thoughts - sore muscles / lethagy

flying_high

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Has anyone come across a fit adult competition horse that seems to find travelling and clinics / competing / lessons tiring / creating sore muscles? He’s 12 and has competed to medium, and is currently working below that level, and reasonably muscled and reasonably fit.

I think it is any significant exertion that leaves him tired and grumpy and sleepy the next few days, and I would say a bit non specifically sore through his muscles. He doesn’t look keen to be tacked up! Very expressive face. Though we cant find any specific soreness.

I am pretty sure diet / bodywork / footbalance / saddle / teeth / soundness etc are good.

He is a bit of a marmite horse and very up and down. I have to say I have always previously had fit adult horses who could do 2 elem / medium tests one day, and then do a lorry trip 20km pleasure ride next day and not think anything of it. Or a clinic flatwork lesson one day and a polework session next day.

I have noticed that schooling him Sunday / Wednesday / Saturday seemed to produce much better results.

My gut feeling is he’s got something slightly wrong muscle wise which means more exertion than normal makes him sore.

My vets havent been terribly helpful. Nothing obvious on bloods to indicate should test more. I have absolutely put in the leg work to say he is fit - hill work / polework / gallops / long hacks / boxing to new hacking / pleasure rides / schooling / raised poles / clinics / lessons etc. He's not really schooling much above Novice.
 

paddi22

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I had one competion horse that had very sore muscles, hated being groomed or touched even on neck. turned out it was afood alergy to some stuff that was in mix, for him it was alfafa andf peas. I switched to straights and he improved.

I also have one whos fascia (?spelling?) gets very tight. I think this is a whole new world of research that hasn't been explored yet by the looks of it. Im sure theres some underlying cause, but i just treat it with certain release techniques the physio said.
 

be positive

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I would be considering a degree of PSSM if it seems muscular, if the extra work causes him to very slightly tie up but not enough to really show during the work it could leave him tired and grumpy, they don't all have obvious symptoms and from my understanding it probably affects far more horses than are ever diagnosed or treated, it would be worth giving him vit e and cutting back on starch/ sugar to see how he is.
 

flying_high

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I would be considering a degree of PSSM if it seems muscular, if the extra work causes him to very slightly tie up but not enough to really show during the work it could leave him tired and grumpy, they don't all have obvious symptoms and from my understanding it probably affects far more horses than are ever diagnosed or treated, it would be worth giving him vit e and cutting back on starch/ sugar to see how he is.

thanks, I have been wondering about this. But I thought PPSM / EPSM was typically worse when not worked / moving?

He has a pretty low sugar / starch diet - copra, grass nuts, micronized linseed, minerals, grass (horse and pony seed), hay

He has 3,000UI vit E, and there is some oil in the copra / linseed.

Any idea what I'd want to up the vit E to too see a change? If was going to help? And oil? or Alcar?
 

flying_high

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I had one competion horse that had very sore muscles, hated being groomed or touched even on neck. turned out it was afood alergy to some stuff that was in mix, for him it was alfafa andf peas. I switched to straights and he improved.

I also have one whos fascia (?spelling?) gets very tight. I think this is a whole new world of research that hasn't been explored yet by the looks of it. Im sure theres some underlying cause, but i just treat it with certain release techniques the physio said.

Thanks, he's not an obviously tight facia horse, though he is a complete clown and fidgets, and is into everything with no patience.

He's pretty much fed straights - grass nuts / grass chaff / copra (coconut meal), micronized linseed, minerals.
 

SEL

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PSSM rules my horsey life! What breed is your horse? There is a simple test the vets can do to find out if the muscles are stressed by exercise. Take blood sample for CK levels first thing in the morning. Then you need to lunge @ trot / canter for 30 mins before putting back in stable. Vet returns after 5 hours to re-test CK levels.

If there's a v big rise between the 2 blood tests then it's a sign there's a problem.

I would also consider stripping back the diet for a few weeks and seeing if there's improvement. For instance leave linseed out for 2 weeks but keep everything else the same. One of my myopathy horses can't tolerate it for some reason, but I've heard of horses struggling with copra too.

There are a raft of tests for genetic muscular issues coming out of the US. You can test for PSSM 1 in this country easily.
 

DabDab

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He does sound incredibly like my horse (who has pssm). Like yours, certain things take a lot out of him - I've resigned myself to the fact that he will never be able to comfortably do two dressage tests in a day. And a fun ride for instance will take a lot out of him, but a 3-4 hour hack is fine. Something to do with the adrenaline and travelling maybe, I don't know.

He's funny, as he does improve with more regular work, but not necessarily with a greater quantity of work iyswim? I sort of have to work him like a body builder or sprinter - a gentle warm up, followed by short, higher intensity work. Schooling sessions are 30-40mins max, and that keeps him in his happy place (he also has a very expressive face 😉)

Feed wise he has roughly 6000 IU of vit e and alcar in his feed after exercise.

When he's struggling his issues show up well in the CK test described by SEL, so I would say definitely worth asking your vet about doing it.
 

flying_high

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Thanks so it is possible for a horse that seems sore after exertion to have PPSM. I thought PPSM was associated with not keeping moving?
 

flying_high

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My horse is also very attention seeking / makes repetitive moments, easily stressed, struggles to stay still, fidgets etc. in stable / on yard / tied to lorry etc. Fairly normal in field though a bit annoying.

Except when he is sleepy. He’s like a very annoying 3 year old who is into EVERYTHING and needs to chew things but he’s not young.
 

DabDab

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Yeah, not keeping moving can cause problems too, particularly if they exert themselves and are then stood still afterwards, and even more so if it's cold. I always work mine before turning out.

Just general good muscle management really, it's just you don't have as much room to get away with things.
 

DabDab

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My horse is also very attention seeking / makes repetitive moments, easily stressed, struggles to stay still, fidgets etc. in stable / on yard / tied to lorry etc. Fairly normal in field though a bit annoying.

Except when he is sleepy. He’s like a very annoying 3 year old who is into EVERYTHING and needs to chew things but he’s not young.

Different horses have different quirks when they are a bit stressed/uneasy. I know my big lad is a bit off when he gets very clingy and needy. Whereas my mare does random fast movements followed by standing still and zoning out, like she's trying to meditate or something, bless her (she's not generally stressy, but there's a particular bird or prey call here at night sometimes that she hates)
 

gunnergundog

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You can test for PSSM1 for £30 with a hair sample via Animal Genetics UK. Raised AST & CK levels are unfortunately not experienced by all PSSM2 (p3, p4) horses, so that would be inconclusive as is the hair test that you can get done in Germany via CAG GmbH in Tubingen. The only sure way is via muscle biopsy.

Grass sugar levels can have an impact for sure. Unfortunately, every horse seems to be slightly different and levels of supplements that work for one don't for another - it is very hit and miss and means you need to experiment.
 

SEL

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Any ideas how being grass affected eg muscles tighter when grass flushes ties in?

I've seen a warmblood who was definitely struggling muscle wise with grass flushes - but her owner wasn't interested in any form of testing so she was passed on as a 'stroppy mare'. For my pssm 1 mare grass flushes make her stiff and grumpy. She's often full of energy but just can't translate it into nice forward going ridden work. We often end up with a frustrated bucking display.

Exercise tolerance and PSSM is still poorly understood IMO. Mine often feels better to ride if she's had a day off, but the risk of her tying up is much higher. I've given up lessons and clinics now because even at her fittest we hit 45 mins and she's completely done in. Given it can take 20 mins to warm up we're not the best pupils!

In your position I'd start with high levels of natural vitamin E. Dr Valberg has a paper somewhere showing that deficiencies can present like a myopathy. I'd also do the genetic test because it's so cheap to rule type 1 in or out.
 

flying_high

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I've seen a warmblood who was definitely struggling muscle wise with grass flushes - but her owner wasn't interested in any form of testing so she was passed on as a 'stroppy mare'. For my pssm 1 mare grass flushes make her stiff and grumpy. She's often full of energy but just can't translate it into nice forward going ridden work. We often end up with a frustrated bucking display.

Exercise tolerance and PSSM is still poorly understood IMO. Mine often feels better to ride if she's had a day off, but the risk of her tying up is much higher. I've given up lessons and clinics now because even at her fittest we hit 45 mins and she's completely done in. Given it can take 20 mins to warm up we're not the best pupils!

In your position I'd start with high levels of natural vitamin E. Dr Valberg has a paper somewhere showing that deficiencies can present like a myopathy. I'd also do the genetic test because it's so cheap to rule type 1 in or out.

thanks, is natural important. I noted that forage plus do two, and one is half the price as the other, but the UI looked the same? I am currently feeding 3,000IU Vitamin E (acetate adsorbate) from Equinaturals as part of a balancer mix.

I am confused what other than price is different between these two - https://forageplus.co.uk/product/vitamin-e-oil-natural/ and https://forageplus.co.uk/product/vitamin-e-oil-synthetic/

The RDAs are the same, and the amounts says provides is the same. I thought doubled dose of synthetic.

Also ALCAR looks expensive to trial? - https://forageplus.co.uk/product/acetyl-l-carnitine/
 

be positive

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We saw an improvement within days, I think the mare had a few days on vit e before the alcar arrived but the difference in her muscles was obvious so quickly it had to be the supplements and not our imagination.
 

flying_high

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We saw an improvement within days, I think the mare had a few days on vit e before the alcar arrived but the difference in her muscles was obvious so quickly it had to be the supplements and not our imagination.

Thanks, he's a bit up and down to be sure I think. I know increased grass makes muscles and behaviour worse, and I have realised exertion and lorry trips leads to a flat and grumpy next day. That said he's quite expressive so he'll probably communicate.
 

paddy555

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Thanks, he's a bit up and down to be sure I think. I know increased grass makes muscles and behaviour worse, and I have realised exertion and lorry trips leads to a flat and grumpy next day. That said he's quite expressive so he'll probably communicate.

I would give 10,000iu per day of natural vit E to test for improvement. Quality is important with vit E. Not all vit e products are created equal. I use the equimins oil which has produced good results.
Exertion makes things worse. Mine went down after trotting up a hill. He wasn't even being worked hard but it brought things to a head and I had to sort it. In lorry trips a horse has to stand still and cannot move around. That doesn't help. Are you rugging? One of the keys for mine is rugging. He is over rugged. Tonight for example he is in a 450g rambo varilayer. (shelter and yard) He uses his shelter a lot but is never shut in a stable at night so he can wander and keep moving. He has an exercise sheet every time ridden and ATM it is a very thick exercise sheet to keep him warm.
alcar may be useful but I would do one thing at a time to try and find what works best. If your vet blood tested were the CK and AST levels totally normal?
 

SEL

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Needs to be natural vitamin E because horses don't process synthetic well apparently. I use forageplus because powders are easier for the yard to add when I'm not there.

I'm another who is rugging up right now. I think our layers are around 350 tonight with minus 2 forecast.

I'm afraid heterozygous still means they can potentially be symptomatic. The gene testing is reliable but it can't tell you the extent to which the horse will struggle.
 

flying_high

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I would give 10,000iu per day of natural vit E to test for improvement. Quality is important with vit E. Not all vit e products are created equal. I use the equimins oil which has produced good results.
Exertion makes things worse. Mine went down after trotting up a hill. He wasn't even being worked hard but it brought things to a head and I had to sort it. In lorry trips a horse has to stand still and cannot move around. That doesn't help. Are you rugging? One of the keys for mine is rugging. He is over rugged. Tonight for example he is in a 450g rambo varilayer. (shelter and yard) He uses his shelter a lot but is never shut in a stable at night so he can wander and keep moving. He has an exercise sheet every time ridden and ATM it is a very thick exercise sheet to keep him warm.
alcar may be useful but I would do one thing at a time to try and find what works best. If your vet blood tested were the CK and AST levels totally normal?

I’ve hopefully attached blood test results. Vet considered results effectively normal.
 

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flying_high

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Needs to be natural vitamin E because horses don't process synthetic well apparently. I use forageplus because powders are easier for the yard to add when I'm not there.

I'm another who is rugging up right now. I think our layers are around 350 tonight with minus 2 forecast.

I'm afraid heterozygous still means they can potentially be symptomatic. The gene testing is reliable but it can't tell you the extent to which the horse will struggle.
Thanks both. Interesting re rugs. I rug him a lot less than my older horse, and less than the lady I bought him off. I’m not fan of over rugging but it’s worth an experiment.

I make huge effort to keep my older horse with weak SI warm. So can do similar for this horse.

I don’t tend to rug him in lorry as he over heats and sweats even with windows all open but maybe that’s part of why stiff after travelling? He always seems warm.
 

paddy555

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as they say CK is a little high but compared to mine who started over 2k nothing much. As you have to do something I would test for PSSM using management. Whatever the test results are it is a management disease. There as no pills to cure it. There is a FB PSSM group that is really good if you need more info.
For mine the solution has been:- alfalfa pellets, copra and micro linseed. (Try to keep the protein up) a good supplement. If you are not already doing make sure he has a supplement that includes selenium. (don't buy a supp or vit e with selenium in it as you will overdose selenium) salt, and mine gets equishure for his guts which makes a tremendous difference. High dose vit E. No stabling but wandering yarded at night and the rugging I have already mentioned. If you feed 10000iu of vit e per day you should see results in a week. Mine became nicer in a couple of days. In a week he was normal. It was very conclusive and others has mentioned this sort of result. However you have to get the vit e high to get a conclusive result. I don't consider my horse's warmth or views when rugging. For him it is essential. If yours gets hot trying to get excessive rugs over the hindquarters but a lighter rug over the rest of him. I would never travel for example with a good rug and breaks to walk out of the lorry. I exercise daily. Exercise is vital. I would try an hours walking daily (to cut out controversial exercise) and see it you get any results and don't forget the exercise sheet. Excessive warm ups before working him and much longer cooling down periods after work. Hope some of that gives you some ideas. Everyone is different and it is a case of finding a regime that works if you have PSSM.
 

flying_high

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I’ve hopefully attached blood test results. Vet considered results effectively normal.

The vet didn’t think the results were enough to test further. I think there was a partial mitigation for muscles enzymes being up that was also taken into account. That is
as they say CK is a little high but compared to mine who started over 2k nothing much. As you have to do something I would test for PSSM using management. Whatever the test results are it is a management disease. There as no pills to cure it. There is a FB PSSM group that is really good if you need more info.
For mine the solution has been:- alfalfa pellets, copra and micro linseed. (Try to keep the protein up) a good supplement. If you are not already doing make sure he has a supplement that includes selenium. (don't buy a supp or vit e with selenium in it as you will overdose selenium) salt, and mine gets equishure for his guts which makes a tremendous difference. High dose vit E. No stabling but wandering yarded at night and the rugging I have already mentioned. If you feed 10000iu of vit e per day you should see results in a week. Mine became nicer in a couple of days. In a week he was normal. It was very conclusive and others has mentioned this sort of result. However you have to get the vit e high to get a conclusive result. I don't consider my horse's warmth or views when rugging. For him it is essential. If yours gets hot trying to get excessive rugs over the hindquarters but a lighter rug over the rest of him. I would never travel for example with a good rug and breaks to walk out of the lorry. I exercise daily. Exercise is vital. I would try an hours walking daily (to cut out controversial exercise) and see it you get any results and don't forget the exercise sheet. Excessive warm ups before working him and much longer cooling down periods after work. Hope some of that gives you some ideas. Everyone is different and it is a case of finding a regime that works if you have PSSM.


Thanks, how do you decide the basis to rug then, if not by gauging the horse? Or do you gauge the horse and go a bit higher?

You mention getting out and walking when travelling? Even relatively local journeys? 1hr 20 minutes would be about the longest we do.

I have owned him from last November, but he was only partly in work over the winter. I think he is NOT an exercise sheet fan. Will work on this.

I have ordered vitamin E to trial.

I have pulled hair to do genetics test. But I am wondering if worth doing, when he is a warmblood, and statistically the odds of him being type 1 seem very low.

I have just remembered when I went to try him, his previous owner spent what felt like an extremely long time warming him up slowly in long and low, before asking any more from him.
 

paddy555

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The vet didn’t think the results were enough to test further. I think there was a partial mitigation for muscles enzymes being up that was also taken into account. That is



Thanks, how do you decide the basis to rug then, if not by gauging the horse? Or do you gauge the horse and go a bit higher?

You mention getting out and walking when travelling? Even relatively local journeys? 1hr 20 minutes would be about the longest we do.

I have owned him from last November, but he was only partly in work over the winter. I think he is NOT an exercise sheet fan. Will work on this.

I have ordered vitamin E to trial.

I have pulled hair to do genetics test. But I am wondering if worth doing, when he is a warmblood, and statistically the odds of him being type 1 seem very low.

I have just remembered when I went to try him, his previous owner spent what felt like an extremely long time warming him up slowly in long and low, before asking any more from him.

your final para makes me wonder.

I would probably try a strict PSSM regime for a couple of weeks and then reconsider the hair test. You may already have an answer by then. Whatever the type of PSSM it is a case of making management work.

Sorry to upset your boy, exercise sheet is a must. Mine has a Horseware fleece on the warmer winter days and for ones like yesterday (frost) he has the back end of a 250g masta rug that I cut off and made into an exercise sheet. We don't stop and gossip out riding. He is kept moving.

What you do for things like travelling is trial and error. Look at it from a common sense POV. If YOU were likely to have muscle pain standing still may not help it in many cases. You may be able to do it for short periods, with say a hot water bottle on your back you may manage longer periods. It is a case of trying and see if you can find an answer. He may be fine if rugged, give it a go. Whatever you do keep a diary. Every slightest thing. Once you get a pattern you can see how to plan.

For rugging mine now has a 450g rambo wug at night and will have it on until at least end of next Mar when depending on the weather we may go down to 250g. In the days were warmer he gets a rambo 250g wug. If frost and colder he keeps the 450g. For the last month due to it being very warm in the days he has had an amigo 100g. I find these sort of rugs to be light even when wet and very breathable. He never comes in wet from over heating. He feels warm under the rug. To my mind better for him to be a bit warm and not in muscle pain, I no longer put a sweat rug on after riding but just put the rambo straight on and he dries through it. For mine no time without rug, saddle off/rug on. (I am in S W England)


You need to test everything. Some on here don't need rugging, some like mine do a lot better with it.

As an example of the need for detailed care mine needs to be ridden daily in winter. He was ridden Mon, yesterday we had to go out and he was not ridden.Today (Wed) he was grumpy when I got up. Difficult to get him to eat and he was stressed. (this is unusual). He was stiff for the first part of the ride. Just that one small lapse on my part caused him difficulty. Some PSSM's would have been fine, some not.

Are the hindquarters hard? I stand at the side and poke the quarters. I would expect them to be soft and easily moved.
 

flying_high

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Thanks Paddy555. There is a lot of wondering with this horse. He has many questions, and isn’t quite what I thought I bought. He's talented if I can consistently unlock him.

My gut feel is he’s not ungenerous as lots of people suggest, but that he has intermittent muscle pain. But trying to unpick it.

I have an arthritic 17hh, 20 year old horse with a weak SI he has to be worked 6 days a week, and kept warm and muscled. I have got my head around him!

I haven’t worked the younger (12) horse out yet. I am still trying to see the patterns.

He’s not yet clipped re using an exercise sheet, but will be clipped and wearing one from this weekend. I think once he is clipped upping the rugs, and the exercise sheets, and rugging whilst travelling will be easier.

I do have two fleece covered hotwater bottles tied together, that I used on a previous horse before working in winter.

The issue with travelling is that he over heats, making me reluctant to put anything on him (though of course I will once clipped).

I don’t think his hindquarters were hard this morning, but he was generally fine this morning, following light work Monday and Tuesday.

I will try the 10,000 IU vitamin E and Alcar and majorly upping the warmth at all times, and see how that goes.
 
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