Thoughts on whether this type of loan would work?

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Cedars

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Evening all,

Don't want to say too much on here but would like your opinions. Looking to loan a horse off a girl who's going to uni. Here are the problems:

~She wants the horse back at the end of 3 years (which is fine by us). However, she cannot take the horse back within that time, as her mum can't cope with the horse whilst she's away. How would we go about this if, for example, it went unrepairably lame or if we couldn't afford it? I was going to suggest to her that we would give him back at the end of every term so she had the holiday to sell him on? And how would we word that in the contract?

~How does it work with tack? Do horses come with it? And if it broke?

~How does insurance work? Bit begrudged to pay as we'd basically be providing her horse with free livery? Or split it? (We have our own rider insurance).

~How do you split things like shoeing, vets bills?

I've had a look at the BHS loan agreement and its great, except its very leant towards the loaner paying for everything. I'm mostly looking for advice on how to handle her not being able to have him back whilst she's away?

Ideas would be most appreciated.

xxxx
 
I would take the horse on as full loan for the 3 years. Hopefully nothing will happen but having said that the one I had got arthritis in his hocks and had to go back and was bridle lame every time he was worked correctly.

I would suggest you have a clause in the contract that says the notice period for either side and after that notice period either she arranges to take the horse back or the she pays for the horse to be on part livery at your yard until she can return and sort the horse out. That way horse isn't going to be neglected and you get around the problem of money and shipping the horse about every term.

Regarding insurance, vets and shoeing etc if you have him on full loan I would expect to pay for everything. I would expect the horse to come with tack and rugs, anything I broke I would replace with similar standard and quality and would notify the owner.

I had a lightweight turnout that broke, I notified the owner who was happy for me to replace it.
 
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When I had a full loan, I paid for everything as if he was mine including the insurance and vaccinations. He had the stuff he came with (tack etc...) and when his reins broke I replaced them with similar ones and they went with him at the end of the loan.

I wouldn't agree to a loan that had no option of giving him back if something went wrong and I wouldn't agree to a loan where I was responsible for all vets bills (eg, colic surgery if the insurance wouldn't pay).
 
So what would you agree with regards to vets bills? That if the insurance didnt pay you'd split 50/50? Or it'd be her problem? Or ours?!?

Ella19, sorry I should have clarified, I wouldnt send him back every term end, just that if we wanted him to go back we would give him back at the end of that term so that she has time to sort something out. I like the idea about the part livery however though. Although worried about if i.e. he got kissing spines and we got stuck with a horse that we couldnt ride and she woudlnt have back.

Keep the ideas coming thanks xxxx
 
I can't comment on the first point, but I do loan a horse. I pay for everything - livery, insurance, farrier, vet, dentist etc. She came with tack and rugs, but I've bought new reins, numnah, headcollar - just bits and pieces that I like really. If her tack broke or was stolen I would expect to replace it at my own cost.
 
Ok, I'd be happy to pay routine vet bills or insurance excess for uncompicated healable injuries. When something big and bad happens the owner is completely in charge because ATEOTD it is their horse and their decision as to whether the horse should be put through surgery or PTS etc...

If I loaned my mare and she had major colic surgery I wouldn't expect the loaner to pay or do the after care. In that situation she would come home.
 
I too cannot comment on the first point. But maybe you could sub-loan? Probably a terrible idea, but it's the only one I've got.

As for paying for any vet bills, insurance etc, I pay for all. I don't look at it as "free livery" for the owner. I look at it as a "free horse" for me. I just pay his upkeep, regardless of the expense. If there's something that the insurance wouldn't cover and I couldn't afford it, I should not have the horse. Simple as that. And if I was really struggling then there is the point that perhaps the horse should be euthanised, but this would be something that would be a discussion that I'd have with the owner, at the time. But I am liable for all expense, end of.

I can, of course, send the horse back if I had to, at any time with a sufficient (ie two months) notice.

I didn't get tack, but I did get all his rugs, all in perfect condition, which I'd be obligated to keep in good repair or replace.

I think out of this all, I not only got a lovely horse, but also potentially a good friend in the owner who has been a well of useful information. <can you tell I'm really happy with my loan situation?!> :D
 
I would make sure there is a provision for you to give back the horse at any time if it's not working (usually with a months notice). If they can't take it back if something goes wrong then they should sell it and not loan it.

With all the horses I have had on loan I have paid for everything as if it was mine including insurance, jabs and minor vets bills. After all you have exclusive use. A lot of people lease horses for thousands a year and the leasers also pay maintenance costs so a full loan almosts seems cheap in comparison!
If a loan horse got something seriously wrong and needed surgery or it got a medical condition that required long term care and money I would probably terminate the loan agreement and return the horse to the owners responsibility. Any major vets bills not covered by insurance I would expect the owner to pay but as before I would probably give the horse back anyway.

With regards to tack some loan horses have come with nothing and I have used my own stiff for the horse. Some have come with everything and as above I would replace any of it if it got broken. The owner would usually write an inventory of the stuff in the loan agreement and I would make sure it was all there when I returned the horse.

Hope that helps
 
It seems that a loan agreement which clearly states exactly what is expected from both parties is essential. It should also cover how to deal with certain situations eg, if the horse did a tendon and needed 6 months box rest.
 
Personally I think insurance is the responsibility of the owner. You are loaning, but it is her horse, and you aren't the one who would be getting reimbursed for loss of use, or if the horse died or whatever.

However, I think if you'll be competing the horse, it might be reasonable to pay the extra to insure him for those activities.

Vets bills are a little more complicated and need to be agreed between you. I'd say you should probably take responsibility for minor and routine things whilst he is in your care, particularly if its something that happens from a ridden accident or injury. Anything more serious you will need to discuss with the owner and come up with an agreement beforehand for what you will do if the horse needs an emergency operation or treatment that will run to thousands.

Shoeing and all other general care is your responsibility as the loaner.

As for tack - as a general rule, if something breaks then you should replace it like for like.

With regards to returning him, I think you should just have a normal agreement that at any time either party can give say 2 months notice. That will give her the time to find another loaner or sell the horse if necessary, and is perfectly fair.
 
I have put a pony on loan in the past.
The loaner paid for her care,as if she owned it.
I paid for the yearly vaccinations and special supplements,as it benefited me
insurance-- loaner, they pay for that and the excess.if the pony was lost then the money would come to me.
If horse is insured for a lot of money I would have topped the premium up myself and settled with loaner on a realist value.
As for sending back, you could suggest that you tried to sell it for her,with commission to cover costs.Agree price before hand.
If it goes lame,well if you owned it you would have to look after it.So suggest that they pay its insurance and keep and you tend it until they can find alternative arrangements,agree to a realist time scale.
Hope that helps
 
flamehead said:
~She wants the horse back at the end of 3 years (which is fine by us). However, she cannot take the horse back within that time, as her mum can't cope with the horse whilst she's away. How would we go about this if, for example, it went unrepairably lame or if we couldn't afford it? I was going to suggest to her that we would give him back at the end of every term so she had the holiday to sell him on? And how would we word that in the contract?
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The most simple way would be to have a contract period that terminates at the end of the summer term. So, say you take the horse on in September and the uni term ends in July, you would sign a loan contract for Sept 2010 until July 2011. Then in July, you can either send the horse back to her to rehome, or you sign a new contract until July 2012.


~How does it work with tack? Do horses come with it? And if it broke?
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I've always said with tack that I want it back in approximately the same condition it went out in - so if there are any breakages I expect it repaired or replaced. With rugs, if one is wrecked beyond repair, then I'm happy with a second-hand replacement rather than new.

~How does insurance work? Bit begrudged to pay as we'd basically be providing her horse with free livery? Or split it? (We have our own rider insurance).
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This is something that you need to work out between you. Some owners like to keep the insurance in their name, so as to ensure the policy does not lapse, but some may expect the loaner to reimburse them for the insurance premiums. Vet fee insurance is often a wise choice when loaning, to cover any emergencies such as colic surgery etc.

~How do you split things like shoeing, vets bills
I've had a look at the BHS loan agreement and its great, except its very leant towards the loaner paying for everything. ?
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With most full loans (ie where the owner doesn't ride the horse at all), it is nearly always the case that the running costs are paid by the loaner.
 
I always look at loaning as buying without paying. When you have the horse, you own it in all but name and therefore you care for it and treat it as you would if you had bought it, but with the owner's approval. Therefore, you pay for insurance and livery and in return you get a 'free' horse...

Other than that, I think TGM has made some really good points about how to loan this horse (ie the termly contracts).
 
Interesting idea about contracts finishing at the end of the summer term, however that'd be mid season and therefore we could prepare a horse all winter and she'd taken it back at the beginning of the season! However, we could say that we would give her notice at the beginning of the summer term and give her all summer to sell it etc, and he'd potentially leave us on 30th September (or similar).

I am liking the idea about giving her notice and then if she needs us to have him longer than that period she pays us grass livery and costs.

I personally believe the insurance should be the owners cost, as I agree that its ultimately their horse so therefore their cost. However, I would suggest that we pay for all obvious and routine things like injections and all minor things like mini cuts etc. I also like the idea of paying the difference between what he's currently insured for to what he'd need insuring for for competing etc.

Thanks guys you're all very helpful. Keep it coming. xxxx
 
flamehead said:
I am liking the idea about giving her notice and then if she needs us to have him longer than that period she pays us grass livery and costs.
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If you do decide to do this, then I think you should have a specified weekly or monthly grass livery cost stated in your loan agreement, in case it should be necessary. Also, you should probably state the exact criteria that would necessitate this - perhaps a vet's certificate stating that the animal is no longer sound enough to continue in the work expected of it (again this should be specified - hacking, hunting, eventing etc). Slightly more problematic if you decide you can't afford the horse or just don't like the horse any more - I'm not sure many owners would be keen to sign a contract tying them to pay livery costs in those circumstances.

Much depends on the desirability of the horse concerned - if it is a sane, healthy, sound animal with a decent competition record or potential to do well competitively, then there is likely to be a queue of people waiting to loan it and the owner can afford to be fussy about what sort of contract she signs up to.
 
TGM said:
If you do decide to do this, then I think you should have a specified weekly or monthly grass livery cost stated in your loan agreement, in case it should be necessary. Also, you should probably state the exact criteria that would necessitate this - perhaps a vet's certificate stating that the animal is no longer sound enough to continue in the work expected of it (again this should be specified - hacking, hunting, eventing etc). Slightly more problematic if you decide you can't afford the horse or just don't like the horse any more - I'm not sure many owners would be keen to sign a contract tying them to pay livery costs in those circumstances.
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Ye, good plan. We would have a set grass livery price set up (and a statement that she pays for feed or whatever), vet cert also important.

With regards to being unable to afford it, we would at that point go to the bit about end of the term time. But then if she couldnt have him back....suppose we would have to have a clause about her HAVING to have him back at the end of term?

Eek. Buying sounds alot easier.
 
I thought if you had a horse on full loan you paid for everything as if they were yours, some owners like to do the insurance themselves and possibly have the loanee give them the money for it to ensure they are insured.
I have had two horses on loan in the past and loaned one out myself, they came with full tack and rugs, when i loaned out my old mare i used the BHS loan agreement, had verbal agreements with one i loaned (went well and ended up buying him), had no signed agreement with the other one i loaned which was a BIG mistake!

With regards to her not being able to have the horse back, another idea that i don't think has been mentioned - if you decided to end the loan and horse is in good health and could go on to someone else would you consider finding another loan home, I know many probably wouldn't do this but I viewed one i loaned at his previous loaners home.
 
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