier if he needs to do any particular remedial work. I hope that we got away lightly. Fingers crossed.

How did you find she is ok on HI Fi lite?did you have a blood test done to find she was lacking magnesium?

Thanks for your post!