Thoughts/ ideas? Are some horses just unrideable?

[Timelyattraction]

Hi, bit of a long story but i bought an unbroken 4yo last summer in view of backing and producing her myself as i did with my previous horse.
anyway, said horse is very sweet and gentle to handle on the ground. The first time the roller went on and she moved forward this ended up in a full on rodeo act. She eventually accepted this. This first time the saddle went on and she moved the same thing happened. It still does sometime to this day (almost 10 months on). I spent weeks leaning over her which she took well, sat on her and had a walk round the yard which also went well. The third time i got on her ended up in one of her bronking episodes with me on the floor. Fast forward and she goes away for 12 weeks to be professionally backed (she was very set back by the fall) and at the end of the 12 weeks she was finally able to get on and walk around the yard. Anyway the lady she went to thought there could be more to her behaviour so said to bring her home and get a vet work up rather than push on. So we did that and vet apart from scoping for some low grade ulcers vet found nothing (xrays taken were clean). Ulcers have now been treated and rescoped clear. So we come home and i continue with ground work (she is happy with flags and bags being waved over her). I have been leaning back over her while shes standing at the mountain block and she was happy with that. We then go to walk while being led and this results in another one of her episodes. Question is where do i go from here? I have a horsemanship professional coming out next week but apart from that i just dont know. I really think she just goes into fight or flight mode (hers being the fight option) and dont know how to overcome this. We are nearly a year on now and still cannot ride this horse. Any ideas welcome ??

 

[stangs]

Some horses are unrideable, but this is a very small number and typically due to neurological issues. Most ‘unrideable’ horses aren’t being trained in a way that fits their character imo.

I doubt your mare is unrideable. Rather, it sounds like she’s very sensitive/anxious naturally, or you pushed her too fast with putting the roller/saddle/etc on. Either way, she’s now got a negative association with being ridden, so is more inclined to escalate her behaviour from 0-100 rather than showing subtler signs of stress beforehand.

If I were you, I’d be looking to find a trainer who is very tuned into horses’ stress signs, and so who will work this mare at her own pace, making sure she’s comfortable with what’s happening. If that means it takes another year for her to be walking around happily with a rider on her back, so be it.

 

[Timelyattraction]

Some horses are unrideable, but this is a very small number and typically due to neurological issues. Most ‘unrideable’ horses aren’t being trained in a way that fits their character imo.

I doubt your mare is unrideable. Rather, it sounds like she’s very sensitive/anxious naturally, or you pushed her too fast with putting the roller/saddle/etc on. Either way, she’s now got a negative association with being ridden, so is more inclined to escalate her behaviour from 0-100 rather than showing subtler signs of stress beforehand.

If I were you, I’d be looking to find a trainer who is very tuned into horses’ stress signs, and so who will work this mare at her own pace, making sure she’s comfortable with what’s happening. If that means it takes another year for her to be walking around happily with a rider on her back, so be it.

Thank you, she is naturally quite anxious. She was very unsure even about putting a head collar on when she first came. I am trying to find someone who has experience with horses like her who can come to my yard to work with her as i cannot afford for her to be sent away again especially for the time she needs but i am struggling to find someone who will do it freelance.

 

[ycbm]

Can you say which bits were x rayed? If her neck wasn't done I'd get it done.

 

[Timelyattraction]

Can you say which bits were x rayed? If her neck wasn't done I'd get it done.

Back, stifles, hocks as vet said they would be the obvious to check

 

[Gloi]

Are you totally sure you bought an unbroken 4yo and not one that someone had previously tried and failed to break. I am very suspicious these days unless I know the breeder very well.

 

[Timelyattraction]

Are you totally sure you bought an unbroken 4yo and not one that someone had previously tried and failed to break. I am very suspicious these days unless I know the breeder very well.

I bought her direct from the breeder but who knows ?‍

 

[I'm Dun]

Some horses do panic in the way you describe, but when they are slowly worked through it its generally resolved. Shes fine sometimes and very reactive others, which means either you and the breaker didnt resolve the issue, or theres pain. Just because limited xrays were clean doesnt mean theres no issue. The fact she had ulcers is a strong indication that there is pain somewhere.

 

[Gloi]

I bought her direct from the breeder but who knows ?‍

At least coming from the breeder you can be more happy about her history. Especially if they normally sell them unbroken.

 

[bonny]

I have a Tb that I got from the breeder when he was three and is now in his 20s. He went from the farm where he was born to a breakers who handed him back as unrideable and then did the rounds at several other yards who all gave up on him.
The breeder then sent him to an ex jockey who just got on with riding him and although he found him very forward going didn’t have any problems. He’s been hot all his life and still is. He needs to be busy, we have never really schooled him but he’s a brilliant competition horse as long as you can be as brave as him.
With him it’s his personality and if you messed around trying to do everything quietly with him you would have got nowhere. Maybe your mare
is the same ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Can you say which bits were x rayed? If her neck wasn't done I'd get it done.

Was going to say check neck and poll I had a mare that would explode with any poll pressure due to an injury with a lot of scar tissue.

 

[Lyle]

Personally, I'd be looking for someone Horsemanship/more western style to start her. Good luck and keep us updated!

 

[Lois Lame]

OP, what was your gut feeling about the breeder? Someone who was superduper honest, or who could accidentally-on-purpose forget he or she had tried to break in the horse?

If you are convinced that the breeder made no attempt, maybe you pushed a little too fast.

(Please bear in mind I've never attempted to break a horse, though it was a wish I always had. Probably quite daft of me. I do hope you solve the problems or find someone who does.)

 

[ycbm]

Back, stifles, hocks as vet said they would be the obvious to check

They are, but there are also a lot of problems with necks and many vets seem not to think of it, possibly because it's not directly bearing the weight of the horse's body. I had to have one PTS at 9 for neck arthritis 2 years back and a friend claimed LOU the same year for a problem at one vertebra, C5, that was causing her even younger horse to explode into bucking fits. Since she's currently so bad she's unrideable, I'd do the neck too.

Having said that, the only 4 year old I've ever had who was unbreakable was going blind and terrified by it.
.

 

[TheMule]

I've bought 2 unbacked 4 yr olds that were exactly like that. 1 I know was genuinely untried, the other one I have my doubts over whether someone tried and messed it up as she was actually fine until leaning over.
Neither ended up having a ridden life- you could just about ride them but it was extremely stressful for all involve, they never quietly settled into normal ridden work. I suspect something physical with both as they were otherwise really sweet horses.

 

[ycbm]

Do be careful, TA. I've remembered a mare bred by a friend of mine. She was very tricky to back. She went to a Pro for bringing on as she was proving to much for two people who had a ton of experience riding at high levels on sharp horses. She was sensitive but fine, until she wasn't, and smashed the Pro's leg to pieces. She was sold with disclosure, but after she broke another person's arm she was PTS.

The answer to your question is unfortunately yes, some are unrideable.
.

 

[Illtellyoulater]

have you scanned her ovaries?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would certainly get a 2nd vet opinion, it sounds like a pain reaction to me.
What do you feed her on? I had a youngster whose behaviour got progressively more and more unpredictable, with intermittent bucking fits. (I was a lot younger and bouncier then) Eventually we found that she was reacting to her feed.

 

[TPO]

Is she insured?

Where are you at as in do you want to throw the kitchen sink at her to try and get a diagnosis? If uninsured are you in a position to do that? What your set up e.g.are you on livery, do you have a good support network of experienced people etc?

It's easy for people to throw ideas around on here, mainly suggesting things that they've experienced but aren't necessarily relevant to your horse, and some things might stick while others are wide of the mark. It can also be a really long and hard slog rehabbing a horse with certain issues. Your best bet is to speak with people who know you and your horse in real life.

For example on here was a post about extreme ridden behaviour and the general consensus was that the horse was dangerous and pts was touted a lot by some. Transpired it was a horse who had been through a lot of changes, a very novice owner/rider and some not very knowledgeable people touting themselves to the poster (in real life, not on here). Now it's a brilliant partnership with happy horse and owner/rider.

So really I think you need to assess your finacial, time and "want" position then speak to you vet about possible other options. Then if horse still has a clean bill of health perhaps some "alternative" trainers like Joe Midgely/Guy Robertson/Jason Webb/Richard Maxwell types. A poster on here sent their quirky* dressage horse to Alan Payne, a western trainer, for starting and riding away so out of the box thinking can help.

*no offence meant by that term.

Also in answer to your question yes I think there are some horses who cant/shouldn't be ridden and as The Mule said the safety of all parties should trump carrying on because someone feels like they can or should.

 

[Timelyattraction]

I would certainly get a 2nd vet opinion, it sounds like a pain reaction to me.
What do you feed her on? I had a youngster whose behaviour got progressively more and more unpredictable, with intermittent bucking fits. (I was a lot younger and bouncier then) Eventually we found that she was reacting to her feed.

She is on pink mash and thunderbrooks chaff with acid ease supplement

 

[Highmileagecob]

What are your options if you decide she is unrideable? Is she brood mare material?

 

[Bellaboo18]

My question would be what was the reason for the ulcers?

 

[stangs]

Is she brood mare material?

I don’t think a horse with either that reactive a temperament or with an unknown physical issue causing high levels of pain should ever be bred, regardless of the quality of her lines.

 

[TheMule]

I don’t think a horse with either that reactive a temperament or with an unknown physical issue causing high levels of pain should ever be bred, regardless of the quality of her lines.

I agree, but she could be an ET recipient if vet agrees

 

[vhf]

I do know of a similar sounding mare who was eventually won over being being led from another horse, rider on, for weeks and weeks. Literally led to mounting block by someone on the other horse, rider boarded, off they went hacking on lead rein, then introduced to schoolwork on lead rein. They had reached the 'must be unrideable' point and it was a last chance scenario, but it worked and she went on to a successful competition career. This was an experienced set-up with a horse pleasant and talented enough to persevere with, whose entire history was known from birth.

Like the above posters though, I think when they are this challenging they are normally victims of a previous disastrous backing attempt or have a medical explanation.

I would want to work out whether the ulcers were the result of being unsettled away at the backing yard (and so a red herring, in a way) or from something else.

 

[ycbm]

For example on here was a post about extreme ridden behaviour and the general consensus was that the horse was dangerous and pts was touted a lot by some. Transpired it was a horse who had been through a lot of changes, a very novice owner/rider and some not very knowledgeable people touting themselves to the poster (in real life, not on here). Now it's a brilliant partnership with happy horse and owner/rider.

It was a bit more than that, though, TPO. It took over a year including retirement from riding and an in hand rehab for kissing spines and treatment for ulcers for him to come right. I think the big problem with this thread's horse is that ulcers aside, nobody can find anything causing the issues which can be rehabbed in the hope it will moderate the behaviour.

. A poster on here sent their quirky* dressage horse to Alan Payne, a western trainer, for starting and riding away so out of the box thinking can help.

I know of one the same where, through absolutely no fault of the poor owner, the backing sadly didn't result in the horse staying rideable. And a neighbour of mine also had a horse which was backed by him, or someone very similar. That horse could never be ridden by anyone else and was eventually kept as a pet after training a number of astronauts.

I know they can work seeming miracles, and I'm definitely not trying to dismiss the suggestion completely, just to add a slight note of caution that what these real expert backers can achieve can't always be continued with the horse back home, for various reasons.


As a success story, I recall that the 70's international show jumper Pennwood Forge Mill was backed in a stable by placing the rider on him suspended from a pulley in the ceiling ?
.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

She is on pink mash and thunderbrooks chaff with acid ease supplement

I don't have experience of feeding any of those but if anything contains alfalfa, I would stop it immediately - many horses react badly to alfalfa. Soya is another common ingredient that many horses react to and quite a few react badly to linseed, although any ingredient can cause a reaction in individual horses. Could you strip her diet back to just grass/hay for a month, to see what happens?

 

[Timelyattraction]

She was on g

I don't have experience of feeding any of those but if anything contains alfalfa, I would stop it immediately - many horses react badly to alfalfa. Soya is another common ingredient that many horses react to and quite a few react badly to linseed, although any ingredient can cause a reaction in individual horses. Could you strip her diet back to just grass/hay for a month, to see what happens?

she was on just grass and hay in the summer when i started backing her with sane reactions so probably feed related?

 

[Timelyattraction]

She was on g

she was on just grass and hay in the summer when i started backing her with sane reactions so probably feed related?

Same*

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Did you mean probably not feed related?
In that case, definitely a 2nd vet opinion would be my next step.