Those with Andys, Do you shoe or not????

cptrayes said:
Amaranta when I took on mine, his owner told me that when he was in Portugal for several years he lived in all the time and had very upright, "typically Iberian" feet. When she brought him to the UK his heels got much lower and his toe longer. (too much, but that's a different story).

He would have been a Lusitano then not an Andy, but yes, they are still Iberian, interesting that he had typically upright boxy feet and had navicular, there is a definite connection there. Many people try and correct the feet when they import spanish horses, this is the very worst thing you could do and could well have been a contributing factor


The site you have pointed to makes a reference to the practice of stabling a lot leading to upright feet. Would you agree with that?

I would certainly not disagree, but then you still see these feet in the mares, who live out 24/7 as do the fillies, the colts live out until they are 3

It would be interesting to know how much you turn yours out and whether you think it helps them have better shape feet, in addition to having bred them for better shaped feet over a number of years?

My broodies live out 24/7 and only come in to foal, the ridden horses are out for 8 hours a day unless working when they are out for a shorter time

The single example I've had would suggest that some of them will produce upright feet if they don't get enough movement even though they are capable of producing good feet if they do. Do you think that's a possibility?
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It does sound feasable, but the fact is that even horses who are out continuously can still have these tin cans on the end of their legs. I have one imported mare who is very slightly upright, however, none of her foals have been. I have another imported mare who was completely the other way and in fact looked flat footed until my farrier sorted her out, it is interesting that she was not born in Andalucia but nearer the Portugese border. I don't think these feet are as prevalent in the Lusitano as they are in the Andalusian even though the Luso derives from the Andy, but the Portugese have been breeding the straighter moving animals for longer so perhaps that has something to do with it
 
Oberon said:
I DID try to warn you :p

What just struck me when Pete Ramey was observing mustangs and their hooves in 2007, he saw an older stallion with really uncharacteristic high heels.

Bearing in mind the mindset of 'wild horse trimming' had previously (and still is with some trimming organisations) been focused on Short Toe, Low Heel - and yet here was this vibrant, healthy, stallion with heels you could see from a mile away.

It was natural for him to be that way.

I wonder if he could have been a tin can candidate?

The take home message for me was to never assume anything with hoof form because there's always an awkward nag to prove us all wrong :p
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That is really interesting Oberon, did you know that Mustangs evolved from the Spanish Horse?
 
He is a Lusitano/PRE cross, but can't Lusitano's live in Portugal :D? She took him there so he was where she wanted to be when she was on holiday :)
 
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Amaranta said:
It is really, except with a club foot it is only one foot that is affected
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What I was going to say too. If you have a matching pair, it's tin can feet. If one does not match, it's a club foot. One would seem to be more likely to be genetic in origin, if both are the same, and the other sometimes happens with horses with one leg longer than the other and sometimes as a result of an accident and sometimes no-one knows.

I wouldn't describe the foot on Lucy's blog as "tin can" because it widens noticeably towards the bottom, just the way tins of bean don't :) I think it's just an overgrown foot, and came right quickly. True tins are horribly difficult to get rid of, in my experience, which is quite limited in that respect.
 
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Originally Posted by Amaranta

He would have been a Lusitano then not an Andy, but yes, they are still Iberian, interesting that he had typically upright boxy feet and had navicular, there is a definite connection there. Many people try and correct the feet when they import spanish horses, this is the very worst thing you could do and could well have been a contributing factor
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The English farrier did blame himself for correcting them. But the feet he has now are absolutely normal, so neither the tins nor the long toe/flat heel were actually how his feet wanted to be.


Thanks for the other info, interesting to know how you keep them. Movement is essential, I think, and you seem to feel the same. It's possibl maybe that your imported mare had insufficient movement as a foal and that she doesn't pas the feet on because it's a developmental issue and not a genetic one?
 
cptrayes said:
Thanks for the other info, interesting to know how you keep them. Movement is essential, I think, and you seem to feel the same. It's possibl maybe that your imported mare had insufficient movement as a foal and that she doesn't pas the feet on because it's a developmental issue and not a genetic one?
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Unlikely tbf as she lived out from a foal, she does not have 'tin can feet' just slightly more upright than any of my others. I have always put her to a stallion with 'normal' feet which is probably why it has not passed on.
 
I've had my PRE for almost 7 years and he has the hardest, best feet I have ever come across, he was shod for the first couple, then went unshod for a couple of years but I recently had fronts put back on him due to the amount of hacking we were doing which was wearing his feet too much. The majority of all the other Andys I have come across tend to have good hard feet too.

I would just put shoes back on if your horse is telling you she needs them.

I dont believe you can make a horse go "barefoot" by changing its diet and filling it full of supplements.

Listen to what your horse is telling you, she knows best!!!!!!!
 
Tamba said:
#That is so very helpful.. she is on restricted grazing at the minute with just a pile of haylage morning and night!

STOP giving her haylage immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Far too much sugar. Very very few Andys can tolerate sugar in their diet. There will be one or two around who buck this trend but not many.

Please please stop the haylage!
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Andalusianlover1 said:
I dont believe you can {get a horse to} go "barefoot" by changing its diet and filling it full of supplements.
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AL1, did you try? Additional magnesium (now used for human diabetes as well) and yeast are anecdotally very helpful. And for horses high in iron/manganese and/or low in copper, copper (or copper and zinc) also seems to be very beneficial. Restriction in carbs is no. 1 though, as you already pointed out.

Also I'd be interested to know if your horse was actually sore or if you shod because the feet were "too short". Barefoot feet can look terribly short, depending on the horse.
 
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My PRE is barefoot has been for over a year on fronts & never been shod behind, We never normally have a problem with footyness due to his work load & age.
However i did notice he was extremely footy over hardcore at a show a few weeks ago.
TBH though i would of expected a shod foot to of struggled with those stones they where vicious.
But I upped his Magnesium & started soaking his hay now he's back to rock crunching hooves again.

I will say my PRE can be a good doer but loses weight easily, he's at the perfect weight atm if he loses any more he will be under weight. I also need him to have enough energy for work & growth he's 5yo.
I didnt want to soak hay but had to as he is reacting to the grass. He's feed on Pure feeds & Topspec Cool Condition cubes. Oh & he also has odd feet lol.

If you are struggling with footyness & it's getting to much shoe there is no point in having a horse uncomfortable & it's no fun for the horse.

I however would rarther manage my horses in a way to prevent the footyness but i do live in the real world & appreciate this isnt always possible.

Good luck with your horse.
 
right, I took som,e pics today, not brilliant, as her feet have wet sand on them

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cptrayes said:
AL1, did you try? Additional magnesium (now used for human diabetes as well) and yeast are anecdotally very helpful. And for horses high in iron/manganese and/or low in copper, copper (or copper and zinc) also seems to be very beneficial. Restriction in carbs is no. 1 though, as you already pointed out.

Also I'd be interested to know if your horse was actually sore or if you shod because the feet were "too short". Barefoot feet can look terribly short, depending on the horse.
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I dont feed him supplements, partly due to the cost and the fact that he doesnt need them, he's very happy, healthy and fit!

I shod him in front because they were becoming far too short. He had been unshod for a couple of years but in the last couple of months his hacking and road workload has increased and I just had this feeling that all wasnt normal, maybe he was stepping a bit short or something, he certainly wasnt lame but I just didnt feel comfortable with things as they were. With fronts on now he's back to normal. he's a busy boy, SJ, HT, Eventing, 15 mile pleasure (not) rides, think he needed them back on!
 
My PRE's are all unshod, including my stallion who is in work. My farrier says he has very good hard feet.
I don't feed haylage either, as it makes some of mine spooky, it's expensive and you have to feed 1.5 times more of it than hay to get the same amount of roughage. I'm not convinced it's at all suitable for Spanish horses, because it's so different from the diet that they have been bred to live on. It also puts much more weight on than hay.

Of course vitamins and minerals etc. are going to effect the density and hardness of the hoof. It is made by the body, which cannot function properly without the correct nutrients. Just haylage and grass are very unlikely to provide all the horse requires to keep it's body (and mind) healthy.
 
Andalusianlover1 said:
I dont feed him supplements, partly due to the cost and the fact that he doesnt need them, he's very happy, healthy and fit!

I shod him in front because they were becoming far too short. He had been unshod for a couple of years but in the last couple of months his hacking and road workload has increased and I just had this feeling that all wasnt normal, maybe he was stepping a bit short or something, he certainly wasnt lame but I just didnt feel comfortable with things as they were. With fronts on now he's back to normal. he's a busy boy, SJ, HT, Eventing, 15 mile pleasure (not) rides, think he needed them back on!
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I don't understand your first statement, sorry :( I'm not sure how you can say so confidently that he does not need supplements if he was unable to grow a foot to allow him to do as much roadwork as plenty of other horses can manage.

"Supplements" that I use are mostly to put right deficiencies, not to add anything. My horses were shiny and healthy too, you would never have believed that they were lacking anything, health-wise. But the difference in the concavity of their feet (especially one of them) when I put right their copper shortage was marked.

I also have a horse whose feet do not adjust to extra work in two months, I would need to increase the work more slowly than that, or boot some of the time for the first three months.

Thankyou for answering me. I'm glad shoes are working for you and him.
 
Andalusianlover1 said:
Tamba said:
#That is so very helpful.. she is on restricted grazing at the minute with just a pile of haylage morning and night!

STOP giving her haylage immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Far too much sugar. Very very few Andys can tolerate sugar in their diet. There will be one or two around who buck this trend but not many.

Please please stop the haylage!
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There is haylage and haylage and hay and hay. A recent analysis that a friend had done of some hay came back as over 30% soluble carbohydrates - a nightmare! Rockley Farm, on the other hand, feeds nothing but haylage, home grown off established meadows. I also feed meadow haylage, and have fed it with no problems to laminitic risk horses. It is ryegrass haylage, heavily fertilised and resown on a 3, 4 or 5 year cycle which is a nightmare, but so is hay made of the same grass. Especially when either are cut during late afternoon on a sunny day.
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Have to agree about haylage. It's all about what is being baled. The stuff our farmer feeds his cows, off fertlised rye leys would definitely blow the head off any horse, but for beef cattle suckling calves, it is perfect.

A friend gets hers baled from meadow herby ley and is very leafy and not steamy at all.

Then again, unless tested.... How do you know??
 
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Just as a footnote!!! NAF have brought out a haylage balancer which contains vitamins and minerals, amongst other things, 'to rebalance the nutritional shortfall of the high fibre diet ensuring good health and vitality'. http://www.naf-equine.eu/uk//products/productDetail.jsp?detail_id=haylage-balancer
Interestingly, it contains Magnesium Oxide, which, if lacking in the diet, causes excessive spooking.
 
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