Thoughts please - more GA's for my rottie

cbmcts

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Hi,

I'd really like your views on what I should do about my Rottweiler.

Settle down, this may be a very long post :eek:

He is 8.5 years old and has had various operations since he was 3

3 x Cruciate ligament repairs in 4 months at 3 yo as he wrecked the first op by hurdling a baby gate the day he got home from the RVC. That same year he had xrays and scan to diagnose the cruciate problems

2 x ear cleanouts under GA (before I discovered Thornit)

Bone chips removed from his elbow at 5yo, also at the RVC - that particular problem took a while to diagnose and he also had scans and xrays over the 3 months prior as oesteosarcoma was suspected especially as the lameness was sudden onset and of course, his age and breed.

Since then we have avoided any more orthopaedic surgery and he has done very well with a combination of weight control, hydrotherapy and in the last year or so, daily metacam but he has had an epilas (sp? Growth on his gum) removed twice, the last time was 6 weeks ago. Histology wasn't taken on the growth.

Anyway, he was at the vets yesterday for his jabs and I mentioned to the vet that the epilas was coming back. She looked and seemed very concerned that it might be more than a benign growth and recommended a biopsy but not as a matter of urgency.

Not a problem you might say - just get the biopsy and deal with any bad news after. Well, the problem is that this dog reacts badly to GA (always has done and the 'hangover' has lasted longer with each GA) but the last time he was really off for over a week after the op and tbh wasn't back to his normal, goon self for at least two weeks. He also had horrific guts for those two weeks and that also causes issues with getting his metacam into him - his hocks were noticeably stiff and sore until his tummy settled down and he could restart hydro and metacam...

I have got time to think this through as due to the poxy Olympics I cannot take any time off work until mid September for anything less then a life or death emergency and even then I'd have to lie through my teeth and risk the sack! - so the biopsy really won't happen before then as I wouldn't be happy leaving him at home alone for at least a few days after.

I was thinking about asking for a referral to somewhere like the RVC so that the lump could be checked while he was still under and they could remove if need be without waiting do a 2nd op as my vets can't do the histology on site. I would need to check that this is feasible first!

I have to be realistic though and while I have paid all his vet bills without too much quibbling in the past, there isn't mega sums of money available now - sadly, no he isn't insured, believe me I do really regret that and have learnt my very expensive lesson on that subject - and while I can find a couple of thousand to do this, I really do have to at least try and keep the bills down if at all possible so going to the RVC might be the expensive way to do it...

Soooo, what it comes down is do I;

Go straight to biopsy at my vets to find out if I need to panic?
Straight to RVC (or similar) in the hope that they can sort everything in one go and hang the expense?
Watch and wait with the risks that involves?

Anybody got thoughts, experiences or any other ideas?
 

twiglet84

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My rottie girl is 8.5 yrs old now and I too was faced with the G/A dilemma last month. She too in the past has had anaesthetic's for ear infections, dew claw removals, cruciate repair and descales. She was lame in front intermittently and like yours was worse recovering with each anaesthetic and was worried about another but without X-rays we wouldn't diagnose and then be able to treat the problem. Epulis are common in the older breed but without histopathology to confirm this type benign tumour you can't be sure.

Can't they try using different anti inflam's with there premed and post op to reduce chance of tummy upset, maybe send home with protexin. Also intra op fluids aids recovery and feeding ASAP after G/A helps recovery too xx

I would prob get your vet to debulk/remove as much as possible and then await the results of histo. Then get your vet to refer if its something more sinister. xx
 
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cbmcts

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Hi,
I think you're probably right about op and remove at the same time.

He already has the extra fluid and support during three GA
 

cbmcts

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sorry, on phone!

As I was saying...he already had the fluids etc during his last three ops and it doesn't seem to be helping much but will try injectable metacam (no other anti inflams work for him) after the op. Thanks for that idea.
 

Moomin1

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Do not watch and wait. That could result in a horrendous outcome for you and your dog. :(

I feel so bad for you because you are obviously a responsible and loving owner who has really done their absolute best for your dog.

Looking from an outside point of view (and one of someone who sees ill, neglected, dying, starving, rotting, poorly animals of all descriptions every day) then I would say go for the biopsy. I know you say your dog reacts badly to GA, but I feel maybe you love him so much that you are being quite sensitive to his reactions (I am not for one minute saying you are exaggerating - I know they do react just like you say sometimes) - but a week or so of him being under the weather IMO will be worth it if you get a more precise diagnosis. If it was me, and it came back with a prognosis of more and more ops, then yes, I would consider saying goodbye. But for the sake of one biopsy, and a week of him feeling off colour - I would go for the biopsy.

I hope it works out for you both.
 

CL66

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Could they not start off with a needle aspiration to see what the cells are doing? That's what we did with our dog, showed spindle cells then we had to go down the removal and biopsy route. I really feel for you re the ga's. My dog is only 3 and has had 6 or 7 I lose count now. Cannot be good for them!
 

twiglet84

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Could they not start off with a needle aspiration to see what the cells are doing? That's what we did with our dog, showed spindle cells then we had to go down the removal and biopsy route. I really feel for you re the ga's. My dog is only 3 and has had 6 or 7 I lose count now. Cannot be good for them!

Cant imagine many dogs allowing an FNA from the gum conscious? xxx
 

cbmcts

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Could they not start off with a needle aspiration to see what the cells are doing? That's what we did with our dog, showed spindle cells then we had to go down the removal and biopsy route. I really feel for you re the ga's. My dog is only 3 and has had 6 or 7 I lose count now. Cannot be good for them!

Thank you for that - it's certainly worth discussing with the vet :)

Cant imagine many dogs allowing an FNA from the gum conscious? xxx

I see your point but heavy sedation might do the trick? Or if they let me handle him plus sedation it could be an option...
 

cbmcts

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Do not watch and wait. That could result in a horrendous outcome for you and your dog. :(



I hope it works out for you both.

Yes, while head in sand is tempting, it's not really an option is it?
Thank you.

hi sorry to crash post but I have just posted about my Rottie with C. ligament damage - could you advise on this? Thankyou xxx

Have done :)
 

twiglet84

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Yeah true but was thinking if your going to sedate you might as well g/a to remove/debulk as more tissue would mean more for the pathologist to look at. Xxx my rottie's recovery was pretty much the same when she had sedation to when she had a full g/a. Xx
 

cbmcts

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Well, I took him to another local well respected vet for an 'unofficial' second opinion yesterday and he recommended an immediate referral to the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket - we now have an appointment there next Monday. The vet is pretty certain that it is something nasty and thinks (while emphasising that nothing is certain until MRI and biopsy) that he will possibly need the lump and a fair part of his upper jaw removed which is quite a major op. The MRI is to check that oestosarcoma isn't an issue as that is always a fear with this breed at his age. He didn't want to touch it in case it flared up/caused more problems so advised that it was dealt with by AHT start to finish.

I have always said that I wouldn't go for any more than palliative treatment for oesto because it is such a horrible disease with a poor outcome in most cases but I need to find out more about the implications of upper jaw removal...the only sensible thing I've done so far is NOT google it! So that will have to wait until next week.

I have to admit that I'm bricking it now, not helped by having to have a major row at work about the time off and of course, the cost...thank god for the plastic and I'll work out how to pay for it afterwards.
 

MurphysMinder

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I'm sorry you didn't get better news from the second vet. However, some vets do seem to look at worse case scenario so fingers crossed he only has to have a lump removal when they get in there. You are wise not to google, it can scare you to death when its a minor problem. Your vet should be able to answer all your questions, keep a pen and paper handy over the next few days so you can jot down anything that you think of that you want to ask.
Please keep us updated.
 

cbmcts

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Another update!

After a very long day yesterday there is sort of good news and a hell of a shock...they biopsied the lump on his gum and did a FNA on his lymph gland that side and it appears to not have spread too much. Still waiting for the final histology on that so it looks like it is removable with only a small portion of his jaw bone. That's the good news.

The bad news is that the scans showed that his adrenal gland is about 5 times bigger on one side than it should be and has grown into the vena cava in that area. To do anything they need to see if the growth is a) malignant and may have spread and b) exactly how it has grown into/around the vein. Even if it is operable it is a very high risk op (due to bleeding) and they said that it is up to 4 months recovery before they can even think about operating on his mouth.

I asked a lot of questions yesterday - can I just say that they are fantastic at the AHT, really kind and helpful - but I have more questions and decisions to make this week depending on the final results. In the meantime I have a very poorly (quite literally sick as a dog!) and itchy where he was shaved boy here as despite all care being taken with him he once again reacted really badly to the GA.

I've nearly made the decision just to go with palliative treatment, hoping that the adrenal tumour is benign and that any future symptoms can be treated like Cushings and also leave the gum lump alone. Neither are bothering him at the moment so his quality of life is good. While I accept that his life will be shorter than I would like the quantity of ops required to extend it - and I still have to wait and find out if they are even feasible - really worries me.

I wish this was a happier update :(
 

cbmcts

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Final sad update.

My big goon boy was PTS tonight after xrays showed advanced osteosarcoma in his front leg - he'd had a couple of weeks being a bit lame and rested but took a 'funny' step this afternoon which obviously really hurt and left him on 3 legs. Emergency xrays this evening showed bone cancer so he was let go asleep forever.

RIP handsome boy, I'm missing you lots already.
 

Dobiegirl

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Im so sorry he has had to be pts, you sound a very caring owner and it must have killed you having to make that decision but it was the right one. It dosnt make it any easier I know that but just wanted to say Im thinking of you
 

millimoo

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OP... So so sad and sorry for your loss. What a wonderful owner and friend you were to the end :(

My mum lost her Rottie at 12 yrs to bone cancer in his left shoulder. In hindsite she was incredibly lucky to have him to this age.

Big hugs to you on such a sad day x
 

CAYLA

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I am so sorry to hear that:( I have a *touch wood* healthy rotti, I have had very few problems with her health other than her cruciates and I dread any kind of limp and am constantly checking for lumps on her (although they are a fab breed to own) they have their fair share of heath issues (the cancer) being the worst.
big hugs to you and sleep tight biug fella xxx he was a very lucky boy with a very caring owner.
My akita reacts badly to anaesthetic (not recovery) but literally whilst under the last one seeing her heart stop for a while:eek: I would think long and hard b4 placing her under again, and thank the lord they are a healthy breed with few breed related health issues and she certainly is/has been a healthy dog with only one cruciate bust in her life and nothing else and just turned 12 last week:)
 

cbmcts

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Thank you all. It's been a very hard day at work as I had to break the news to my colleagues (the dogs often come to work with me) and we all ended up as a soggy mess for most of the morning.

Little dog is pining as he sadly wasn't able to see the body and of course, he is reacting to me being so upset...but my boss consoled him for a bit by having him sit on his desk while he fed him ginger nuts which he kindly dipped in his tea for the dog! I can foresee a very spoilt demon terrier...

I was asked today if I regretted not going ahead with the treatment at the AHT (helpful or what?) but TBH that is the one thing I don't regret. It's only 2 months since his scans came back clear so this OS really went ahead at speed - he wouldn't even have recovered from the adrenal tumour surgery before this happened so I would have had the guilt of putting him through major surgery for no good reason IYSWIM.

Rottweilers are a fantastic breed and I will have another one one day but not yet - it would too much like trying to replace him right now and he is irreplaceable.

Cayla

I too was paranoid about lumps and bumps but there never was any! He had been at the vet yesterday afternoon for a check up and they were pleased with his progress as his limp was improving. We got home and he twisted/turned funny as he came in from the garden, screamed and was on 3 legs so we went straight back to the vets. Even then I had to insist on an xray as they still thought it was a soft tissue injury as he was so stoic. As I understand it, the bone had fractured from the inside out - it must have been agony - but the only outward signs he showed were the initial scream, a tiny bit of drooling and heavy breathing. I'm just so glad this happened when I could get him straight to the vets as I was home with him and saw it happen.
 

Maisie2

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I'm so sorry to hear the bad news. No comfort to you at the moment, but you obviously gave him a wonderful life and did your very best for him at the end, I think that will be your consolation in the future.
 
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