Thrush or canker?!

B

Becki1802

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 August 2010
Messages
352
Location
Devon
Visit site
Hi,
I was just wondering whether anyone can tell me how you can tell the difference between the two?
I bought my horse back in Apr and had him vetted. The vet picked up 'thrush' in one of his back hooves but he was sound and passed the vet. I tried hard to keep them clean and I even scrubbed out his back feed with mild, skin safe disinfectant to kill any bacteria. I ask got some iodine solution from the vet and applied this.
When the horse was shod by my farrier he said that he had a sheered heel on that foot. At the second shoeing his foot seemed much better but at the third it was much worse. The farrier says he has good horn growth on the other 3 but it is almost like the fourth is being 'eaten' by infection. It also bled when he touched it. He told me to get something that would dry out the frog.
I tried a type of purple spray that was meant to dry as a barrier but if anything it is now worse.
Today I bought NAF Profeet Rock Hard and their Profeet liquid for his feed. When I scrubbed the foot out though I noticed that where he had bled when shod was now white. There are two white areas.
Reading online thrush is black. Canker seems to fit the description more... white/cauliflower like. Can thrush be white?!
He is sound but it is sore to touch. His feet don't smell which is characteristic of both infections.
Any thoughts? Advice?
 
Hi, thrush is indeed generally balck, but the main difference between the two is thrush removes frog tissue and canker generates tissue. Canker is very rare, I've only encountered it twice in ten years.
 
Thanks... that sounds like canker is unlikely - which based on what I've read would be really good news as Canker is evil!!

I've got a few pics from before the farrier last came showing the white. There is more white now where T bled hence I'm so worried!

picture.php


picture.php


picture.php
 
That looks like it could well be canker to me. Our pony had canker last year. It started out with what we thought was thrush in her hooves, but it didn't seem to go away, whatever we did. Eventually, parts of the frog peeled away to show white mush (like porridge sort of), beneath. This mush bled easily if touched/sheered off by contact with the ground. A bit of skin peeled off by her heel to show the same (tiny area). Luckily, she survived, but it was a long haul as it spread to three hooves in total while she was at the vets, before finally it turned around and began to clear up. If you have any doubt at all, you need to get a vet out, because if it is canker, it really does matter that you catch it early.

ETA: our pony's canker never smelled at all.
 
Thanks! Made a few calls and I am now getting a second opinion from my mums farrier who I used for years until I moved areas and I trust him completely. My current farrier is good but very young & hasn't done much surgical shoeing etc. If I'm still not convinced after Rob's visit then I will definitely get the vet out.

How did your vet treat your pony in the end? How long did it take? Was she lame during treatment? Was she at the vets the whole time? I can find v little on what happens if it is Canker! I am worrying about it a lot!! I love my beastie so much but christ he is high maintenance!! Since I have had him things have gone wrong one after another!!
 
Becki1802 said:
Thanks! Made a few calls and I am now getting a second opinion from my mums farrier who I used for years until I moved areas and I trust him completely. My current farrier is good but very young & hasn't done much surgical shoeing etc. If I'm still not convinced after Rob's visit then I will definitely get the vet out.

How did your vet treat your pony in the end? How long did it take? Was she lame during treatment? Was she at the vets the whole time? I can find v little on what happens if it is Canker! I am worrying about it a lot!! I love my beastie so much but christ he is high maintenance!! Since I have had him things have gone wrong one after another!!
Click to expand...

Firstly, very few people have seen even more than one or two cases in their lives. My farrier has seen two incl my pony, my vet one, and the vet (from same practice) who we got out initially a few more because she worked in the USA for a while where it's more common. If it is canker, the frog tissue, heel tissue and other hoof tissue turns into semolina/porridge type mush, from the inside out. Eventually the normal tissue on the outside peels off, and there's just mush type tissue (which comes off relatively easily) underneath. This mush bleeds terribly when it comes off, and the hoof looks awful. When you take the mush off, it just regrows as mush again, not as normal tissue. The 'cure' is to get rid of the canker tissue and cut/burn back to healthy tissue sufficiently far enough from the canker tissue margin that (hopefully) normal tissue grows again, rather than canker mush.

Some vets resect the hoof, cutting beyond the canker tissue some way to try to promote healthy growth, and others burn the canker tissue away, and some way into the margin, with chemicals. Whether the treatment used works, depends on whether you can keep the hoof infection free (our pony had IV antibiotics to start with, then powders until she was better), and whether the immune system feels inclined to return to normal. From what I could work out from talking to vet & internet, canker is a sort of over-reaction to an infection, whereby the body starts attacking itself. There is no one treatment that works for all horses, what worked for us hasn't for other people, and it took a long time. Our vet was constantly in touch with others who had canker cases, with all the vet hospitals who'd seen cases, reading the literature etc.

Our vet chose the chemical burning away method, using copper sulphate (and other stuff I don't know name of now), although he couldn't use that on the heel, where we had the biggest problem. Ended up using steroid cream and Intrasite gel on the heels, and that eventually worked. It got way worse before it got better. She went into horsepital with one frog with obvious canker, and one heel bulb where there was a tiny nail-head sized bit of skin peeled off to show canker tissue, and ended up with it in 3 hooves total before it started to get better. It was easier for us to have her in horsepital because initially she needed the IV anitibiotics, and because we knew it could take trying several different treatments before one worked - we wanted the vet to see what was happening on each dressing change, so if something wasn't working, it was changed asap.

When she went in, we were prepared that she might not come out again (if the canker gets deep enough it reaches the structures supporting the pedal bone), but wanted to give her the best chance. We agreed that if she was unhappy/in pain, we'd think about calling it a day, but that never happened and she remained sound despite the canker. She also took to box rest very well, and these factors gave us the time we needed for the vets to find something that worked for her, and for her to make a full recovery. The initial hoof grew oddly due to the canker and treatment, and is still not quite normal, but well on its way, and she's jumping and enjoying life as a normal pony once more. She spent five months in horsepital, and in total about 9 months on complete box rest. We still spray her hooves with copper sulphate/formal saline solution (from vet), every day, and will need to do so ever after.

If it is canker, you'll know just by touching that white area on the frog - it will be soft and mushy. If it is, best of luck with treatment, and any more questions etc - feel free to PM.
 
Oh god, that is such a lot to go through. He is great in his box as before I had him he'd never been turned out. Now he has settled in the field he loves going out so I think 5 months would break his and my heart! We have just got to the point that we have a good bond - he wouldn't hack at all when I first got him and I have just got his confidence up. I think that he'd have to go to horsepital as I don't think my livery yard or I could keep up if he needed antibiotics all the time and the dressings changed constantly.

The white tissue is definitely soft and kind of squidgey. I can't tell too much as he whips it away if you touch it too much. It doesn't bleed at being touched as such but I know the farrier found his foot bled when he had barely even touched it and it is at that site that the second white patch has now appeared.

He is obviously in pain as he is stroppy when shod on that back foot when the nails are being knocked in but he is really good with everything else. Will it hurt him to have the white mush cut away?

Oh and was this all covered by your insurance?!

If this is canker, I will be soooooooo pissed off at the vet that told me it was thrush at his 5 stage vetting especially as I couldn't use my vet as it was the sellers vet too!
The worst case prognosis doesn't bare thinking about - heart broken wouldn't be the word.

Thank you for the advice so far - I will keep you posted.
 
Becki1802 said:
The white tissue is definitely soft and kind of squidgey. I can't tell too much as he whips it away if you touch it too much. It doesn't bleed at being touched as such but I know the farrier found his foot bled when he had barely even touched it and it is at that site that the second white patch has now appeared.

He is obviously in pain as he is stroppy when shod on that back foot when the nails are being knocked in but he is really good with everything else. Will it hurt him to have the white mush cut away?

Oh and was this all covered by your insurance?!

If this is canker, I will be soooooooo pissed off at the vet that told me it was thrush at his 5 stage vetting...
Click to expand...

- we couldn't get near her hoof when the white mush was there, she'd try to kick us if we persisted in wanting to touch the canker tissue. Once her treatment had started, she was much better so the treatment itself seemed to help it hurt less.

- Ours was covered, fully. Your insurance might query it as pre-existing due to the vetting if they're being fussy. If they do, you should be able to sue for the cost of treatment from vet who vetted him.
 
He is quite good considering it must be really hurting him! Just jumps around occasionally but he will let me and the farrier faff around with it within reason.

The vet didn't write it on his vetting certificate so I may just have to be careful when I talk to the insurance. I don't use that vet anyway so there it is officially only discovered in the last fe weeks. There is a part of me that would like to sue the idiot who misdiagnosed it at the vetting though!!

I will get the second farriers opinion (as it is free - he is a family friend as he has been shoeing for us so long) and then if he says it is or there is any doubt I will call the vet out from there. I have been reading lots this evening and he consistent thing in the articles is that there is no one cure!! I think the aggressive trim with the freezing option then packing with metronidazole would be my instinct as a start!

God it is depressing that it might be canker!!
 
Actually I thought thrush was actually white but I may well be totally wrong. The black smelly stuff we all associate with thrush is what I understand to be necrotic (dead) tissue caused by the thrush and other bacterial infection that often takes hold secondary to thrush.
I have a mare who had thrush deep in her central cleft in her frog (which was overgrown). She was very tender when being touched and even a bit pottery when walking. On parting the cleft a white fluffy sort of growth could be seen. This was the first time I'd seen the thrush itself. I believe thrush is a kind of yeast growth.
I treated her with twice weekly soaks of dilute milton solution minimum of 10 minutes and then crammed canestan 2% cream into the cleft and over the whole frog. Twice daily, I scrubbed and sprayed the frog with dilute milton and then applied canestan. This worked well. There are other things to soak in like apple cider vinegar solution, cleantrax etc. and I believe many people have had success using sudocream daily after scrubbing. I also hear good reports about redhorse products but haven't used them myself.

Mta... just seen your pics and the white thrush in my mare wasn't exposed to the air like that it was only visible the first time I parted the cleft. I'd get the vet to look tbh anyway for a definite diagnosis.
Hope it is thrush.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks Amanda! I hope it is thrush as the canker thing is really worrying me! I will get it checked by another farrier & then the vet if in any doubt & I will let you all know!! In the meantime I'll keep scrubbing them out & painting on the Profeet!

It might still tie in with your description as the white has only appeared where the frog is very damaged and has effectively broken away. In the pictures it has just been scrubbed clean so it will have just become exposed to the air. The bit in the centre seems to have improved since he was surgically shod with bar (D shaped shoes) to try to stabilise his heel!

Why, oh, why are horses such a worry!!! I will be gutted if he needs surgery and loads of time off. We have made so much progress I was just getting ready for the indoor season!!

Thanks for everyones advice and fingers crossed everyone for thrush and not canker!!!
 
From the little net reading I've done canker seems to be an infection too caused by a bacterium. I wonder if this is correct? If so the soaks in the meantime may be worth doing anyway. I have used tractor and 4x4 inner tubes (free) from the garage as soaking boots. Soaks help with thrush because the milton, cleantrax, apple cider vinegar or whatever you use is in contact for minutes so has more chance of killing infection than just washing and scrubbing. Wash and scub at least daily though between soaks.

Mta... stuff for soaks...
cleantrax here. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/cleantrax.html
Milton dilution 1:10 and I believe borax (from chemist) 2 heaped tbsp in a gallon of water weekly is also something that is helpful for thrush.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Becki1802, when you know for certain what it is I think it's a great photo to go on the sticky thread (Post pics of your horses conditions) at the top of this page.
 
Firstly I haven't read all the posts, (haven't got time right now!) but was drawn by the title of this thread! I didn't realise canker was something horses got?? It is a common problem in birds from pigeons to hawks, and causes what appears to be a fungal growth in the crop, it can (if caught early enough) I believe be treated fairly easily, you could try contacting a local wildlife hospital and see what they use to treat it?? Although I'm sure your vet will know just as much?
 
amandap said:
Becki1802, when you know for certain what it is I think it's a great photo to go on the sticky thread (Post pics of your horses conditions) at the top of this page.
Click to expand...

Ok Amanda will do; I am officially on a mission to find what this is and the difference between Thrush and Canker. It is a horrible position to be in and once I know I will share any info I get from the farrier and vet so that maybe someone else won't have to go through as much worry. Updates to follow and will take more pics as and when we have progress!!
 
Becki1802 said:
He is quite good considering it must be really hurting him! Just jumps around occasionally but he will let me and the farrier faff around with it within reason.

The vet didn't write it on his vetting certificate so I may just have to be careful when I talk to the insurance. I don't use that vet anyway so there it is officially only discovered in the last fe weeks. There is a part of me that would like to sue the idiot who misdiagnosed it at the vetting though!!

I will get the second farriers opinion (as it is free - he is a family friend as he has been shoeing for us so long) and then if he says it is or there is any doubt I will call the vet out from there. I have been reading lots this evening and he consistent thing in the articles is that there is no one cure!! I think the aggressive trim with the freezing option then packing with metronidazole would be my instinct as a start!

God it is depressing that it might be canker!!
Click to expand...

Hi Becki

I'd say you might be as well to get the vet to take a look - we had a horse that had what looked like a severe thrush/canker and it turned into a condition called coronary band dystrophy. Theres some good advice online if you google this - but early diagnosis/treatment for any of these conditions is essential. good luck.
 
Any news Becki? No pressure meant btw, I'm just dying to know what the cause is and hoping it can be sorted relatively simply.
 
Hi all!
Sorry about the delay! The horse and I are literally just back from my parents! The farrier came out on Tuesday and he was great.

He is shocked that the horse isn't lame on at least 2 maybe 3 of his feet!!

Firstly T has sheered heels and as a result the bulbs of his heels are very sore. His recommendation is the surgical shoes currently on his hinds are put on all round to stabilise his heels. The farrier says that it is a sign his feet have been neglected and poorly shod for a long time and that his feett have been literally tearing themselves apart.

His worst sheered heel is the one that is photographed. This has torn very badly and it has then opened it up to infection and the infection is now eating the frog.

He cannot say 100% whether it is or is not canker or whether it is a very nasty thrush infection. He thinks it is thrush and it is very traumatised so it is growing granulated tissue hence the white appearance. There are some signs of canker such as a powder appearance to the foot. However, it bleeds easily so has a good supply of blood suggesting the tissue is alive unlike canker. He also says that canker growths are much more rapid than I'm experiencing. It is very rare and in over 10 years of shoeing he has only seen it confirmed once.

He has trimmed the frog and says this will need doing frequently and aggressively. His recommendation is to treat it as though it is canker. He has cut away the unhealthy tissue and we are applying metronidazole gel to the heel and frog daily. Keeping the foot clean and dry as much as possible. He can be ridden and get it dirty so long as I clean it up and treat it straight after. I also need to feed an additive - he has recommended NAF Profeet to improve the horn quality.

Importantly he has told me to treat it as though it is highly contagious - it needs surgical gloves on when I touch it. I must do this foot last and use different tools for this foot and keep them separate. I've already bought a new hoofpick for the yard as we have previously shared! & he has a set labelled up for the poorly hoof only.

I now have the joy of trying to dress his foot so that the anti-biotics are protected to treat the area. He doesn't need box rest but he needs it keeping clean and dry. We have been trying duct tape which works until his shoe wears through the tape. I've looked at various boots but they all seem to be designed for no shoes. Any suggestions anyone?! I've been considering the hoof wraps but at £17.50 ea they only last 7-10 days. Or hoofeeze boot but not sure that will cope with shoes?!
We may be doing this for 8 weeks or more and the horse is already getting naughty with kicking out/waving it around when I try to even pick it out.

He wants photos emailing to him in 2 weeks time. He says to take a photo per week to allow me to compare.

It is going to cost a fortune to put right - an extra £50 per shoeing. The metronidizole is £40 for 60g - reckon it'll last 2 weeks at most! Profeet £42 for 2 weeks. He is one high maintenance horse - good job I love him to bits!!

On a positive note - we jumped last Friday and won the 85cm class - that's £10 towards his bills! lol!

Thanks for asking after him. I'll keep updating you!!!
 
Thanks for updating us and I'm glad you have a treatment plan. I'll keep my fingers well and truly crossed for you both.
 
Glad to hear you're getting somewhere, and really hope the first treatment you try works. Our white stuff bled bucket-loads too.

If it helps, the way to keep stuff in hoof and hoof bandaged, is to wrap it in vetwrap, then put the thick wide silver/black tape round it (that you get at B&Q). You have to do one of two things with the tape - either make a lattice (strips one way then strips at right angles to original ones so double layered) on a stable door that is wider than the hoof sole, then attach that with more tape, or if you get your feed in plastic bags (happy hoof etc), cut out a section from the bag, then tape that on over the vetwrap. That was the way the vets showed us, and it worked better than anything we'd done before - and she was shod.
 
Just had a thought about metronidazole cream. I know it's a very stong anti bacterial but I wonder if it kills yeast and fungus too? Just wondering because your Farrier thinks thrush may be involved.
 
Apparently it can help in the treatment of both?! & keeping it clean and dry should help?! I'll give it the two weeks the farrier said and if in doubt I'll call the vet out. A vet has of course done the metronidazole prescription but on the farrier's advice!
From what I know it is usually an anaerobic bacteria making metronidazole a good choice as a topical antibiotic but I'm no vet!
 
Last edited:
Nasty. Poor boy.

RE boots - more boots will fit easily over a shod foot, they just wear out far quicker. HOWEVER, if he has prominant heels and they're sore, most of the trainer type boots may rub them. But they are ideal for medicating feet. It would be worth getting a pair a size or so bigger than he needs then padding them with cheap Asda ownbrand nappies (10p each). The easiest would be Cavallo Simple boots as they are so easy to put on and off - have a look on ebay for a second hand pair - you could get them for £50 and they will last 8 weeks on box rest.
 
Thanks Kalli - I'll measure his foot and have a look on ebay. I bought some nappies today actually I thought if I pad it in the hope he goes through the dressing less quickly!!
I can't believe I have such a high maintenance horse!! lol!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top