Thoughts on “traditional” dog training vs positive reinforcement only...?

[numptynovice]

My older retired greyhound (4.5) has increasingly been reacting to certain dogs out on walks and I’ve been reading up on various techniques online. Then I’ve spoke to a behaviourist recommended by the rescue and the advice is very different.

Online advice is all around positive reinforcement only - feeding the dog treats whenever you see another dog and avoiding “triggering” the dog wherever possible by crossing the road, turning back etc when you see another dog. If your dog does bark at another dog it has been triggered and you need to avoid walking it for a few days to allow it to calm down (I’ve ignored this as it seems way OTT).

The trainers are more “traditional” and have suggested the dog is confused as to what we’re asking of her. They recommended that we focus on getting the dog walking nicely in “exercise” mode (I.e at heel) and correct any barking/growling with a short pull on the lead and NO.

We’re going to try the trainer’s advice and go to a few classes as well as the other approach has just made her worse.

This has made me think a bit about “new” vs “traditional” approaches and I’m interested in what more experienced dog people think.

It’s seems to me the positive reinforcement only might work for very experienced and patient people with excellent timing, but likely to go wrong for less experienced owners who get the timing wrong etc and just contribute to more anxiety. And I don’t really understand how you could deal with behaviour like counter surfing without some sort of intervention - my dogs get told NO all the time in the house but seems like with positive reinforcement you could never tell them off! It’s very confusing for a new dog owner....

 

[{97702}]

I’m surprised a greyhound is reacting to other dogs like this to be honest - was there an incident that triggered this? I’m definitely not suggesting that you’ve done anything wrong by the way, I’m just interested 😊

My lurcher reacts to other dogs and gets a sharp ‘no’ whenever she does it - whatever they say about being anthropomorphic, she knows when she has done wrong so that is enough for her

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I like the command 'NO!'. It can be very effective. You can always reward good behaviour after the event. IME clever dogs will indicate that they have noticed a dog across the road, if they know that there will be treat as a bribe to get them past, which is what your description of PR sounds like. I wouldn't have called that PR actually, it sounds like bribery to me.

 

[dogatemysalad]

My collie used to get worried and bark when passing other dogs who are on a lead. What worked for her, was to make her sit and focus on me. Immediately as she stopped barking, we'd move on. She realised that I didn't like her helpful barks.

 

[numptynovice]

I’m surprised a greyhound is reacting to other dogs like this to be honest - was there an incident that triggered this? I’m definitely not suggesting that you’ve done anything wrong by the way, I’m just interested 😊

My lurcher reacts to other dogs and gets a sharp ‘no’ whenever she does it - whatever they say about being anthropomorphic, she knows when she has done wrong so that is enough for her

There wasn’t a specific incident, although we’ve had a few run ins with off lead dogs either surrounding us or lunging at her. she started off walking mostly really nicely, with the odd growl but it escalated after we got dog number 2. Now she can bark and growl at most dogs.

I’d started moving them out of the way and shortening the lead, treating etc to allow dogs past, which seems to have made things worse. I’ve then muzzled and walked with a relaxed lead which has improved her behaviour a lot, but she still reacts if the other dog is reactive - she spots them a mile off and starts first.

I think the key is to get her walking nicely on a loose lead, stay relaxed and loose if I see another dog, but check her if she misbehaves - but according to the reactive dog websites it seems like I should be hiding when I see another dog, treating her and not telling her off...

I probably have done something wrong to be honest, I suffer from anxiety and can be a bit over analytical and confuse myself by reading contradicting advice, which is why we’ve got the behaviourist in! I’m sure with an experienced dog person she’d be fine.

 

[numptynovice]

I like the command 'NO!'. It can be very effective. You can always reward good behaviour after the event. IME clever dogs will indicate that they have noticed a dog across the road, if they know that there will be treat as a bribe to get them past, which is what your description of PR sounds like. I wouldn't have called that PR actually, it sounds like bribery to me.

I’m probably doing it wrong! But the trainer said I’m basically rewarding her for spotting the dog, just as you say, when I actually want her to ignore the dog.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

there are ways of training a dog to be dog neutral that dont include punishment but probably can't be categorised as R+ (ie they reward neutral behavior) but also may not be of use to a reactive dog (as opposed to one that wants to play with everything.)
With a very reactive dog, telling them off wont work either, they are reacting from fear (mostly)-the idea with the R+ method is to not further inbed the behaviour by allowing it to happen-but then you also need a progressive plan of desensitisation which may/may not work at worst or take a very long time at best.

R+ is a very powerful technique with prey animals, I remain to be convinced by it for something as opportunistic as a dog. I really dislike some of the more traditional dog training methods-I tend to pick and choose a bit remembering that your average dog is actually akin to a toddler-training them using what they really love isnt bribery and it also doesnt need to be food (unless it works really well).

I would choose one and stick with it-dogs are better with consistancy but bear in mind you are allowed to shop around to find one that suits you. Don't be hard on yourself, a reactive dog is not necessarily easy for any dog owner.

 

[{97702}]

To be honest I think she would be the same with absolutely everyone NN, so please don’t feel you are doing the wrong thing 😊 My lurcher is an absolute sweetie, and if she were to approach another dog when she was off the lead she would be lovely - but because she is on the lead she turns into a horribly aggressive-sounding shouting thing ☹️

Your approach sounds fine to me, I think in your position I would keep doing that and try to ignore what the websites say

 

[numptynovice]

there are ways of training a dog to be dog neutral that dont include punishment but probably can't be categorised as R+ (ie they reward neutral behavior) but also may not be of use to a reactive dog (as opposed to one that wants to play with everything.)
With a very reactive dog, telling them off wont work either, they are reacting from fear (mostly)-the idea with the R+ method is to not further inbed the behaviour by allowing it to happen-but then you also need a progressive plan of desensitisation which may/may not work at worst or take a very long time at best.

R+ is a very powerful technique with prey animals, I remain to be convinced by it for something as opportunistic as a dog. I really dislike some of the more traditional dog training methods-I tend to pick and choose a bit remembering that your average dog is actually akin to a toddler-training them using what they really love isnt bribery and it also doesnt need to be food (unless it works really well).

I would choose one and stick with it-dogs are better with consistancy but bear in mind you are allowed to shop around to find one that suits you. Don't be hard on yourself, a reactive dog is not necessarily easy for any dog owner.

Thanks for the thoughts. I suspect it’s the same as when I had a baby - you need to pick out what works for you/the dog and not become too attached to any particular “method”. I’ve definitely seen an immediate improvement since relaxing the lead and muzzling - I’m really trying to project confidence so she doesn’t feel there’s a problem - so hopefully we’ll get there.

We met lots of dogs yesterday (off lead that approached us) and she was good as gold. But then did have a reaction to another reactive dog and a bulldog. So I don’t think she’s highly reactive or afraid. We’ll try this trainer’s approach which is to work on the basics and correct unwanted behaviour when it occurs - but I certainly won’t do anything harsh, a sharp no and quick pull will be the limit.

 

[numptynovice]

To be honest I think she would be the same with absolutely everyone NN, so please don’t feel you are doing the wrong thing 😊 My lurcher is an absolute sweetie, and if she were to approach another dog when she was off the lead she would be lovely - but because she is on the lead she turns into a horribly aggressive-sounding shouting thing ☹️

Your approach sounds fine to me, I think in your position I would keep doing that and try to ignore what the websites say

Thanks Levrier, I appreciate that. Your lurcher sounds similar, it’s stressful isn’t it!

I have promised my husband to stay off the websites 😁

 

[Moon River]

I'd be really worried about someone working as a behaviourist (was it definitely an actual behaviourist rather than "just" a trainer?) who doesn't understand what classical conditioning is

 

[Chiffy]

Positive reinforcement is not bribing them away with a treat, it’s ignoring bad behaviour by distracting to doing something you want them to do and then rewarding that behaviour.
When training, I use it as much as possible but I am certainly not one of these people who never says No to their dog.
Dogs can learn what behaviours are unacceptable. Sometimes a short sharp rebuke , use No if you like but always follow it up with a Good dog if they respond and show them what they should be doing.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Correcting a dog when they are already gobbing off is counter-productive and adds stress to an already stressful situation, it's too late. You need to engage the dog/break the fixation with whatever method you so choose while they are still zoning out/thinking about it.
A website cannot see the dog or know what is motivating the behaviour (neither can we, obviously) which is why it is best to tailor any sort of training to the dog itself.

There's nothing new under the sun in dog training, dogs learn through either operant (dog makes a behaviour and there is a response, either positive or negative) or classical conditioning (dog makes a link between two previously unrelated stimuli). Corrections, pressure and release, exist in nature, a dog cannot know what it is we want and do not want unless we find a way to show them.

Dogs only behave in a way that they believe improves their position or makes their life easier. We all just have to figure out what floats our dogs boat. What you offer has to be of higher value or of worse consequence than what the dog wants to do and you have to engage with your dog and be more important than/provide something better than all the other stuff.

 

[numptynovice]

I'd be really worried about someone working as a behaviourist (was it definitely an actual behaviourist rather than "just" a trainer?) who doesn't understand what classical conditioning is

Not sure, they were recommended to us by the rescue, who have been very good.

 

[Clodagh]

Everything has been said, really, but as you have dealt with a toddler you will be fine! Remember it can be 6 steps forward and 8 back but as long as you are heading in the right direction it's all good.
I never hit or scruff my dogs, but they do get a growl or a sharp no if the situation demands it. I try to be nice when I can.

 

[numptynovice]

Everything has been said, really, but as you have dealt with a toddler you will be fine! Remember it can be 6 steps forward and 8 back but as long as you are heading in the right direction it's all good.
I never hit or scruff my dogs, but they do get a growl or a sharp no if the situation demands it. I try to be nice when I can.

Ha I’ve dealt with two toddlers. The dogs are better behaved than the kids.

What confused me was not so much the positive reinforcement per se (because obviously you give lots of praise/treats when they get it right, that makes perfect sense) but the concept you can ONLY do positive reinforcement - I.e. never say no.

I’d NEVER hit or hurt the dogs, but for example I will gently take their collars if they’re getting too excited and hold them (they calm down instantly) and I definitely say NO. Sounds like most people on here are the same.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Here is a cached version of one of my favourite articles, I will not apologise for sharing it a gazillion times!

https://web.archive.org/web/2018101...g/2016/06/07/the-punishment-of-positive-only/

 

[Clodagh]

Here is a cached version of one of my favourite articles, I will not apologise for sharing it a gazillion times!

https://web.archive.org/web/2018101...g/2016/06/07/the-punishment-of-positive-only/

I read that before when you put it on, such an excellent piece.

 

[{97702}]

Oh good grief I’m so glad I am old school - operant and classical conditioning??!! Sorry, to me a dog is a dog and I get fed up of people who over analyse everything and assign names to stuff that is generally common sense.

Dog does something wrong - say ‘no’ to indicate behaviour is not required

Dog does something right - say ‘good boy/girl’, give a treat or a light pat/stroke/ruffle on the top of the head, whatever the dog likes. This indicates behaviour is a desired one.

It ain’t rocket science and there is never a need for a ‘behaviourist’ as far as I’m concerned

 

[CorvusCorax]

Some behaviourists are not very good dog trainers, and vice versa the science is very helpful in that we now know 'how' dogs learn, but if you don't have the feeling to manipulate it practically, then it's useless.

 

[numptynovice]

Here is a cached version of one of my favourite articles, I will not apologise for sharing it a gazillion times!

https://web.archive.org/web/2018101...g/2016/06/07/the-punishment-of-positive-only/

I think that’s what I was trying to say at the start!

 

[paisley]

As a brief side note, I noticed that mine has a quick look at me when he sees another dog, possibly to gauge my reaction? From that, we have the phrase 'not your business' if its to be ignored.
I guess its the same as getting them to sit and ignore, but possibly the sneaky peek at us might be a sight hound thing?

 

[numptynovice]

As a brief side note, I noticed that mine has a quick look at me when he sees another dog, possibly to gauge my reaction? From that, we have the phrase 'not your business' if its to be ignored.
I guess its the same as getting them to sit and ignore, but possibly the sneaky peek at us might be a sight hound thing?

I get the sneaky peek when there’s something scary on telly. If I say it’s ok, straight back to sleep.

 

[BBP]

Oh good grief I’m so glad I am old school - operant and classical conditioning??!! Sorry, to me a dog is a dog and I get fed up of people who over analyse everything and assign names to stuff that is generally common sense.

Dog does something wrong - say ‘no’ to indicate behaviour is not required

Dog does something right - say ‘good boy/girl’, give a treat or a light pat/stroke/ruffle on the top of the head, whatever the dog likes. This indicates behaviour is a desired one.

It ain’t rocket science and there is never a need for a ‘behaviourist’ as far as I’m concerned

What’s wrong with getting a behaviourist to help? In the same way you might get someone that understands horse behaviour to help you train your horse? I wasn’t born knowing how to train my dog to be the perfect citizen but does that mean I shouldn’t have a dog, or does it mean I get a dog but then invest in training to help me understand how they think? To be honest the behaviourist I had out mostly taught me about my own behaviour and how it was reflected in my dog. It may have seemed obvious to those on the outside but I needed someone to give me that moment of clarity.

I suppose what I mean is: dog does something undesirable, I say no to indicate it’s undesirable, dog keeps going or escalates it’s undesirable behaviour. Do I escalate my ‘no’ into shouting/yanking/hitting or is there another approach that will achieve something more desirable than what it’s doing? We all know people who have escalated their own reactions beyond what is reasonable, either with horses, dogs or people, and I’m sure it’s mostly out of frustration at not knowing a better way.

I’ll admit I feel like a total idiot when I come on the dog forum because everyone talks about stupid other dog owners and how many idiots there are out there, and I’m one of those people who is making mistakes with my first dog.

 

[{97702}]

What’s wrong with getting a behaviourist to help? In the same way you might get someone that understands horse behaviour to help you train your horse? I wasn’t born knowing how to train my dog to be the perfect citizen but does that mean I shouldn’t have a dog, or does it mean I get a dog but then invest in training to help me understand how they think? To be honest the behaviourist I had out mostly taught me about my own behaviour and how it was reflected in my dog. It may have seemed obvious to those on the outside but I needed someone to give me that moment of clarity.

I suppose what I mean is: dog does something undesirable, I say no to indicate it’s undesirable, dog keeps going or escalates it’s undesirable behaviour. Do I escalate my ‘no’ into shouting/yanking/hitting or is there another approach that will achieve something more desirable than what it’s doing? We all know people who have escalated their own reactions beyond what is reasonable, either with horses, dogs or people, and I’m sure it’s mostly out of frustration at not knowing a better way.

I’ll admit I feel like a total idiot when I come on the dog forum because everyone talks about stupid other dog owners and how many idiots there are out there, and I’m one of those people who is making mistakes with my first dog.

I wouldn’t get a behaviourist out for my horse either 😊 I would do what has always been done the world over - I would ask the advice of someone with more experience than me, whether that be the breeder of my puppy or the charity that re-homes my rescue to me. I’m lucky I have my mum, and I still ask her advice after 32 years of owning my own dogs/not living at home. Similarly if I have an issue with a new rescue I’ll message the charity where I got the dog. What I don’t require is someone who sets themselves up as an expert with pseudo scientific arguments, who frequently knows less than I do. Obviously that is NOT all behaviourists but from my direct observations and experiences it is a lot of them

 

[MotherOfChickens]

What’s wrong with getting a behaviourist to help? In the same way you might get someone that understands horse behaviour to help you train your horse? I wasn’t born knowing how to train my dog to be the perfect citizen but does that mean I shouldn’t have a dog, or does it mean I get a dog but then invest in training to help me understand how they think? To be honest the behaviourist I had out mostly taught me about my own behaviour and how it was reflected in my dog. It may have seemed obvious to those on the outside but I needed someone to give me that moment of clarity.

I’ll admit I feel like a total idiot when I come on the dog forum because everyone talks about stupid other dog owners and how many idiots there are out there, and I’m one of those people who is making mistakes with my first dog.

absolutely nothing wrong with calling a behaviourist. the best trainers (horse or dog) use learning theory even if they aren't aware they are doing it, the worst ones interpret behaviour incorrectly (think many NH horse trainers or Caesar Milan) and some of those muddle through regardless because the majority of animals want an easy life. As CC said, there are good and bad trainers and good and bad behaviourists. Training in behaviour is important for all species, domesticated or not.

And please don't ever think people on here don't make mistakes, they just don't admit to them on a forum.

 

[numptynovice]

I wouldn’t get a behaviourist out for my horse either 😊 I would do what has always been done the world over - I would ask the advice of someone with more experience than me, whether that be the breeder of my puppy or the charity that re-homes my rescue to me. I’m lucky I have my mum, and I still ask her advice after 32 years of owning my own dogs/not living at home. Similarly if I have an issue with a new rescue I’ll message the charity where I got the dog. What I don’t require is someone who sets themselves up as an expert with pseudo scientific arguments, who frequently knows less than I do. Obviously that is NOT all behaviourists but from my direct observations and experiences it is a lot of them

In this case, I messaged the rescue and when the problem didn’t improve they recommended a trainer/behaviourist (not sure which!) and advised some classes. The trainer definitely seems to be more about common sense and practical tips than science.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I wouldn’t get a behaviourist out for my horse either 😊 I would do what has always been done the world over - I would ask the advice of someone with more experience than me, whether that be the breeder of my puppy or the charity that re-homes my rescue to me. I’m lucky I have my mum, and I still ask her advice after 32 years of owning my own dogs/not living at home. Similarly if I have an issue with a new rescue I’ll message the charity where I got the dog. What I don’t require is someone who sets themselves up as an expert with pseudo scientific arguments, who frequently knows less than I do. Obviously that is NOT all behaviourists but from my direct observations and experiences it is a lot of them

I do think it is different for those of us who have had dogs all our lives, or/and have access to extremely experienced people to ask for advice (which is what I do if there is a horse problem).

 

[numptynovice]

I do think it is different for those of us who have had dogs all our lives, or/and have access to extremely experienced people to ask for advice (which is what I do if there is a horse problem).

It definitely is. I do ask the rescue a lot, but also read up in stuff and get myself confused. I really wish that I’d grown up in a horsey/dog family as I love animals so much - I’m trying to give my kids the sort of childhood I always wanted.

To be honest, I posted because I knew there are lots of people with huge amounts of experience and I was interested in their views! So thanks to everyone who responded 😁 it’s been really interesting and helpful.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I prefer to use positive reinforcement where I can but am flexible about it, use negative reinforcement much more with the horse (pressure release/advance retreat etc) use negative punishment at times (time outs for puppies/removing attention for bitey puppies) try to steer clear of positive punishment but sometimes a yell or a "correction" come out as a reaction don't they? I don't buy into setting up to fail in order to correct though. Both dogs seem to have got the hang of "no" so I must have done something somewhere along the lines to get that in! Poor creatures. We've muddled through and they're both pretty good citizens.

I think reactivity isn't so much a training problem as an emotional problem though. The point of the retreat/counter conditioning/trigger avoidance work is not to train better behaviour it is to modify the emotional response. The problem with training the reactive behaviour away ( including training it away with positive reinforcement!) is that if you just tackle the behaviour and the emotional fear response remains at some point it can resurface. It's a difficult thing though and I don't envy anyone dealing with a reactive dog and I just think you need to do whatever you can manage with management , training and tackling the fear itself.

I'm kind of fed up with the judgey judgey of the ONLY positive reinforcement and NEVER anything else set at the moment so find myself a bit more open to other approaches even if they aren't what I would choose to use myself as a first port of call. As long as the means are proportionate and the goal legitimate. If it works it works. Am fed up of dogma.

I don't know if any of that makes sense or us anyway relevant to the discussion. Lol.