Thoughts on horses having no forage overnight?

[kimberleigh]

My opinion has always been that horses shouldn't be left stood without access to forage. Ideally if not grossly overweight etc then ad-lib hay/haylage should be available. But recently I've been to my yard later in the day than usual and the other horses have finished all their forage by 10pm and sometimes haven't been seen to by 10am the next day :/

I think I'm right to be concerned but wanted to gauge others opinions?

 

[Goldenstar]

It's not good practise . A twelve hour period is far far to long .
If the horse ran out at midnight and you where on the yard at six that's one thing but twelve hours is ridiculous.
I give fatties chopped straw at night so they have something if they gobble all their 'nice 'forage
However some recent ulcer work has shown that being without forage at night is less damaging than during the day they seem to think that acid production slows at night and is linked to the body clock however I would think that makes it more important they have forage as it gets light .

 

[DJ]

Horses are trickle feeders, so really they need a constant supply to go at, but for many people out of sight is out of mind, and as they left them with a huge net, they picture it lasting a long time. We had this on an old yard we were on, and a few of us went up late one evening for a bonfire/party, and as you`d expect they went to check their horses before we all left (10.30pm ish) and a number of them were shocked to see their horses stood with empty nets, seeing is believing in a lot of cases.

At any point mine have been stabled or yarded, I use the small holed nets, sometimes doubled up, and will leave 2 or 3 hung up for them. They would have to work a bit harder to get at it, but would always have some left in a morning. So yes, I agree with your concern, that it isn`t great for horses digestive systems to be stood for 10hrs + with nothing to eat.

 

[Pebble101]

I don't like it if my horses are in and get their last haynet (small holed and double netted) at 10pm (they are kept at home). It was really difficult when my horse was restricted earlier this year because he had laminitis and needed to lose weight.

 

[ester]

I'm with you, preferably with forage quality being adjusted to allow it for any fattiers. But out of our small yard prob only about half get fed adlib, a couple of owners come from different countries/horsey backgrounds so would disagree although one of those acts like a pretty classic ulcer horse (they will only go a few hours without though/still have forage and 10pm, will be seen at 7am. Another will go 12 hours without, the owner knows this but I find their management techniques in general a bit questionable too anyway and horse is good weight.

I tend to not get involved unless asked for my opinion, they have all been told the results of the forage analysis and what I feed to compensate and seem interested but then carry on their way anyway and then are surprised when feeding magnesium actually makes a difference . I don't wade in on the TBs persistent seedy toe either, or other things I might actually know about . I do get asked sometimes though .

 

[JillA]

Stomachs with nothing in them = acid environment with nothing to absorb the acid = high risk of gastric ulcers. If horses are greedy/overweight you can either double net or feed forage such as straw or old hay with not much other than fibre in it. I have some two year old but clean hay which they are not keen on and mine get 1/3 haylage, 1/3 good hay and 1/3 of this old hay. There is usually some old hay left by morning.

 

[Orca]

Horses are trickle feeders, so really they need a constant supply to go at...

They are meant to be trickle feeders and that's the difficulty with giving free access to large quantities of hay. Certainly in the case of my own mare, who arrived overweight. When presented with a quantity of anything, she will dive right in, gorge herself and be left with nothing until I arrive. It isn't easy to replicate a grazing environment within a stable.

My mare is cresty, does have fat pads and is on a vet directed diet of restricted soaked hay. She has a slow feeder from martsnets (the smallest holed net I could find), in an effort to help her graze rather than gorge her hay ration. I am looking into feeding straw to bulk out her nets.

I know a number of people who do intentionally bed on straw, so their horses can continue to graze after their hay is gone. Is anyone at your yard doing this, op?

 

[MyBoyChe]

I do agree in principal, but I find it impossible to keep my highland at a healthy weight if I feed ad lib forage. He is only stabled at night through December to February, and only then if it is laying wet like it is now, if its cold and dry he stays out! If in he gets 2 x small holed hay nets, 1 with decent hay which has been soaked, 1 with 2 yr old hay which is perfectly fine but not so palatable. He gets 6kg dry weight in total and there is never any left!
I estimate he has from approx 10pm til 6am without forage, I dont like it but I have to be so strict with him. He is on shavings because he will eat his whole bed if he has straw, he really would eat until he burst if I left him to his own devices! He is out all day and there is still some grass and bits of hedgerow left to eat. I wish I could come up with a solution to feed him a constant slow stream but I cant, if I use hay nets with too small holes or double net he gets really cross and bites through them.
I do agree that leaving a horse for 12 hours with nothing to eat is too long though, much too long

 

[ester]

Is there a reason you don't feed him straw, or only 2 year old hay?

 

[EmmasMummy]

i was always taught more than 4 hours and you could have issue start, maybe a tad scaremongering but still. ~I used the double net method and a very tightly packed haylege net with my old cob. 2 medium and he would still have a bit come 9am.

 

[Cortez]

Yes, horses are grazers; yes, they are supposed to trickle feed; but I bet many, many horses go 12 hours or more without food at night with no ill effects. If fed ad lib a lot of horses would be/are overweight (mine would certainly be!). I have fed ad lib (result: fat horses), and now feed weighed amounts to maintain my horses at their optimum. Never had any problems feeding this way. There are a variety of ways to look after horses, there is no one, absolute rule that applies to every equine on the planet, despite what a lot of posters on here might think.......

 

[Orca]

...He is on shavings because he will eat his whole bed if he has straw, he really would eat until he burst if I left him to his own devices!...

Mine is the same. I moved her off of straw because she was eating her way through twelve bales per week (+ her usual hay ration)! Even when I move her to straw as a part hay replacer, she will still have periods without forage because there is just no way of slowing her eating down enough to make it last, while also keeping her at a healthy intake.

 

[honetpot]

I have mainly fatties so they have free access to straw and only get just under 1.5% of their body weight in hay. I try and buy old hay at the end of the year, which is actually cheaper but I have storage. I also by marsh hay which takes longer to eat, or late cut hay, as long as its not dusty. Last year I had problems as I could not get good straw and it was cheaper to feed hay, so they came out of winter too fat.
I think I would rather take rug off and give them more to eat if they were stabled.
When I had a TB the aim was that he had just a bit in his hay net in the morning, so he had at least 12kg possibly more. I was on a yard once where the owner was so paranoid about her ponies getting laminitis, they were on rubber mats, they literally had eaten their hay in an hour, I just do not know how they coped.

 

[Cortez]

I was on a yard once where the owner was so paranoid about her ponies getting laminitis, they were on rubber mats, they literally had eaten their hay in an hour, I just do not know how they coped.

But they did cope, I presume? And coped better with less hay than they had with laminitis? I have worked with horses that were fed twice a day, morning and evening, and got two slices of hay, total, so were without feed for most of the time. They were sleek, shiny, never had a problem with their digestions and got on with life. They were hard working ranch horses, though so perhaps their lifestyles were conducive to their style of management.

 

[ShadowHunter]

It's not ideal, I have mine on ad-lib even when she was overweight. Horses are designed to eat between 16-20 hours per day so 12 hours without anything at all isn't good.

 

[honetpot]

But they did cope, I presume? And coped better with less hay than they had with laminitis? I have worked with horses that were fed twice a day, morning and evening, and got two slices of hay, total, so were without feed for most of the time. They were sleek, shiny, never had a problem with their digestions and got on with life. They were hard working ranch horses, though so perhaps their lifestyles were conducive to their style of management.

The thing was they had a low body score and never in any danger of it and were worked at least an hour a day, if the children did not ride they were lunged, they ended up super fit mini racehorses and not much fun for the children to ride.These ponies coped with it I think, because they were out most of the day but the next one she bought and tried regime on it quickly got bored and sour and ended up making a huge loss on what was basically a nice pony.

 

[Cortez]

I think people perhaps get a little too hung up on the "rules" and don't pay much attention to what the actual outcomes are. Ad lib is a very nice idea, but just doesn't work with all horses and therefore cannot be a blanket recommendation. There are always people who truly believe that their way is the "right" (and therefore only) way, but horses thrive under all sorts of regimes, and conversely don't always do well when the owner is doing everything by the book. A lot of horses don't have forage all throughout the night and do just fine with no problems at all, some horses may have problems caused by long periods without. Nothing is absolute.

 

[DJ]

They are meant to be trickle feeders and that's the difficulty with giving free access to large quantities of hay.

At no point in my post did I say give free access to large quantities, neither have I said anywhere to feed adlib

Mine always seem to be good doers (a nightmare at times with restricted paddocks, strip grazing and grazing muzzles), so keeping a check of their weight is a key factor, but they can still have a constant supply to go at, as stated in my original post, with small holed nets, doubled up, and where needed I soaked the haynets first and/or mixed good quality straw in with it.

Adlib for fatties/greedy ponies is never a good thing as they get fit to pop, I`ve had them in the past where they would stand at a round bale and not move til it had gone lol ... However there are ways and means of giving a constant supply of fibre to keep the gut working as nature intended, with out supplying vast quantities of calories

I know a few people who bed down on a good quality oat straw too, so the horses can graze that if they run out of hay overnight.

 

[DJ]

Mine is the same. I moved her off of straw because she was eating her way through twelve bales per week (+ her usual hay ration)!

Eeeeeppppp!!!!! I thought I had an eating machine lolol !!!!

 

[[100323]]

My ponies are fed in small hole haynets, and given a straw nets for something to nibble. Quite often they switch between eating straw and hay. One pony does not have an off switch and will eat until the net is empty. When I tried ad lib hay he just put on weight. The other two are quite happy to leave hay in their nets and go back to it later.

 

[Lintel]

It's not great but I have tried the smallest hole haynets and my boy still stands a good part of the night without hay. I've also tried having a rubbish alternative such as straw but it also goes!! We got a real scare last year when he took colic(although the cause appeared to be the grass) since then the yard owner very kindly puts in a wee extra net at the night checks for me. I'd say he stands for around 6-7 hours without forage unfortunately, but if he had ad-lib I would have to roll him out his stable.

 

[EllenJay]

People seem very hung up on the fact that horses should be eating 16+ hours a day - they are forgetting that horses digestive system is also designed to cope with famine and plentiful. Horses "should" get fat in the summer and skinny in the winter. When we constantly feed them their metabolism stops, and they just get fat, and that is when they get laminitis.

If we are going to keep them in this artificial environment, then we need to replicate how their systems work, and that includes not feeding more in the winter.

 

[jaffa2311]

My welsh cob mare struggles with her weight A LOT in the summer. She's muzzled 24/7. However, in Winter her weight drops and she looks a different horse, which I allow to happen as it's good for her.

She goes from chunky county show welsh cob to sporty cob cross TB look (according to people who don't know she's welsh!). She gets ad lib good quality hay in Winter, I like there to be some left, but I don't feed her anything else.

I notice a HUGE difference in her behaviour in the morning, if she's had enough hay. She's very bolshy and anxious if she's been without for any length of time, and calm and quiet if she's had plenty. She's also on a straw bed which she eats if she runs out of hay, which tells me if I've put enough in! I either have all 3 banks or none at all!

I also have a weanling who is fed ad lib hay and on straw (which she wouldnt dream of eating). She gets through a lot of hay for a 12 h foal and gets more than some of the adult horses! I'd hate to think of a baby going without and believe it would possibly create resentment towards being stabled. My foal LOVES her stable, because of the hay/feed and is keen to come in at any point during the day, whether her friends are out or not. I don't think she would feel like this if she was going 12 hours without food in there!

 

[Nativelover]

I think part of the problem is timing of the feeding. For example, a fellow livery leaves a morning net for her horse, that is empty by 10am as he is so hungry and the net is not very full.
The horse then gets another at 4 pm which again is empty by 9pm as so hungry therefore stands with absolutely nothing to eat until 9 the next morning.

IMO this is a pretty poor way of providing rations, smaller amounts spread through a longer day would be better.
As for horses being designed to starve, I'm sorry but that is simply not true. In their natural environment they would still pick and graze at whatever they can find, even if that means travelling a greater distance. It may not be in abundance but it's still something however small, going through the gut.

 

[pippixox]

they can stay without hay or a bit of the night- but i would not be happy with 10-10! when my boy used to be on livery years ago (15'2 ex racer- who is quite a good doer or his type but not huge) and they would have one medium net for the night- they were often in by 5, if not earlier in the winter, and out at 8am. the really gannet horses were done by 10pm probably. My boy ended up having more hard feed than i ever have to give him now to keep weight on, but because he wasn't getting enough forage.
I have 2 horses, 2 ponies in a barn over night in the winter, with 4 large hay nets with small holes and a hay feeder that holds the equivalent of 2-3 hay nets worth. even this morning when I had a new years lie in there were still a few tiny scraps. I would rather all hay was in a feeder as then they are eating from the floor but they just end up trampling too much and hay nets do slow them down.
it is hard with over weight horses. my friends pony lives on woodchip with a mini shetland companion, and she managed to get laminitus a few months ago, with no grass access. I think because she ate everything so quickly that her owner kept topping up her hay, and she was eating enough for a large horse. now she is on rations and eats so fast it is often gone in a matter of hours.
personally I would want my horse to have 2 nets if stabled that long (OP), even if one net was older hay to reduce calories

 

[Flora]

Wish there was a"like" button! I totally agree with Cortez. I have a few greedy horses on my yard, including one of my own, who would eat everything in sight until there was none left all at the one sitting!. Ad lib sounds good, but if you have greedy horses, it would be impossible to keep them going in haylage all night. Never mind the cost! Mine get a certain amount each night and will be left standing for a while overnight with nothing until 7am, and they have never came to any harm. I even had a Tb who came to me with ulcers, (was treated and correctly managed), was given his net, which was usually empty next morn and his ulcers never came back.
Rules are all very well, but sometimes they are meant to be broken.

 

[Goldenstar]

People seem very hung up on the fact that horses should be eating 16+ hours a day - they are forgetting that horses digestive system is also designed to cope with famine and plentiful. Horses "should" get fat in the summer and skinny in the winter. When we constantly feed them their metabolism stops, and they just get fat, and that is when they get laminitis.

If we are going to keep them in this artificial environment, then we need to replicate how their systems work, and that includes not feeding more in the winter.

You make the huge assumption that all horses are fat .
While I do it think it's natural and good that good doers not getting enough work to keep them slim should have restricted food in winter not all horses are not getting enough work or fatties .
Sometimes fat horses have to be without food for a time because being fat is more dangerous to their health than the risk of ulcers but twelve hours stabled with nothing to eat is just too long .
But just because horses can survive famine does not mean it desirable .

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

My opinion has always been that horses shouldn't be left stood without access to forage. Ideally if not grossly overweight etc then ad-lib hay/haylage should be available. But recently I've been to my yard later in the day than usual and the other horses have finished all their forage by 10pm and sometimes haven't been seen to by 10am the next day :/

I think I'm right to be concerned but wanted to gauge others opinions?

Some of our livery horses finish their food by 10 and have nothing till the morning where as other owners hold back their hay when they come in till ridden in the evening about 7.30pm and then give them their hay. I give mine 1 section at 5pm and the other two sections at 10pm, it is the owners prerogative when they have it at 4 - 5 -6 7-.30pm. I leave it out if they want it and give half or none depending on the owners request

 

[fattylumpkin]

Wild horses in winter are still 'eating' but their forage is so low or empty of nutrition; like tree bark or twigs or whatever they can get their teeth into and get their saliva production going. I don't think there's any research that says it's natural for horses to have nothing in their stomachs for long periods, they do need *something* to chew at, just not necessarily prime summer hay.

 

[Orca]

At no point in my post did I say give free access to large quantities, neither have I said anywhere to feed adlib

I didn't mean to say you had but was using your point about horses being trickle feeders (grazers), to highlight how unnatural the provision of hay can be, in comparison to the natural feeding pattern of horses and that it can be difficult to replicate grazing (little and often) in a stable environment. It seems we use similar methods in an effort to try ��