This is getting dangerous - sign of pain??

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hillbilly

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Okay, its like this. My daughter's pony is a 12.3 welsh half-bred. We love her dearly, but has a bit of a murky past! She is pasported as being 16yrs old, but was only pasported when the law came in that said horses had to be, by her past owners, and her age is a complete guess. Her teeth look approximately right for her age, though she struggles with chaff, despite having regular dental visits, and though she is dark dun, she is going grey around her eyes. She is broken to drive, apparently that is what she has been used for in the past. There is a sizable splint on her right fore, and she has arthritis in her front fetlocks and hocks, as diagnosed by the vet. Needless to say, she is on bute. She has always been a fast jumper, but it is getting RIDICULOUS! We are talking flat out gallop, uncontrollable, scarily fast, so that no other children other than my own daughter are allowed on. She will do this on sight of a pole, even if it is just lying on the ground. Today the flat out gallop over only small jumps ended with her either only stopping when up against the stone wall or the railings. Is it time for retirement? I have heard that fast jumping is actually just a sign of fear and wanting it to be over as soon as possible - in the past we have taken her nuttiness when sighting a jump as sign of excitement, but is it the reverse? Because people are saying that she will be unbeatable around the clock, its just naughtiness, do terrified horses actually gallop towards jumps? Who has one like this? - what would you all do? Her back is the soundest thing about her, and her saddle is fitted just for her. Though strong bits have been tried (pelhams, butterfly bits, tom thumb), and also bitless - dr cooks, hackamores, in the end nothing can stop her, so snaffles are the bit du jour.......help! She is on fast fibre and Hifi molasses free and she is an absolute angel on the ground!
 
Perhaps it isn't her back, perhaps the pain is on take off or landing in her feet / legs / shoulders / anywhere else except her back. What is her flatwork like? If she is well balanced, calm & responsive in all paces on circles, straight lines, changes of pace & direction, goes on & comes back when asked, ok with pole work then I would suspect it is the jumping causing pain. If pony is not calm, well balanced & responsive in flatwork then I would be working on that & forget jumping until flatwork sorted. Sadly all too often we see ponies tanking round with riders who, at best, are only steering & at worst seemingly on a death mission! Yes they may win everything flat out but it's not doing pony or rider any good. I hope you get it sorted.
 
Well, if you take the poles away (none on the ground anywhere in the school), she then goes into donkey mode and trundles around quite happily. Transitions are prompt, she tracks up well and evenly and is straight, no twisting. She is very well behaved. We sought the vets advice last year when she started to buck on one rein when asked to canter on a circle, and the bute was given as he was pretty sure it was arthritis in her hocks which was causing her pain. Certainly, her bucking then stopped. She gained 61% in her prelim dressage too.
 
I would add that she is reluctant to extend (well won't basically), yes, they do resemble a pairing on a death mission!!! and that she is now occasionally stumbling quite badly down hill. We took her shoes off, and she wears hoof boots to dampen any concussive forces.
 
personally i think that if its a new behaviour it is pain related and stop jumping either all together or until the pain has been located and treateted.
ive seen far too many nasty accidents from similar behaviour its not worth putting your daughter at risk
 
Sounds like my mare, used to rush jumps and even poles on the ground. Would then cat leap. Gave up jumping her. Flat work was incredible in the school however she struggled out hacking going downhill. Never trotted up lame or had obvious pain in back or hocks and vet checked repeatedly.
After some time off she came back into work and started to buck in right lead canter - only little ones but did xrays of her back and found her wither vertebra are crushed together. Vet couldn't believe it as doesn't respond to the hardest poking and prodding there. Very old injury as totally remodelled, possibly from going over backwards at some point. Jumping would have caused her intense pain on landing, more than she could deal with but far too generous a mare to stop. From her flatwork you definitely wouldn't have known at all, she offered the most amazing extensions when fully fit and balanced.
 
Haven't read any other replies, but my loan mare flies at jumps and it is quite dangerous the speed she goes, and will take off 2-3 strides out sometimes. Which doesn't end pretty. It's awful when she stops jumping too. I've never come off, but have come close to.

She has jumped steadily before, and is fab when she does. Most rounds though, she gets progressively faster.

I now just do dressage and hack, and a little bit of XC (doesn't go fast XC, only SJ), and we are both happy working at that.

Neither of us were enjoying the SJ, so why persist at something if it's not having a happy ending.

ETA- flat work she works beautifully. No issues extending etc and well balanced. No problems going down hill either. She has suspected arthritic changes in her hocks, but not diagnosed for sure, only by the way she moves and swings her hinds in slightly.
 
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I would talk to your vet about the possibility of doing a Bute trial. That way you can find out if its pain related although she may already psychologically associate poles with pain already.
 
How long have you owned her for?
From your post, it sounds as though she is becoming steadily worse and I would worry that this could end very badly for your daughter.
As she is already on bute, I would think it is perhaps time to retire her from jumping and stick to what she is safe doing. :)
 
As she has been diagnosed with arthritis in her fetlocks and hocks I personally would not be jumping her at all - jumping will put such a strain on these already painful joints. I would have her on a good joint supplement and stick to dressage.
 
I would say pain.
She already has arthritis and on Bute, such an extreme reaction makes me think she wants to get it over with.

Or its a learnt behavior from when she was is pain before the bute.

Get more checks done through vet and stop jumping.
Go back to basics with poles and flatwork.
 
The issue with the fetlocks would be enough to stop me jumping and as this a kids pony I would definatly say just don't do it, it's just not worth the risk to the child.
 
OK - firstly I would like to say that this is not like me at all and I won't usually have a bit of a go on these boards, but this thread has wound me right up.

1) You know your pony has arthritis in the fetlocks and arthritis = pain. If enough pain is being experienced that a vet has prescribed bute for it (and I realise you have not said how much is being given) then surely that would give you a clue that your pony is not comfortable.

2) You should also know that jumping (well landing particularly) puts immense strain on the front legs of a pony, especially the fetlock.

So why on this heavenly planet are you having to ask whether your pony rushing is a sign of pain??

Of course it bloomin' well is.

She's trying to run away from the pain and the more you jump the worse it will get. Would you like if you had sore ankles and someone made you run and then jump with a weight on your back?

Stop jumping before someone gets really badly hurt and you kn&cker the poor thing completely.
 
In answer to the question about whether a horse can run *towards* a jump if they're in pain while jumping, the answer is yes.

The reason is as follows. When we train horses to jump - and this especially applies to children's ponies who are required to be more reliable - we make a point of making it difficult or impossible for them to refuse to jump. We do this by making the consequences of refusing unpleasant - for example, the pony is represented and given an "encouraging" tap with a whip to get them forward.

Now, put yourself in the position of the pony. What have you learned about jumps? If you don't jump as asked, something you dislike happens. If you do jump, it's uncomfortable. So you have a choice - refuse and have double the discomfort (consequence of refusing *and* the discomfort of the jump) or get the pain over as fast as possible. Effectively the pony is running away from something that hurts, but because they know they can't refuse to do it, they do it in a flustered panic. Suppose there's something you have to do, but you've pulled a muscle - let's say putting on your socks ;) Do you do (a) go out without socks, (b) do it painfully slowly inch by painful inch or (c) get it over with quickly while grunting and flinching as you do it? Not a perfect comparison, but hopefully you see how difficult the choice is for the pony!
 
Thank you every one for your replies. The small jumping session was the first one since she had been on bute, and we have not attempted it since, in fact, due to the way she behaved on the day of my post, and your replies, she is now retired to the field. The vet has visited again and in his view, that fact that she was driven for most of her early life has been the main cause of her arthritis. He thinks its in basically all of her leg joints, with changes in one front hoof. We will see how comfortable we can keep her over winter - probably a balancing act between giving her ample turnout to minimise stiffness, and offering cosy stabling on wet horrid nights. Again, thanks for your thoughts.
 
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