Those experienced in breaking youngsters...

[Speedyfluff]

I broke my old mare in nearly 20 years ago and she was absolutely good as gold from start to finish. I never had a problem with bucking or rearing apart from once when she was six and got a bit excited. But she never had me off. My youngster, who's four has been more challenging, especially on the lunge where we have had quite a few teething problems but he's being good now and I will soon be ready to lean over him. My question is, for those who break in a lot of horses, how common is it to have a horse buck or rear with you after backing? The reason I ask is that I may be taking on a just backed three year old who I went to see yesterday. He was doing really well but then bucked several times with his owner and then went right up, and she came off. Apparently never done this before, but owner is used to breaking in youngsters and said it is common to get these kinds of problems and it is probably a one off. I'm not so sure, or was I just very lucky with my old mare? I did back four other horses before her whilst working at a stud, and only one of them had a lasting problem with bucking. I didn't mind dealing with it then as I was very young and brave, but I am much older now and don't want to take on too much trouble.

 

[MagicMelon]

Hmm I dont think its ideal, but I wouldn't worry much about one who bucked a little at the very beginning, my mare who I backed last year had me on the floor twice through bronking within 10 minutes in the same session when I asked her to walk on. However, after that she never bucked again (and still hasn't to this day, and never reared etc.). So it doesn't mean there's something bad about them. A rearer is a different story for me personally, I wouldn't accept a rearer as I find once they know how to do it it can escalate really quickly and its not something I could ever accept in a horse. The odd buck can be put down to exciteability but a rearer is objecting in a different way. I think I'd base my decision very much on their temperament and attitude to other work like lungeing, if it had a nice willing forward thinking temperament then I'd give it a go but run a mile if it was a narky backwards sort of horse!

 

[PorkChop]

I find that if you spend enough time on the ground and not progressing until they are rock solid with one stage they tend not to be naughty for initial backing and riding away.

I have had lots of youngsters that get a little more "expressive" once they are past that initial stage, feeling well, feeling fitter and generally enjoying themselves iykwim.

I think if I had a just backed youngster who was being regularly naughty then I would go back a stage - but maybe I have just been lucky

 

[Speedyfluff]

Hmm I dont think its ideal, but I wouldn't worry much about one who bucked a little at the very beginning, my mare who I backed last year had me on the floor twice through bronking within 10 minutes in the same session when I asked her to walk on. However, after that she never bucked again (and still hasn't to this day, and never reared etc.). So it doesn't mean there's something bad about them. A rearer is a different story for me personally, I wouldn't accept a rearer as I find once they know how to do it it can escalate really quickly and its not something I could ever accept in a horse. The odd buck can be put down to exciteability but a rearer is objecting in a different way. I think I'd base my decision very much on their temperament and attitude to other work like lungeing, if it had a nice willing forward thinking temperament then I'd give it a go but run a mile if it was a narky backwards sort of horse!

Thanks, I think I will give this one a miss then. Maybe stick to my boy who will likely challenge me enough.

 

[dianchi]

Have to agree with LJR, behaviour is either not settled at the previous stage. Or if there is an "issue" mine played up as saddle was a smidge tight- and i mean a smidge!

 

[Speedyfluff]

I find that if you spend enough time on the ground and not progressing until they are rock solid with one stage they tend not to be naughty for initial backing and riding away.

I have had lots of youngsters that get a little more "expressive" once they are past that initial stage, feeling well, feeling fitter and generally enjoying themselves iykwim.

I think if I had a just backed youngster who was being regularly naughty then I would go back a stage - but maybe I have just been lucky

Thanks. That is what I have found in my very limited experience backing. Once I saw him go up I decided not to get on him. But the comment from his owner that it was common in just backed horses got me worrying my own boy would do it, and maybe I'm getting too old to be backing horses. I was feeling so happy with him until this put doubts in my head.

 

[be positive]

I have backed many and have rarely encountered a problem with bucking, usually going back a step resolves this, rearing I only came across one that reared early on, I felt there was something more going on, it headshook badly, as it was a small pony and the owner wanted me to sell after backing I refused to go any further without veterinary checks and sent it home, rearing is something I will not tolerate, a one off if something worries them but to go vertical and do it more than once is a sign of a deep rooted problem either physical or shows there are big gaps in their handling.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Have to agree with LJR, behaviour is either not settled at the previous stage. Or if there is an "issue" mine played up as saddle was a smidge tight- and i mean a smidge!

Some horses are definitely more stoic than others. My old mare, bless her would have to have a leg hanging off before she would even look lame. She is as tough as old boots. A friend of mine has a mare where the slightest flicker of pain would have her napping.

I have backed many and have rarely encountered a problem with bucking, usually going back a step resolves this, rearing I only came across one that reared early on, I felt there was something more going on, it headshook badly, as it was a small pony and the owner wanted me to sell after backing I refused to go any further without veterinary checks and sent it home, rearing is something I will not tolerate, a one off if something worries them but to go vertical and do it more than once is a sign of a deep rooted problem either physical or shows there are big gaps in their handling.

That's made me feel a bit better. I am taking all the time in the world with my boy. Nothing will be rushed. My method with him is that he must do at least three sessions faultlessly at each small stage before moving on to the next. We stalled for a long time lungeing without tack. I'd get to two good sessions then he'd play up again so I didn't move on to wearing tack until he did three good ones in a row. I keep the sessions really short because I don't like to lunge youngsters very much, I only do it to get them used to the idea of circles and the voice commands.

 

[be positive]

Some horses are definitely more stoic than others. My old mare, bless her would have to have a leg hanging off before she would even look lame. She is as tough as old boots. A friend of mine has a mare where the slightest flicker of pain would have her napping.



That's made me feel a bit better. I am taking all the time in the world with my boy. Nothing will be rushed. My method with him is that he must do at least three sessions faultlessly at each small stage before moving on to the next. We stalled for a long time lungeing without tack. I'd get to two good sessions then he'd play up again so I didn't move on to wearing tack until he did three good ones in a row. I keep the sessions really short because I don't like to lunge youngsters very much, I only do it to get them used to the idea of circles and the voice commands.

Your plan is good, it takes as long as it takes if you want to do a good job, the only word of caution with aiming for 3 sessions to be really good before you move on is be careful he does not become bored with the repetition, some bright youngsters need to be pushed a bit, mentally more than physically, to avoid them thinking up their own way to do something, part of the skill involved is knowing when to crack on and when to slow down, or go back a step or two, playing up is not always a negative it may be him saying "I want to do more", rules are made to be broken when working with horses, make sure you listen to him and you will have a horse that is a pleasure to work with.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Your plan is good, it takes as long as it takes if you want to do a good job, the only word of caution with aiming for 3 sessions to be really good before you move on is be careful he does not become bored with the repetition, some bright youngsters need to be pushed a bit, mentally more than physically, to avoid them thinking up their own way to do something, part of the skill involved is knowing when to crack on and when to slow down, or go back a step or two, playing up is not always a negative it may be him saying "I want to do more", rules are made to be broken when working with horses, make sure you listen to him and you will have a horse that is a pleasure to work with.

Thanks. I had wondered a bit about that. I do try to do something else too in each session such as halting at the mounting block and me leaning over and scratching him. Me jumping up and down on the mounting block etc. Various other in hand stuff. But yes, I think that sometimes it is boredom with him. I'll try to be careful to look out for that.

 

[Barnacle]

Bucking is fairly common if the horse hasn't had much desensitisation done before the saddle/rider is introduced (which is often the case in the UK) - but rearing isn't. Rearing is not a "natural" response to have - think of a zebra being attacked by a lion - they buck, never rear. And it's not excitement either, which bucking often is. So if the horse is rearing, it tells me there's something more serious 'off' either with the horse itself (i.e. physical/pain) or with the training prior to that stage. And I would not believe the owner saying it was a first. Passing on that one is a good decision.

 

[Kezzabell2]

In my experience, I sent my horse away to be backed, because he'd been a s h i t on the ground!! I was convinced that he was going to rear when someone sat on him!! He DIDN'T

but he has done since, but it has always been because of pain or confusion!

So I would make sure the horse isn't in pain before you totally think its being horrible.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Bucking is fairly common if the horse hasn't had much desensitisation done before the saddle/rider is introduced (which is often the case in the UK) - but rearing isn't. Rearing is not a "natural" response to have - think of a zebra being attacked by a lion - they buck, never rear. And it's not excitement either, which bucking often is. So if the horse is rearing, it tells me there's something more serious 'off' either with the horse itself (i.e. physical/pain) or with the training prior to that stage. And I would not believe the owner saying it was a first. Passing on that one is a good decision.

Thanks for that. Yes, when I saw him go up straight after bucking I thought I certainly wasn't going to get on him. My boy is good with the saddle. Never even bucked, but he has reared on the lunge (without tack). He's pretty much stopped that now though. I think it was dominance behaviour. He's very bossy with other horses despite his age. I think he was having a strop with me. He's been great the last couple of weeks though. Hopefully I won't get the behaviour under saddle. But I am being very careful and slow with him. He's already used to me leaning a lot of weight over him and scratching him on the other side. He seems to really enjoy it.

 

[Speedyfluff]

In my experience, I sent my horse away to be backed, because he'd been a s h i t on the ground!! I was convinced that he was going to rear when someone sat on him!! He DIDN'T

but he has done since, but it has always been because of pain or confusion!

So I would make sure the horse isn't in pain before you totally think its being horrible.

Hope your boy is over that now. It could have been the saddle with the horse I viewed as it seemed too far forward on him, but it's made me decide to just stick with my boy for now. I think he will be challenging enough.

 

[Kezzabell2]

Hope your boy is over that now. It could have been the saddle with the horse I viewed as it seemed too far forward on him, but it's made me decide to just stick with my boy for now. I think he will be challenging enough.

unfortunately, he's not! he has some ongoing issues (basically has arthritis at 5) so he's by no means fixed. He's had his hocks fused and he back end seems to be working well now!! but still issues with his front feet! so having special shoes tomorrow

I thought he'd started napping recently and then he went lame, so at least I know that when he does rear its his way of telling me he is in pain! he is by no means a nasty horse and "touch wood" has never tried to get me off but he seems to know that I will take notice if he goes up!!

 

[Speedyfluff]

unfortunately, he's not! he has some ongoing issues (basically has arthritis at 5) so he's by no means fixed. He's had his hocks fused and he back end seems to be working well now!! but still issues with his front feet! so having special shoes tomorrow

I thought he'd started napping recently and then he went lame, so at least I know that when he does rear its his way of telling me he is in pain! he is by no means a nasty horse and "touch wood" has never tried to get me off but he seems to know that I will take notice if he goes up!!

Oh no, that is so young to be having such problems. Not fair at all! The reason I got a youngster was after having to retire my other gelding at only 12 years old, and throwing lots of money at trying to fix him, I wanted an unspoilt youngster. But it's not always guaranteed, as your boy proves. I hope that you manage to solve his problems. It's such a rollercoaster.

 

[HashRouge]

That sort of behaviour suggests the horse probably wasn't started quite as well as it could have been, possibly it didn't do a huge amount of ground work before it was ridden. I spent the past few years working as an SJ groom and all the horses backed on our yards (I worked at two different places) responded very well to being backed, including one mare who I thought would be a holy terror! But on both yards, the horses did a lot of ground work before they were backed. My boss on the first yard favoured lunging, at first without tack then graduating to saddle and bridle, and didn't get on until he felt the horses were settled and comfortable with what they were being asked to do (so horses started at the same time would not necessarily be sat on at the same time). At the second yard, we had a very good young bloke who came in to back the youngsters as my boss didn't have time, and he favoured long reining, although he did some lunging as well once the horses were working well in tack on the long reins. I was always his lead rein assistant and I would definitely recommend him to anyone in the area with horses that need starting, as he is very good! All the youngsters started on these two yards took very well to being ridden, and learned walk, trot, canter and started jumping with no bucking or rearing fits whatsoever. One incredibly quirky but talented gelding on the second yard did throw the odd rear when over-excited (I disagree with Barnacle there - this horse's rearing is definitely related to over-excitement, although his ginormous attitude probably contributes too!) but that actually developed later when he started to go out and about and found himself in excitable situations (hacking/ shows) and I don't remember him doing it when recently backed. Unsurprisingly, it is a habit he is growing out of. However, we did have one horse come to us after it had been backed that obviously hadn't been started very well and he would throw the most incredible, terrifying rearing fits I've ever seen. With him it was quite clearly about evasion as he would do it when he didn't want to go - so at the gate to the school, or leaving the yard on a hack, and I know that he threw some bucking fits under saddle as well. He was very recently backed when he came to us too - only 4 weeks or so - and my boss's GF, who was to be his rider, was aghast that such a newly backed horse could have such a startling repertoire of evasion techniques! And unlike our 4 year old, this one would rear numerous times in succession and go up so high you thought he would go over! Now, obviously I don't know exactly how this horse was started, but I can only imagine that whoever it was didn't do a very good job and that is why this horse behaved like this. On the plus side, 3-4 months later he is now a reformed character and unrecognizable as the devil horse who arrived, so you can undo the damage. But IMO it is not normal for a horse to be like IF they are backed well.

 

[Speedyfluff]

That sort of behaviour suggests the horse probably wasn't started quite as well as it could have been, possibly it didn't do a huge amount of ground work before it was ridden. I spent the past few years working as an SJ groom and all the horses backed on our yards (I worked at two different places) responded very well to being backed, including one mare who I thought would be a holy terror! But on both yards, the horses did a lot of ground work before they were backed. My boss on the first yard favoured lunging, at first without tack then graduating to saddle and bridle, and didn't get on until he felt the horses were settled and comfortable with what they were being asked to do (so horses started at the same time would not necessarily be sat on at the same time). At the second yard, we had a very good young bloke who came in to back the youngsters as my boss didn't have time, and he favoured long reining, although he did some lunging as well once the horses were working well in tack on the long reins. I was always his lead rein assistant and I would definitely recommend him to anyone in the area with horses that need starting, as he is very good! All the youngsters started on these two yards took very well to being ridden, and learned walk, trot, canter and started jumping with no bucking or rearing fits whatsoever. One incredibly quirky but talented gelding on the second yard did throw the odd rear when over-excited (I disagree with Barnacle there - this horse's rearing is definitely related to over-excitement, although his ginormous attitude probably contributes too!) but that actually developed later when he started to go out and about and found himself in excitable situations (hacking/ shows) and I don't remember him doing it when recently backed. Unsurprisingly, it is a habit he is growing out of. However, we did have one horse come to us after it had been backed that obviously hadn't been started very well and he would throw the most incredible, terrifying rearing fits I've ever seen. With him it was quite clearly about evasion as he would do it when he didn't want to go - so at the gate to the school, or leaving the yard on a hack, and I know that he threw some bucking fits under saddle as well. He was very recently backed when he came to us too - only 4 weeks or so - and my boss's GF, who was to be his rider, was aghast that such a newly backed horse could have such a startling repertoire of evasion techniques! And unlike our 4 year old, this one would rear numerous times in succession and go up so high you thought he would go over! Now, obviously I don't know exactly how this horse was started, but I can only imagine that whoever it was didn't do a very good job and that is why this horse behaved like this. On the plus side, 3-4 months later he is now a reformed character and unrecognizable as the devil horse who arrived, so you can undo the damage. But IMO it is not normal for a horse to be like IF they are backed well.

Thanks. Good grief, that horse you describe must have taken a rider with balls of steel to push him through it. Not something I would want to contend with. But it does show that it can be done.

 

[HashRouge]

Thanks. Good grief, that horse you describe must have taken a rider with balls of steel to push him through it. Not something I would want to contend with. But it does show that it can be done.

Yes, I think I sort of forgot that part! She is super-talented, although I think even she was a bit worried at the beginning!

 

[Kezzabell2]

Oh no, that is so young to be having such problems. Not fair at all! The reason I got a youngster was after having to retire my other gelding at only 12 years old, and throwing lots of money at trying to fix him, I wanted an unspoilt youngster. But it's not always guaranteed, as your boy proves. I hope that you manage to solve his problems. It's such a rollercoaster.

I know I'm totally gutted! I bought him as a 18 month old, and the same as you, I wanted something unspoilt! AFter having my mare who was ruined by her previous owner and spending the first 5 yrs not really enjoying riding her! but after that she was a delight, so I wanted something similar!

I think his problems is that he grow too quickly, he was to make 15'2 and he's a good 16'1, if not bigger!! and like a massive connemara, so very well built!

the most gutting thing of all is that, you dont know what your baby is going to become, so I could have got on and he might not have felt right! but I got on and I new this was my horse of a life time, he just felt so perfect, so safe, looked after me totally, so he is going to get all the money in the world chucked at him to make him right! its already creeping up to £6k in a year!! so hopefully the new shoes will be a god send!

but he will be with me even if he needs retiring! not sure what I will do then! but hopefully it won't come to that and he will get better and be that amazing horse I've waited my whole life for

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Ip

I broke my old mare in nearly 20 years ago and she was absolutely good as gold from start to finish. I never had a problem with bucking or rearing apart from once when she was six and got a bit excited. But she never had me off. My youngster, who's four has been more challenging, especially on the lunge where we have had quite a few teething problems but he's being good now and I will soon be ready to lean over him. My question is, for those who break in a lot of horses, how common is it to have a horse buck or rear with you after backing? The reason I ask is that I may be taking on a just backed three year old who I went to see yesterday. He was doing really well but then bucked several times with his owner and then went right up, and she came off. Apparently never done this before, but owner is used to breaking in youngsters and said it is common to get these kinds of problems and it is probably a one off. I'm not so sure, or was I just very lucky with my old mare? I did back four other horses before her whilst working at a stud, and only one of them had a lasting problem with bucking. I didn't mind dealing with it then as I was very young and brave, but I am much older now and don't want to take on too much trouble.

My boy bucked/ bronked through breaking in, and will still bronk when exited, or when his back is majorly (if that is the spelling) out. I have a buckstop which stops him, but i think the company no longer trades. (Stop that horse)

It depends on whether it is pain related or exitement. This horse your thinking of buying



Mine was broken in with a western saddle, and left loose in the school to get used to it.


Rearing is another ball game, and from experiance I would take what they say about him never doing it , with a pinch of salt.

My new mare from 6 weeks ago , they said never spooks but she shyed a few times down to the arena area and did a major spook across the road before i went on hol. If your experianced as i am and knew you can cure it like the door kicking i am curing, then fair enugh but if it is not then maybe be very careful if you want to buy as maybe it is not the horse for you

 

[Cortez]

Properly broken horses should not be bucking or rearing. I'd say about 2% of the horses I have broken (lots; I used to break for a living and had a stud farm too, so would do at least 20 three year olds a year) have ever bucked, either with first tack or under the rider. And I've never had one I've broken rear - had to deal with those who'd learned to rear somewhere else 'tho.

 

[Speedyfluff]

Properly broken horses should not be bucking or rearing. I'd say about 2% of the horses I have broken (lots; I used to break for a living and had a stud farm too, so would do at least 20 three year olds a year) have ever bucked, either with first tack or under the rider. And I've never had one I've broken rear - had to deal with those who'd learned to rear somewhere else 'tho.

That's very reassuring. Thank you. The key is obviously to break them well and confidently, and don't rush them.

 

[siennamum]

I've only broken a dozen or so horses but never had one buck. I've had a bit of back humping which ignored, settles when you are in the early stages.

I think English style breaking involves plenty of desensitisation, unlike an earlier poster, surely that is what we are doing when we long rein, & in general handling when the horse is acclimatised to noise & jumping up & down etc.

Some horses like to rear in my experience, & may do it whatever their upbringing. I would be really worried if a horse reared with purpose when being broken. I have one which reared when being broken in by the breeder & came to me to be restarted. Although he is a great horse & easy in most ways now, he will resort to rearing if really pushed to do something he doesn't want. I wouldn't want another.

If you are considering a horse which has reared when being broken OP, I would walk away.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Thanks. That is what I have found in my very limited experience backing. Once I saw him go up I decided not to get on him. But the comment from his owner that it was common in just backed horses got me worrying my own boy would do it, and maybe I'm getting too old to be backing horses. I was feeling so happy with him until this put doubts in my head.

Some vendors will tell you anything they think they can get away with/you will believe. I had one not so long ago tell me that the very obvious dish in the 3 yr old AppyX, I went to view, was an optical illusion. She must have thought I came down in the last shower! I wouldn't have bought it anyway as it also had an obvious umbilical hernia, which she had conveniently forgotten to mention over the phone. Good jb it was only a 30 min drive away!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Properly broken horses should not be bucking or rearing. I'd say about 2% of the horses I have broken (lots; I used to break for a living and had a stud farm too, so would do at least 20 three year olds a year) have ever bucked, either with first tack or under the rider. And I've never had one I've broken rear - had to deal with those who'd learned to rear somewhere else 'tho.

rubbish, a horses spirit is nothing to do with, who broke him in, wether he broncs or not or bucks. Wild mustang bronc, they are trained by pros. Your saying to us that if any of us have horses who buck that we are at fault! Wrong!. So it is nothing to do with being proffessional or not. Horses are individual and some bronc some rear, they are of cause their own right individual.


I have broken in many many horses and my boy is the only horse who bucks, their natural preditor jumps on the back so they will of cause to their best to remove the threat.

 

[Cortez]

I did say 2% will buck, no matter how "professional" you are.........NOTHING with horses is 100%.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Coming late to this but on the subject of rearing - i have had ONE horse rear in the early stages of backing (out of hundreds.) She did it the first time she was led forward and it was so bad that her 'dummy rider' was first to go and she fell herself.

She is now at the walk, trot & canter stage - and she has never reared since. It's taken a long while to get her to her current stage - as she goes with her head stuck out to the right and a teensy unlevelness. We're sure this is a result of her rear - and we haven't been able to identify just what causes it - so she's had time off in conjunctin with other 'treatments'. Two good equine vets and an excelent equine physio have failed her - and she has her last attempt at a physio on Monday - the physio coming I found (on FB) and found out by chance - and in the course of a conversation - that her own horse had suffered from what sounds EXACTLY like Canda's! She found the 'cause' and cured it, so .....

If she can't find the cause, then Canda will have to become a broodmare (she's a Class 1 ID - and very compact at 15.2) so although the market for brood mares is MUCH worse than the market for nice riding horses, there comes a point ..... I'd keep her happily as a brood mare myself if I didn't have too many brood mares.

 

[YorksG]

rubbish, a horses spirit is nothing to do with, who broke him in, wether he broncs or not or bucks. Wild mustang bronc, they are trained by pros. Your saying to us that if any of us have horses who buck that we are at fault! Wrong!. So it is nothing to do with being proffessional or not. Horses are individual and some bronc some rear, they are of cause their own right individual.


I have broken in many many horses and my boy is the only horse who bucks, their natural preditor jumps on the back so they will of cause to their best to remove the threat.

Surely the horse will be sufficiently desensetised to weight on its back before it gets to the stage where it may think that the rider is a predator! If it does think that, then something has gone wrong with the process IMO

 

[be positive]

Surely the horse will be sufficiently desensetised to weight on its back before it gets to the stage where it may think that the rider is a predator! If it does think that, then something has gone wrong with the process IMO

I agree, I think the desensitising and trust are the most important part of the preparatory work before backing, wild mustangs will have none of this done it is a case of truss them up and jump on board if you stay on they are broken if not try again!!
I hope our well handled young horses are sufficiently confident that they trust us before we get on, there are always a few that will have a buck but as cortez said it is the minority not the majority if they are correctly started and have no physical issues.