This is why I keep banging on about magnesium......

YoungNag22 said:
Very interesting - so is it better just to feed it or get grazing & hay analysed?
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Analysis if you can - it reveals all sorts of other excesses or deficiencies. My soil was analysed years ago and revealed very low magnesium, and since I have home grown hay I kind of assume it is the same. If you can't or if you source hay from lots of places, you can feed it anyway, there is no toxic level.
 
Great thanks - we have the farms home grown hay too so guessing I could just get a soil analysis done and that will probably be the same results wise for the hay? I don't know anything about soil analysis is there anyone you would recommend?
 
I had forage analysis done, rather than soil - there is the possibility that nutrients in soil aren't taken up by plants so the two profiles might be slightly different. It was a local feed company who organised the analysis for me. Discovered we have really high levels of iron and iodine which was very useful to know.
 
Whilst the information might be perfectly sound, I make a point of taking with a pinch of salt any 'scientific' information presented to me by someone selling something.
Come back when it has been scientifically tested, repeated and peer reviewed by an independent credible body.

(I admit to being a cynic - In my household we routinely refer to the 'scientific sounding' ingredient in commercials for shampoo etc. as "gullibleine".)
 
pennyturner said:
Whilst the information might be perfectly sound, I make a point of taking with a pinch of salt any 'scientific' information presented to me by someone selling something.
Come back when it has been scientifically tested, repeated and peer reviewed by an independent credible body.

(I admit to being a cynic - In my household we routinely refer to the 'scientific sounding' ingredient in commercials for shampoo etc. as "gullibleine".)
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Healthy cynicism is good, especially with shampoo adverts.

BUT there is no money in recommending upping magnesium - it is cheaply and readily available from a multitude of supplements and directly as a raw ingredient. So what is the article selling ( I cant open it at work, but think I've read it before).

The research is only done, if there is a justification or commercial opportunity. If something is readily available and not patentable, there is no interest in doing proper research into the effectiveness, as there is no profit margin.

It is one of the sad things, research is rarely to open mindedly curing problems and increasing health, it has to typically follow the profit margins.

You can buy Magnesium oxide in form CalMag in 25kg sacks from agricultural merchants for under £10 and same for Magnesium chloride. That is a 5 month supple for my two horses. So not much profit margin in it for a manufacturer!!!
 
pennyturner said:
Whilst the information might be perfectly sound, I make a point of taking with a pinch of salt any 'scientific' information presented to me by someone selling something.
Come back when it has been scientifically tested, repeated and peer reviewed by an independent credible body.

(I admit to being a cynic - In my household we routinely refer to the 'scientific sounding' ingredient in commercials for shampoo etc. as "gullibleine".)
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Dr Eleanor Kellon doesn't sell magnesium and has no financial benefit if you choose to use it. She writes, teaches, runs online courses and you can agree or disagree with her theories (and I agree there is a lack of research out there) but it's not based on pushing a feed.


Re getting an analysis
Soil analysis is useful if it's your own land and you are looking an improving it but the grass and hay grown on that land may not reflect this as there are many factor that influence how this translates into the forage.
For that you will need a forage analysis, Forageplus, Healthy Horse plus some of the big feed companies can do a mineral analysis however translating those into what do supplement is tricky and you would probably need a feedplan done which gets more expensive.
 
My understanding is that magnesium levels in grass change dramatically according to the stage of growth, they are usually low in spring when the grass is growing fast, because growth outstrips uptake, but will rise significantly when growth slows. For this reason, I supplement more in spring/ early summer than the rest of the year. Not sure how you would work out how much your horse was getting without multiple analyses, would be very difficult I should think.
 
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EQUIDAE said:
Too much magnesium can be just as bad as too little
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What is the source/evidence for this? I have been feeding a generous amount of MagOx for over 10 years and never had any problems. I doubt very much whether that is the case, any excess is excreted in the normal way, but am happy to be convinced if the evidence supports it
 
JillA said:
What is the source/evidence for this? I have been feeding a generous amount of MagOx for over 10 years and never had any problems. I doubt very much whether that is the case, any excess is excreted in the normal way, but am happy to be convinced if the evidence supports it
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To much magnesium actually makes the situation worse as it can stop the animals ability to use what is stored in the body so it actually becomes dependant on artificial sources to maintain its need. It is a known phenomena in dairy cows (an animal that has a huge need of magnesium) that over supplemented cows are more prone to staggers than those that are managed correctly . This is because the animal cannot use its reserves at the time of greatest need ie going onto lush spring or autumn grass.
By the way Jilla where do you come up with the assumption that large tracts of the UK are deficient in magnesium as that is not the case just a story put about by those selling a product ! Sorry but nearly all shortages of magnesium are brought about by quick growing forage that cannot take up magnesium quickly enough. Horse kept on slow growing normal pasture will always find enough magnesium in their grazing the only problem occurs when people start feeding it as a supplement thats not needed.
Have you read the recent research coming out of the states that after looking at serious rotational falls in eventing that there is in the majority of cases one common denominator . The use of magnesium calmers!!
 
Very true with regards soil nutrients being taken up by the plant ! See I would also suggest unless you analyse every bale that forage analysis can only at best be a guess but admittedly a good one however if by any chance you actiually pick a rogue bale from an untypical area that may give you a totally false impression.. On the farm now we regularly test for micro nutrients using tissue samples during the growing season.
 
popsdosh said:
Have you read the recent research coming out of the states that after looking at serious rotational falls in eventing that there is in the majority of cases one common denominator . The use of magnesium calmers!!
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do you have a link to this please? because the only thing I've read about it was a half-baked accusation by someone trying to sell another type of supplement.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
do you have a link to this please? because the only thing I've read about it was a half-baked accusation by someone trying to sell another type of supplement.
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There was an article on it in Nag and dog not so long ago. I believe it is being looked into more deeply and may lead to a more enthusiastic checking of the rules.
 
A lot of people with horses that suffer from ulcers are finding magnesium oxide to be an irritant. There are now supplements (not many) out there containing magnesium carbonate which work just as well but are kinder to the stomach
 
popsdosh said:
There was an article on it in Nag and dog not so long ago. I believe it is being looked into more deeply and may lead to a more enthusiastic checking of the rules.
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It was a feed/supplement company (can't remember which off the top of my head) that wrote that article and they had to withdraw it and issue an apology....
 
excess magnesium is not harmless. It can interfere with uptake of some other minerals and has been accused of CAUSING excitement in horses when used in excess. It also causes diarrhoea at high levels.
Of course, an excessive amount will depend on the current status of each individual horse's own levels, so some may be deficient even though they are kept with others that are not deficient.
 
wkiwi said:
excess magnesium is not harmless. It can interfere with uptake of some other minerals and has been accused of CAUSING excitement in horses when used in excess. It also causes diarrhoea at high levels.
Of course, an excessive amount will depend on the current status of each individual horse's own levels, so some may be deficient even though they are kept with others that are not deficient.
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Where have you seen this please wkiwi? I can only find negative stuff about feeding Mg from the Equifest site and via a few articles from Malcolm Green, who is the founder of equifest. I feed quite a lot of it at this time of year and I'm always interested in any good research, whether it's for or against, thanks.
 
MrsNorris said:
Where have you seen this please wkiwi? I can only find negative stuff about feeding Mg from the Equifest site and via a few articles from Malcolm Green, who is the founder of equifest. I feed quite a lot of it at this time of year and I'm always interested in any good research, whether it's for or against, thanks.
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Try 'Google Scholar' and include veterinary in amongst the search terms. I do have some downloaded articles somewhere (research published, not testimonials/web claims) but i just had a quick look and can't find it. I'll try a proper search later but maybe someone with a better memory than me could give authors/publications. The research on causing excitement was from about 5 years ago (or maybe a bit more), but doesn't of course apply if the horse has a genuine deficiency.
Unfortunately though, I think many people are diagnosing deficiency just because the horse is anxious or naughty, which can of course be caused by many other factors. I do get alarmed by the number of different products people use assuming they are safe without any side effects just because they are not synthetic drugs, but of course there are real deficiencies out there too.
 
wkiwi said:
Try 'Google Scholar' and include veterinary in amongst the search terms. I do have some downloaded articles somewhere (research published, not testimonials/web claims) but i just had a quick look and can't find it. I'll try a proper search later but maybe someone with a better memory than me could give authors/publications. The research on causing excitement was from about 5 years ago (or maybe a bit more), but doesn't of course apply if the horse has a genuine deficiency.
Unfortunately though, I think many people are diagnosing deficiency just because the horse is anxious or naughty, which can of course be caused by many other factors. I do get alarmed by the number of different products people use assuming they are safe without any side effects just because they are not synthetic drugs, but of course there are real deficiencies out there too.
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Still can't find anything, only stuff about animals with compromised renal function and when it's used in high doses (magnesium sulphate) to treat impaction colic, but that's due to other factors too, dehydration and electrolyte imbalances etc.

Can't find anything which confirms that feeding Mg can lead to hypermagnesemia, only that it's a very rare condition in otherwise healthy animals.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, it's past my bedtime, I'm up at 4:30 every day (bread baker), gotta sleep now..
 
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