Thoughts on saddles...

[atlantis]

This is really long I'm sorry, but there are some really knowledgable people on here and I'd like their opinion.

My mare has been tricky to fit. Tried a fair few saddles last year and although saddlers always said that they fitted well, Lottie said otherwise. Head shaking and not working through well and I ended up with a Heather Moffat Flexee (with gullet plates), which has been great and Lottie has been going really really well.

However a previous shoulder problem raised its head again recently. She has a weird 1/10th lameness which is related to tight muscles of the thoracic sling. Proven last time (18 months ago shortly after I bought her) not to be her feet. With vet, farrier, Physio, saddler friend and me (bring a human Physio) and doing extensive reading (thank you Dr Hillary Clayton) and lots of massage and muscle release work, I've narrowed it down to Seratus Ventralis Thoracis (i.e. Under gullet of saddle) being key. When this is sore her other thoracic sling muscles are tight and sore and she has a short step. She has rehabbed well with lots of walking in hand and Physio with me massaging in between and the Physio said I could start working her.

So I start riding bare back and she's going great. Really great!! I pop her saddle on Friday and she is most def short from the beginning and doing the small hop in the few strides of trot we did. So obviously this saddle, which has been checked recently to fit well, doesn't move at all, has caused this recent issue.

Straight back for a massage and a chat with a saddler (treed saddles) who is a livery on our yard (handy!!). She is happy for us to try everything she has got, but did mention that the way she is presenting she may need to go completely treeless.

In any saddle she never went anywhere near as well as she has been going this past couple of weeks in the bare back pad. So she may have a point.

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts? I'd looked into the vogue and thought about the smart solution saddles too.

Sorry for the length of this post. Wanted to give the background info as much as possible.

Interesting link to some Dr Hillary Clayton work here

http://www.horsecollaborative.com/its-all-about-the-forelimb/

 

[Sukistokes2]

I use the HM treeless on my difficult to fit cob. I have the Fhoenix version of the saddle which I prefer because I find the girth straps are too close together and too far back on the vogue. My version of the saddle has like a point strap which really suits my horse. You have to get used to balancing them, which to be honest didn't take too long. My local fitter was very newly trained and didn't even know what a Fhoenix was, tried to talk me in to another saddle.....errr no !
They are very comfortable and nice to ride in, feel like a " real" saddle. Some treeless I've tried feel like your sitting on a barrel.
My friend has the solutions which she loves.

 

[DirectorFury]

Solution saddles might be your, err, solution!
FfionWinnie had a fair few threads about hers (fitting/trying/buying) a few months ago which you should be able to find by searching.

 

[hippocobamus]

Solution saddles all the way. My smart saddle has honestly been the best horsey item I've ever bought. The trial service is excellent and gives you plenty of time to make a decision - there's no reason not to try one (and if you're like me, you'll never look back)!

 

[atlantis]

Ok so I'll be making a stop at the solution stand at yhl next week then. Good timing!! HM not there as far as I can see.

I'll have a look for the threads on it and see. Saddler friend today moaned a bit about how the concept is great but she felt the position the rider was put into wasn't great and it was a lot like riding bare back.

Any thoughts on that? I'm very much a person who makes her own mind about things. I'm also so tuned in to this mare now, so she will tell me if she is comfortable.

ATM if I could do dressage in my bare back pad I would. I'm getting some great abs I'm properly schooling in it!!!

 

[be positive]

Solution saddles might be your, err, solution!
FfionWinnie had a fair few threads about hers (fitting/trying/buying) a few months ago which you should be able to find by searching.

I think FW is now having problems with her Solution and has started using something else, her mare was sore in a similar area to the OP's horse, may be send her a pm for more info.

 

[Wheels]

I'm a bit confused by your post OP

The serratus ventralis are not under the gullet of the saddle really - they go from the underside of the shoulder blade to the ribs - they are classed as deep muscles so maybe you could shed some light on how and why you've narrowed it down to these specific sections of muscle?

In terms of treed saddles - did your saddle fitter say why treed saddles might not work? Are we talking points of the tree or does your horse prefer some flexibility maybe?

 

[atlantis]

I think FW is now having problems with her Solution and has started using something else, her mare was sore in a similar area to the OP's horse, may be send her a pm for more info.

Ah ok. I'll have a hunt for the posts and have a read first. Thanks be positive. I hope you're well. Thanks for all your help with her going barefoot last year. It was great to know her feet really are good. Confirmed by farrier / trimmer man (who really is awesome) who gave her a really good going over recently.

 

[Cheiro1]

I might be wrong with some of the newer treeless saddles but in the older treeless saddles the stirrup bars were secured by way of webbing which went up and over the horses back, and effectively creates a pressure line at that point.

If you have a horse which is sore behind it's shoulder this might not be ideal? I tried one on my welsh mare for a couple of weeks and it made her sore.

As I said this might not be the case with the newer treeless saddles.

 

[atlantis]

I'm a bit confused by your post OP

The serratus ventralis are not under the gullet of the saddle really - they go from the underside of the shoulder blade to the ribs - they are classed as deep muscles so maybe you could shed some light on how and why you've narrowed it down to these specific sections of muscle?

In terms of treed saddles - did your saddle fitter say why treed saddles might not work? Are we talking points of the tree or does your horse prefer some flexibility maybe?

They do. Are very deep and I'm my mind I think of them much like the seretus anterior in the human. Scapula stability when loading forelimb. Stance phase for horses, press ups for humans. Obviously with no clavicle horses are reliant on these muscles.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/Atlantisjls/Mobile%20Uploads/8A12E4DA-4C2C-4B93-92E2-759F7BEBD4F8_zpsltbu8u81.png[IMG/]

Think I'm doing pic wrong. Can't remember how to post pics!!

Using this picture I have taken from google just now to try to explain my thinking, if I do some deep trigger point and massage type release work either side of the scapula, with my mares head flexed towards me, I can get very deep in behind the scapula. If I do this regularly then the soreness she has been having elsewhere doesn't occur(more in brachiocephalic and other neck muscles I forget their names).

Also the more movement she gets the better. Down hill was initially difficult for her but now she storms down the hills. Rightly or wrongly I used Dr Hillary Clayton work on forelimb biomechanics to decide to work her through it in hand, up and down gentle hills. It worked a treat Physio was very impressed!!

I'm not sure what my saddler friend was thinking when she brought it up. It may be that the points of the gullet restricted her scapula movement maybe. But we tried so many treed saddles last year, all I knew was she floated around in the flexee initally.

I'm my own worse enemy in some ways as I over analyse. All I know now is if I keep her moving, without a saddle on, and massage regularly (most days) in the areas mentioned, with an all over check about every week or if she looks off, then she looks good.

Sorry if this makes no sense. I'm rambling!!

 

[atlantis]

I might be wrong with some of the newer treeless saddles but in the older treeless saddles the stirrup bars were secured by way of webbing which went up and over the horses back, and effectively creates a pressure line at that point.

If you have a horse which is sore behind it's shoulder this might not be ideal? I tried one on my welsh mare for a couple of weeks and it made her sore.

As I said this might not be the case with the newer treeless saddles.

I'll keep an eye out for this thanks. Made a note to ask solutions about the stirrup bars!!

 

[ycbm]

WOW. Built on a longitudinally fixed and laterally flexing tree that allows the whole front arch to roll with the shoulder movement. My horses love them.

 

[Leo Walker]

Nearly there with the pic!

 

[atlantis]

Nearly there with the pic!

What did I need to do differently.

Hasn't thought about a wow. Good idea!!!

 

[Nicnac]

Not a fan of WOW just because I felt perched but loved the BUA saddle - very different. My horse's shoulder felt very free and I found it comfortable http://www.buasaddles.com/

 

[Leo Walker]

its

 

[catkin]

Sorry if this is inappropriate, it worked on one of my sensitive ones........

Does your saddle use a short/dressage girth? If so does the buckle lie over this muscle?

Consider using the longest length of dressage girth that will fit on your saddle, preferably one that will reach the flap so there is no gap with straps only on the horse. If this isn't possible then perhaps look at using a long saddle cloth and/or extend a sheepskin girth cover so there is backing behind the buckleguard and the girthstraps.

 

[DirectorFury]

I think FW is now having problems with her Solution and has started using something else, her mare was sore in a similar area to the OP's horse, may be send her a pm for more info.

Oh dear, I've not been on the forum as much lately so must have missed that . It's a shame as they sound a great idea.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry if this is inappropriate, it worked on one of my sensitive ones........

Does your saddle use a short/dressage girth? If so does the buckle lie over this muscle?

Consider using the longest length of dressage girth that will fit on your saddle, preferably one that will reach the flap so there is no gap with straps only on the horse. If this isn't possible then perhaps look at using a long saddle cloth and/or extend a sheepskin girth cover so there is backing behind the buckleguard and the girthstraps.

I went to a biomechanics conference where they said they have tested horses stride length and that all short girth saddles should be fitted as long as possible. I was pleased because I've done it for years because I've never been comfortable with seeing a narrow strip of horse flesh between the two straps.

 

[hippocobamus]

I think FW is now having problems with her Solution and has started using something else, her mare was sore in a similar area to the OP's horse, may be send her a pm for more info.

The fit probably just needs adjusting. And at least with a solution saddle, this is possible. When hippocob when from more hippo to more cob, we had to make a small tweak with shims to keep the fit perfect.

Don't let it put you off trying, OP. I've always found the customer service at solutions to be really good and helpful if I have ever had a query or wanted to check something.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I have both of my horses in lavinia Mitchell saddles they are made to allow the horse to move freely and they are fitted slightly wider to allow this with a shim numnah, the saddles have very wide panels and a wide gullet so sit very well on the horses back distributing the weight evenly with good spine clearance, the fitters also do a lot of remedial fitting for horses that have muscle damage due to poor saddle fit.

It might be worth having a look on her website I know Lavinia covers most of the country now with various other fitters that work with her, it might be an option for you if your looking for a conventional treed saddle, I did try a treeless on one of mine but I just didn't like the felt of it so I really wanted a treed saddle and they work for me.

 

[Taliesan]

Have you considered Balance saddles? They are treed saddles but the tree is very wide and the saddles are designed to fit the shape of a moving horse, not a static one. They have loads of really useful information on their website about their saddling system and why they do things the way they do.

http://www.balanceinternational.com/All-Questions-and-Answers_B32385O.aspx

They also have some really good videos on their youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/ConstructiveSaddling/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

Even if you don't want to get one of their saddles, all of the information they provide certainly gives you things to look out for when purchasing any saddle.

I have a Balance saddle; both myself and my horse love it. He moves excellently and I find it so comfortable.

The guys at Balance are also very friendly and happy to help you with any and all questions you may have. Their after sales support is also excellent - I can't recommend them enough and I would now never buy another make of saddle.

 

[atlantis]

Thanks for the suggestions. Similar reasoning behind those types of saddles it seems. Not sure what to do first really. Wait for yhl I think.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Oh dear, I've not been on the forum as much lately so must have missed that . It's a shame as they sound a great idea.

I hadn't mentioned it on the forum because I have only just had the issue and solution are advising me about what to do. Their customer service has still proven to be second to none so far and I am hopeful with their expertise we can fix it.

The good news is she now accepts a treed saddle which she would not when I got the solution due to the previous "custom made" saddle being such a disaster.

Atlantis am I right in thinking you are in Scotland? Perhaps I imagined that. Anyway if you are I've just had a really interesting first contact with Anne Scott who is a master saddler. I've got the opportunity of an appointment with her in a few weeks at my SJ coach's yard and I plan to take it. She stocks
a variety of makes and so far anyway, I like what she is saying. My plan is to buy a (hopefully second hand not too expensive!) treed dressage saddle so I can mix and match and hopefully avoid further problems. My horse is actually a fully trained saddle fitter herself and quick to tell me her opinion of saddles and whether she approves of them! Luckily I've started understanding what she's telling me!

 

[atlantis]

Thanks for the reply FfionWinnie. I'm a bit frustrated by it all ATM and whilst happy I can ride in the bare back pad, a proper hack would be nice but I value my life a little too much I think! I'm in the midlands so not Scotland unfortunately.

My mare appears to be a saddle fitter too lol. I'll quiz solution next week and also wow. However it'll have to be a second hand saddle I'm short of money and supposedly saving for a small lorry. I may have a buyer for my old saddle though which is good.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Yes I can ride in my BBP but as it has nothing to plug my air jacket (which I got after a serious accident in April) into I don't want to now.

I am pretty sure I will never buy her a new saddle again. I'm going to educate myself on saddle fitting, just like I've had to become a lay vet and lay physio to fully understand and implement the regime she needs to keep her right!

Then I can hopefully find my own saddles. To be frank I've got from "needing" a beautiful calfskin jump saddle to not caring what the heck it is as long as she likes it.

The wow fitter I used did have the option of telling me the prescription I needed and me then going to find them second hand. There is a second hand solutions group on FB (and actually wow too). Worth joining them.

 

[atlantis]

Yes I can ride in my BBP but as it has nothing to plug my air jacket (which I got after a serious accident in April) into I don't want to now.

I am pretty sure I will never buy her a new saddle again. I'm going to educate myself on saddle fitting, just like I've had to become a lay vet and lay physio to fully understand and implement the regime she needs to keep her right!

Then I can hopefully find my own saddles. To be frank I've got from "needing" a beautiful calfskin jump saddle to not caring what the heck it is as long as she likes it.

The wow fitter I used did have the option of telling me the prescription I needed and me then going to find them second hand. There is a second hand solutions group on FB (and actually wow too). Worth joining them.

Yes I have the same air jacket issues. I'd probably go further afield if I could reliably clip it on but unfortunately not.

I'm finding that this is how I am getting. I'm a human Physio which gives me some knowledge and I'm finding myself questioning everything and thinking outside the box. I don't know whether it's not trusting someone who makes money from advising me. I don't watch tv or anything like that any more, I simply spend my time researching and reading. Gotta love the internet.

I will never change my Equine Physio, farrier or dentist as I trust them to be honest with me, do a brilliant job and not rip me off. Saddles is hard as they are so much money how can saddlers not be invested in making a sale. I'm not saying that they'll lie or anything like that, but maybe believe their product is superior to others even if actually there is something better out there. How can you not be like that if you make your living selling a product. You must believe in it.

I'll look into those fb groups!!

Hhmmmmm.... too much over analysing.

Do you mind me asking what went wrong with your solution. PM by all means.

Ax

 

[FfionWinnie]

I've said to this saddler I want a slot with her but I don't expect to buy a saddle. I want her to advise me on what makes might suit. Her response to my tale of saddle woes was to say send her pics she loves a challenge. So we'll see but I like her so far.

I think it's too soon to say the solution has gone wrong. I need to speak to their fitter (my personal one is on maternity leave but they have forwarded her my email because they know she knows both of us) so I'll wait to try their advice before I write it off. My horse has a muscle myopathy which means she does MANY more miles under saddle than the majority of horses to keep her well. I went with solution because of their customer service and now I've hit a bump in the road, I'll find out for sure about their customer service - so far I am happy. In fact HQ replied to me immediately but I missed the reply and she sent me another email yesterday to check I had received it as she wants to get the issue sorted out.

 

[tallyho!]

As far as I know Lavinia Mitchell used to fit Balance Saddles. I would definitely consider Lavinia or one of her consultants. She's and my instructor sorted my mare out.

Also, have you looked at total contact saddles if you end up staying bareback.

 

[Taliesan]

As far as I know Lavinia Mitchell used to fit Balance Saddles. I would definitely consider Lavinia or one of her consultants. She's and my instructor sorted my mare out.

Also, have you looked at total contact saddles if you end up staying bareback.

You are right there. Lavina used to work for Balance and then went off to do her own saddles. So both are made along similar principles I believe.

When I got a Balance saddle fitter out she was more than aware I wanted a second hand saddle. So she gave me all the information I needed and told me the best sites to look out for one. As it happens I bought a new one anyway as Balance had an very new ex demo in the exact size I needed.